Samsung's cross over between SLR and comptact camera

Art Vandelay II · 03-02-2009, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by dave sz

please explain to me how or why the mount being 35 years old matters?

Had it been designed with EVIL systems in mind 35 years ago it wouldn't matter. However since the digital revolution and microprocessors the size of a pinky nail where hardly imaginable at the time it was designed I think it's time to just start over from scratch and go forward with a mount that works better with EVIL systems instead of retro fitting 70's technology. Should Tesla Motors have used the frame of a Datsun 240z for their Telsa Roadster?

The K-Mount is a great mount for SLR's (as is the F Nikon Mount), but these cameras are not SLR's. For SLR's keep the K-Mount; it works fine for that purpose, but these cameras are a whole different beast.

junyo · 03-02-2009, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Art Vandelay II

Had it been designed with EVIL systems in mind 35 years ago it wouldn't matter. However since the digital revolution and microprocessors the size of a pinky nail where hardly imaginable at the time it was designed I think it's time to just start over from scratch and go forward with a mount that works better with EVIL systems instead of retro fitting 70's technology. Should Tesla Motors have used the frame of a Datsun 240z for their Telsa Roadster?

The K-Mount is a great mount for SLR's (as is the F Nikon Mount), but these cameras are not SLR's. For SLR's keep the K-Mount; it works fine for that purpose, but these cameras are a whole different beast.

Your Tesla Motors analogy doesn't fit, since chassis are usually distinct to a purpose, so much so that a single manufacturer might have several platforms. Outside of Pentax and Yashica/Kyocera/Contax, I don't know of any camera makers that make more than one mount. A better question would be should Tesla Motors have used wheels as their road interface, since wheels are thousands of years old and arguably more advanced ground effect and air-cushion technologies now exist?

Part of the purchasing decision with an interchangable lens camera is compatibility with existing systems, or the viability of the new system. It's great that they're making snazzy new micro cams, but at the end of the day they're going to have a tough row to hoe if they try and put a completely new system on the market, especially in this financial climate. No matter what the features are, a new lens system that requires photographers to duplicate their existing glass has almost zero upside. This camera ain't that cool or that thin. Add the that the cost of the new glass will not be cheap, since the economies of scale would be minuscule manufacturing lens for a single camera for a single maker (because as of now, Samsung's SLRs still use K mount). Nikon or Canon couldn't pull that off, let alone Samsung.

If car manufacturers a hundred years ago had known about the geopolitical and environmental issues inherent to petroleum based fuels maybe they would have settled on hydrogen as a fuel, and built the distribution infrastructure for it. But they didn't, so we have gas stations on every corner, and any new fuel system faces the enormous hurdle of building a ubiquitous refueling network before their system is viable. A camera maker faces the same problem.

Ask the guys that sold Divx DVD players how well a proprietary system worked for them. Ask Sony how well MiniDisc and UMD worked out. K mount is old, but a) still very capable, and b) very widely deployed, so it's a workable (not perfect) de facto standard.

Jodokast96 · 03-02-2009, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden

Ah, it is a Konica mount, finally a new body for my old Hexanon lenses!!!

*

*Konicas own mount (before Minolta swallowed them) had the lock button on the right side and a ~40mm focal distance.

Same here! Though I've yet to actually use the Konica kit I got from a neighbor last year.

messthetics · 03-02-2009, 04:49 PM

I put my hands in the air and yelled YES!!!! when I saw this on dpreview.

This is the camera I wanted! This is going to be so great for urban photography and I can always just keep it in my jacket pocket. Thanks so much for making what pentax decided to ignore samsung! Brilliant idea and you will have a LOT of us buying this!

falconeye · 03-02-2009, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by thibs

and can be reverse engineered although... that what Sigma does, and not always succesfully ...

Encryption normally cannot be reverse engineered.
That reverse engineering was possible in tha past is due to the fact that nothing in the protocols was ever encrypted. Coded yes. Encrypted no.

RaduA · 03-02-2009, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by touchmyichi

I put my hands in the air and yelled YES!!!! when I saw this on dpreview.

This is the camera I wanted! This is going to be so great for urban photography and I can always just keep it in my jacket pocket. Thanks so much for making what pentax decided to ignore samsung! Brilliant idea and you will have a LOT of us buying this!

The assumption that Pentax "didn't want to do this" is IMO very wrong. It just happens that giant electronics companies like Panasonic or Samsung have a lot more resources to pour into this "thing" which is clearly very different to a DSLR. I am talking about the new AF system, the fact that a very good EVF is paramount for success and the tightest integration possible of electronics inside for a minimum footprint. Add the video function in which Pentax also has little expertise.
Look at the half baked Sigma DP1 (a good image acquisition device but not a good camera) and you'll understand what I am saying. Pentax would of been outclassed by such a project and the only thing that matters now is whether or not they get to make the lenses for it.

Radu

**RuiC** · 03-02-2009, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden

You are right. So own hot shoe and probably own lens mount (???).
Does this mean Samsung is now going their own way (from Pentax)? Pure speculation...but why would they continue selling bulkier APS-C DSLRs that has not sold very well outside Korea if they go this way?

Who the heck will do their optics?

Originally posted by Spag

My guess is "Micro-K" mount!

Pentax had a patent applied for an adapter from Kaf2 to smaller mount retaining all auto functionality. Maybe it's time for it. Also the NX photo shows a lens release button allowing for such an adapter to use K lenses.
RuiC

vinzer · 03-02-2009, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by touchmyichi

I put my hands in the air and yelled YES!!!! when I saw this on dpreview.

This is the camera I wanted! This is going to be so great for urban photography and I can always just keep it in my jacket pocket. Thanks so much for making what pentax decided to ignore samsung! Brilliant idea and you will have a LOT of us buying this!

Well, good for you. I like the idea, but only if it includes in-body stabilization. I don't want to have to buy another bunch of lenses with IS for this. And hopefully it'll still take K-mount lenses via an adapter. I don't mind losing the small form-factor, but I do like the weight savings and possibly carry around small primes if smaller size is needed.

Das Boot · 03-02-2009, 06:45 PM

I took some images from DPReview and used the hot shoe as a way to make sure the two images were the same scale (the hot shoe is an ISO spec and has defined dimensions). I then took the two images and compared the size of the lens barrels. They are very close and with the ambiguity of the front of the Samsung lens makes me wonder if it is actually a lens and not a "wide" converter. Something to shorten the distance to the sensor through optics. Here's the overlay and some food for thought.

-Brian

vinzer · 03-03-2009, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by the_int21h

I took some images from DPReview and used the hot shoe as a way to make sure the two images were the same scale (the hot shoe is an ISO spec and has defined dimensions). I then took the two images and compared the size of the lens barrels. They are very close and with the ambiguity of the front of the Samsung lens makes me wonder if it is actually a lens and not a "wide" converter. Something to shorten the distance to the sensor through optics. Here's the overlay and some food for thought.

-Brian

Well, I do find that the Samsung's hotshoe in your overlay to be slightly wider than the Pentax, but not by much, though that might be the telling difference, hence the need for a new mount (micro-K or otherwise)?

Of course, my eyes may be deceiving me, too, but I do find a hint of difference between the width of the two hotshoes, so the Samsung EVIL should be a bit smaller in the overlay, still.

ogl · 03-03-2009, 06:30 AM

Samsung SEF-42A fits to NX

falconeye · 03-03-2009, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by the_int21h

if it is actually a lens and not a "wide" converter.

I think it is a wide angle lens, like 21mm. Wide angle lenses become very flat pancakes if the focal length and register distance are close to each other. So, 21mm on a Samsumg NX and 40mm on a K mount would both be flat pancakes.

lol101 · 03-03-2009, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by vinzer

Well, I do find that the Samsung's hotshoe in your overlay to be slightly wider than the Pentax, but not by much, though that might be the telling difference, hence the need for a new mount (micro-K or otherwise)?

.

This EVIL camera is obviously a 100% Samsung job and someone pointed to an interview dating from august 2008 where a Samsung exec said they were already developing such camera around their 14MP sensor for a while with a whole set of lenses dedicated to a new mount.

Hotshoe is not Pentax compatible, mount is not K-mount and the overall layout isn't similar to what Pentax ususaly does (no green button, S&A modes instead of Tv&Av, no Sv..., ...), hence my strong impression that this camera is completely out of the Pentax/Samsung collaboration.

It would be nice if Pentax got a similar camera out sometimes but this is not it.

Tana · 03-03-2009, 08:31 AM

Yeah.. The marriage between Pentax and Samsung seems no longer...

CFWhitman · 03-03-2009, 08:42 AM

While it would make sense for there to be a K-mount adapter for this camera, I don't know if it will happen.

Personally, if Pentax (or Samsung) made a camera like this and included a K-mount adapter that made up the difference in registration distance and retained full functionality with the current K mount, I would certainly find the camera interesting. I would even still find it somewhat interesting if they dropped the autofocus screw in favor of SDM only (although I could conceive of a focus motor and screw in the adapter as well).

03-02-2009, 04:30 PM	#63
Jodokast96 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Erial, NJ USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,134	Originally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Ah, it is a Konica mount, finally a new body for my old Hexanon lenses!!!* *Konicas own mount (before Minolta swallowed them) had the lock button on the right side and a ~40mm focal distance. Same here! Though I've yet to actually use the Konica kit I got from a neighbor last year.

03-02-2009, 04:49 PM	#64
messthetics Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 137	YES! I put my hands in the air and yelled YES!!!! when I saw this on dpreview. This is the camera I wanted! This is going to be so great for urban photography and I can always just keep it in my jacket pocket. Thanks so much for making what pentax decided to ignore samsung! Brilliant idea and you will have a LOT of us buying this!

03-02-2009, 06:45 PM	#69
Das Boot Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sparkle City, South Cackalacky Photos: Gallery Posts: 689	I took some images from DPReview and used the hot shoe as a way to make sure the two images were the same scale (the hot shoe is an ISO spec and has defined dimensions). I then took the two images and compared the size of the lens barrels. They are very close and with the ambiguity of the front of the Samsung lens makes me wonder if it is actually a lens and not a "wide" converter. Something to shorten the distance to the sensor through optics. Here's the overlay and some food for thought. -Brian Last edited by Das Boot; 03-02-2009 at 09:09 PM.

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03-02-2009, 03:05 PM	#61
Art Vandelay II Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 886	Originally posted by dave sz please explain to me how or why the mount being 35 years old matters? Had it been designed with EVIL systems in mind 35 years ago it wouldn't matter. However since the digital revolution and microprocessors the size of a pinky nail where hardly imaginable at the time it was designed I think it's time to just start over from scratch and go forward with a mount that works better with EVIL systems instead of retro fitting 70's technology. Should Tesla Motors have used the frame of a Datsun 240z for their Telsa Roadster? The K-Mount is a great mount for SLR's (as is the F Nikon Mount), but these cameras are not SLR's. For SLR's keep the K-Mount; it works fine for that purpose, but these cameras are a whole different beast.

03-02-2009, 04:24 PM	#62
junyo Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 418	Originally posted by Art Vandelay II Had it been designed with EVIL systems in mind 35 years ago it wouldn't matter. However since the digital revolution and microprocessors the size of a pinky nail where hardly imaginable at the time it was designed I think it's time to just start over from scratch and go forward with a mount that works better with EVIL systems instead of retro fitting 70's technology. Should Tesla Motors have used the frame of a Datsun 240z for their Telsa Roadster? The K-Mount is a great mount for SLR's (as is the F Nikon Mount), but these cameras are not SLR's. For SLR's keep the K-Mount; it works fine for that purpose, but these cameras are a whole different beast. Your Tesla Motors analogy doesn't fit, since chassis are usually distinct to a purpose, so much so that a single manufacturer might have several platforms. Outside of Pentax and Yashica/Kyocera/Contax, I don't know of any camera makers that make more than one mount. A better question would be should Tesla Motors have used wheels as their road interface, since wheels are thousands of years old and arguably more advanced ground effect and air-cushion technologies now exist? Part of the purchasing decision with an interchangable lens camera is compatibility with existing systems, or the viability of the new system. It's great that they're making snazzy new micro cams, but at the end of the day they're going to have a tough row to hoe if they try and put a completely new system on the market, especially in this financial climate. No matter what the features are, a new lens system that requires photographers to duplicate their existing glass has almost zero upside. This camera ain't that cool or that thin. Add the that the cost of the new glass will not be cheap, since the economies of scale would be minuscule manufacturing lens for a single camera for a single maker (because as of now, Samsung's SLRs still use K mount). Nikon or Canon couldn't pull that off, let alone Samsung. If car manufacturers a hundred years ago had known about the geopolitical and environmental issues inherent to petroleum based fuels maybe they would have settled on hydrogen as a fuel, and built the distribution infrastructure for it. But they didn't, so we have gas stations on every corner, and any new fuel system faces the enormous hurdle of building a ubiquitous refueling network before their system is viable. A camera maker faces the same problem. Ask the guys that sold Divx DVD players how well a proprietary system worked for them. Ask Sony how well MiniDisc and UMD worked out. K mount is old, but a) still very capable, and b) very widely deployed, so it's a workable (not perfect) de facto standard.

03-02-2009, 04:56 PM	#65
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by thibs and can be reverse engineered although... that what Sigma does, and not always succesfully ... Encryption normally cannot be reverse engineered. That reverse engineering was possible in tha past is due to the fact that nothing in the protocols was ever encrypted. Coded yes. Encrypted no.

03-02-2009, 05:00 PM	#66
RaduA Guest	Originally posted by touchmyichi I put my hands in the air and yelled YES!!!! when I saw this on dpreview. This is the camera I wanted! This is going to be so great for urban photography and I can always just keep it in my jacket pocket. Thanks so much for making what pentax decided to ignore samsung! Brilliant idea and you will have a LOT of us buying this! The assumption that Pentax "didn't want to do this" is IMO very wrong. It just happens that giant electronics companies like Panasonic or Samsung have a lot more resources to pour into this "thing" which is clearly very different to a DSLR. I am talking about the new AF system, the fact that a very good EVF is paramount for success and the tightest integration possible of electronics inside for a minimum footprint. Add the video function in which Pentax also has little expertise. Look at the half baked Sigma DP1 (a good image acquisition device but not a good camera) and you'll understand what I am saying. Pentax would of been outclassed by such a project and the only thing that matters now is whether or not they get to make the lenses for it. Radu

03-02-2009, 05:04 PM	#67
RuiC Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Lisboa - The best destination in Europe Posts: 633	Originally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden You are right. So own hot shoe and probably own lens mount (???). Does this mean Samsung is now going their own way (from Pentax)? Pure speculation...but why would they continue selling bulkier APS-C DSLRs that has not sold very well outside Korea if they go this way? Who the heck will do their optics? Originally posted by Spag My guess is "Micro-K" mount! Pentax had a patent applied for an adapter from Kaf2 to smaller mount retaining all auto functionality. Maybe it's time for it. Also the NX photo shows a lens release button allowing for such an adapter to use K lenses. RuiC

03-02-2009, 05:30 PM	#68
vinzer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 1,399	Originally posted by touchmyichi I put my hands in the air and yelled YES!!!! when I saw this on dpreview. This is the camera I wanted! This is going to be so great for urban photography and I can always just keep it in my jacket pocket. Thanks so much for making what pentax decided to ignore samsung! Brilliant idea and you will have a LOT of us buying this! Well, good for you. I like the idea, but only if it includes in-body stabilization. I don't want to have to buy another bunch of lenses with IS for this. And hopefully it'll still take K-mount lenses via an adapter. I don't mind losing the small form-factor, but I do like the weight savings and possibly carry around small primes if smaller size is needed.

03-03-2009, 06:04 AM	#70
vinzer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 1,399	Originally posted by the_int21h I took some images from DPReview and used the hot shoe as a way to make sure the two images were the same scale (the hot shoe is an ISO spec and has defined dimensions). I then took the two images and compared the size of the lens barrels. They are very close and with the ambiguity of the front of the Samsung lens makes me wonder if it is actually a lens and not a "wide" converter. Something to shorten the distance to the sensor through optics. Here's the overlay and some food for thought. -Brian Well, I do find that the Samsung's hotshoe in your overlay to be slightly wider than the Pentax, but not by much, though that might be the telling difference, hence the need for a new mount (micro-K or otherwise)? Of course, my eyes may be deceiving me, too, but I do find a hint of difference between the width of the two hotshoes, so the Samsung EVIL should be a bit smaller in the overlay, still.

03-03-2009, 06:30 AM	#71
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Samsung SEF-42A fits to NX

03-03-2009, 07:26 AM	#72
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by the_int21h if it is actually a lens and not a "wide" converter. I think it is a wide angle lens, like 21mm. Wide angle lenses become very flat pancakes if the focal length and register distance are close to each other. So, 21mm on a Samsumg NX and 40mm on a K mount would both be flat pancakes.

03-03-2009, 08:09 AM	#73
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by vinzer Well, I do find that the Samsung's hotshoe in your overlay to be slightly wider than the Pentax, but not by much, though that might be the telling difference, hence the need for a new mount (micro-K or otherwise)? . This EVIL camera is obviously a 100% Samsung job and someone pointed to an interview dating from august 2008 where a Samsung exec said they were already developing such camera around their 14MP sensor for a while with a whole set of lenses dedicated to a new mount. Hotshoe is not Pentax compatible, mount is not K-mount and the overall layout isn't similar to what Pentax ususaly does (no green button, S&A modes instead of Tv&Av, no Sv..., ...), hence my strong impression that this camera is completely out of the Pentax/Samsung collaboration. It would be nice if Pentax got a similar camera out sometimes but this is not it.

03-03-2009, 08:31 AM	#74
Tana Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Vietnam Photos: Gallery Posts: 13	Yeah.. The marriage between Pentax and Samsung seems no longer...

03-03-2009, 08:42 AM	#75
CFWhitman Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Upstate New York, US Photos: Albums Posts: 225	While it would make sense for there to be a K-mount adapter for this camera, I don't know if it will happen. Personally, if Pentax (or Samsung) made a camera like this and included a K-mount adapter that made up the difference in registration distance and retained full functionality with the current K mount, I would certainly find the camera interesting. I would even still find it somewhat interesting if they dropped the autofocus screw in favor of SDM only (although I could conceive of a focus motor and screw in the adapter as well).