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03-03-2009, 05:53 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
The advantage of CMOS is mostly price and speed.
Really? An interview with a Samsung rep stated that CMOS is more costly to manufacture. It was on DPR, if I'm not mistaken.

03-03-2009, 06:28 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by ajuett Quote
Sony makes cameras? ...they make nice TVs ;-)
Sony dSLRs are noisey and their P&S are worse.
Nothing to worry about.
You do realize your K100D has a Sony sensor inside it, right? Though I would agree that Sony still has some ways to go in handling noise (see A700 vis-a-vis D300), though they're not *that* worse compared to the competition. Too much pixel-peeping does tend to exaggerate things some.

Sony P&Ses are actually nice, though pricey. Actually, that's what bugs me about Sony more than anything else - pricing.
03-03-2009, 06:31 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
The Pentax 720p mode is only 15mps - just like e.g. the W60. That's weak, and makes the camera uninteresting for me (if I were to have this as an extra camera, a very good movie mode would have been essential).
- on the other hand, I checked the specs for the Nikon P90, and it only has a 640x480 mode!

These two cameras are remarkably similar, the P90 even has sensor-shift image stabilization - could it be a Nikon/Pentax co-developed product?

There are some differences, though:

- the (even if only 15fps) hidef movie mode of the X70
- the even faster (15fps vs 11fps) drive mode of the P90
- the tiltable screen of the P90
- the 1:1 aspect ratio choice of the X70

(which other?)
03-03-2009, 06:34 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
Really?

It's just now that CMOS is starting to catch up with CCD when it comes to actual imaging performance.

The advantage of CMOS is mostly price and speed.
I thought CMOS' advantage is lesser noise compared to CCD, which is why Canon has enjoyed a high-ISO advantage over the other manufacturers up until they started to switch to CMOS/NMOS themselves?

QuoteOriginally posted by ftpaddict Quote
Really? An interview with a Samsung rep stated that CMOS is more costly to manufacture. It was on DPR, if I'm not mistaken.
Maybe for Canon, it's cheaper since they already were doing CMOS long before Samsung did, so they already have a more efficient process in place. Just a thought.

03-03-2009, 06:38 AM   #20
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You all totally miss the point

You have read the Sony superzoom description, still miss the point.

Sony has opened an entirely new race here: Software!


It does noise supersampling and panorama stitching in firmware. To illustrate what noise supersampling can do (I do it on a regular base), look at this example (at night, no tripod!) in my gallery:
[IMGWIDELEFT]https://www.pentaxforums.com/gallery/images/5395/1_night0001.jpg[/IMGWIDELEFT]
(please look at the photo at 100% (3600 px wide) to get my point -- stripe patterns are jpg and downsampling artifacts)
User Photo Gallery - Night Scene

Something you would normally need a tripod for, or to even come close w/o, a FF DSLR camera with f/1.4 lens.

Last edited by falconeye; 03-03-2009 at 06:51 AM.
03-03-2009, 06:51 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
These two cameras are remarkably similar, the P90 even has sensor-shift image stabilization - could it be a Nikon/Pentax co-developed product?
The specs I've seen for the Nikon P90 mention optical (i.e. in-lens) stabilization...

As for a Pentax/Nikon cooperation, it is much more likely that these cameras are simply an OEM job from a common supplier (Sanyo or Cosina have been mentioned in other threads). The Kodak Z980 also seems to share the same lens & sensor as these two.
03-03-2009, 07:43 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
The specs I've seen for the Nikon P90 mention optical (i.e. in-lens) stabilization...
They call it optical stabilization, but they mean sensor shift (which isn't really that weird, when you think of it.

Quote from the product page on www.nikonusa.com

"Nikon’s Optical VR Image Stabilization compensates for the effects of camera shake by moving the image sensor. This produces clearer, sharper results in lower lighting or unsteady conditions."

QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
As for a Pentax/Nikon cooperation, it is much more likely that these cameras are simply an OEM job from a common supplier (Sanyo or Cosina have been mentioned in other threads).
I agree that it's probably an OEM job, but the cameras seem to have their own "personalities", they're not as similar as e.g. GX20 and K20d.
03-03-2009, 09:00 AM   #23
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Sony has been in it for a long time

QuoteOriginally posted by Buddha Jones Quote
It would seem that Sony wants to get into the compact superzoom game, but they seem to have at least put some thought into their model...

Sony shows speedy CMOS superzoom | Crave - CNET
All of these models were superzooms:

H1- H2, H3, H9, H50, HX1

H20 if you consider that a compact superzoom.

But I don't think that Pentax is "trumped" yet at all. In fact I think both cameras are very competitive to one another. The pentax is 100.00 less retail and contains more corrected lens elements than the Sony, has a wider range, still has a pano stitch mode.

Don't give too much credence to a 9.1 mp CMOS sensor just yet, thats a tiny sensor,and noise variations between CCD and CMOS are very close. The advantage to CMOS is mainly in power consumption and speed. Thats all really.

I think the Pentax is a bit crammed but the Panasonic FZ-28 has excellent images with just as a crammed sensor, especially raw.

Both Sony and Pentax should have offered raw in these, thats the big issue to me. Canons's SX10 IS will have raw via new firmware coming out (hats off to canon for that), and the FZ series are industry leaders for how long the camera line has had raw. Pana finally came out with a decent processing engine with the Venus IV, almost thought it was over for them.

Anyways im digressing. I think the Pentax is much better than what Nikon offers and is very competitive with Sony. It should sell fine.

Carl

03-03-2009, 09:34 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Buddha Jones Quote
CMOS trumps CCD, end of story.
That's what we hear a lot in the digital camera world.

I was talking to a guy doing astrophotography the other day (this guy) and he insisted that CCD is way superior to CMOS for that application, which is about as low light / long exposure as it gets.

There may be a lot of ways in which CMOS is better, but clearly it is not uniformly better.
03-03-2009, 09:34 AM   #25
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My understanding is the CMOS advantage is power consumption, and by extension that it can deal with continuous use (ie live view) more easily.

No raw on the X70? Mistake I think. I have an old FZ20 and the jpgs were relatively poor. The "high quality" was tiff which isn't ideal given today's workflows.

At any rate, it is a competitive camera. Not sure it interests me, but I'm not their target with this.
03-03-2009, 09:36 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
To illustrate what noise supersampling can do ...
Can you post / link to details about that technique?
03-03-2009, 10:13 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
They call it optical stabilization, but they mean sensor shift (which isn't really that weird, when you think of it.

Quote from the product page on www.nikonusa.com

"Nikon’s Optical VR Image Stabilization compensates for the effects of camera shake by moving the image sensor. This produces clearer, sharper results in lower lighting or unsteady conditions."
Thanks for clearing that up. I got misled by the use of different terms on DPreview ("Optical" for the Nikon, and "Sensor shift" for the Pentax...)

Last edited by RBellavance; 03-03-2009 at 10:30 AM.
03-03-2009, 10:49 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
It does noise supersampling and panorama stitching in firmware. [...] User Photo Gallery - Night Scene
QuoteOriginally posted by cyg Quote
Can you post / link to details about that technique?
In noise supersampling, you combine a series of images you have taken (handheld) in a burst (typically, up to 16 images, or 4.5s with a K20D). You can even use it to do long exposure water shots w/o tripod and grey filter

I use PhotoAcute ( TAKE BETTER PHOTOS, reduce noise, increase quality and resolution of digital photographs. Leading superresolution technology. ). They not only reduce noise but optionally double the resolution as well (and much more). Very nice. And can be done in batch mode.

The link to my gallery page above shows the result.

Theoretically, 16 images at ISO 1600 each combine to 1 image at ISO 100. Practically, it is at least as good.
03-03-2009, 02:49 PM   #29
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CMOS vs. CCD

QuoteOriginally posted by ftpaddict Quote
Really? An interview with a Samsung rep stated that CMOS is more costly to manufacture. It was on DPR, if I'm not mistaken.
CMOS sensors can be manufactured using the same basic processes as CPU chips, so if you are a chip manufacturer it is cheaper than having a separate process for CCDs.

CMOS sensors use less power than CCDs, that's their primary advantage. As for IQ, there are many more variables to consider.
03-03-2009, 03:58 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
They call it optical stabilization, but they mean sensor shift (which isn't really that weird, when you think of it.

Quote from the product page on www.nikonusa.com

"Nikon’s Optical VR Image Stabilization compensates for the effects of camera shake by moving the image sensor. This produces clearer, sharper results in lower lighting or unsteady conditions."
Ahhh...that makes a lot more sense. It just seemed weird that the Kodak and Nikon had 'Optical' stabilization (like Nikon lens-based VR) while the Pentax had sensor-shake SR. They're using "optical" here in the same sense that marketers differentiate optical vs. digital zoom--optical means "better/pure" as opposed to 'simulated'. When marketers say "digital SR", what they mean is "high ISO with additional noise".
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