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03-05-2009, 03:31 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Elton Quote
This is fantastic news if true! A 645D is defenately in my upgrade path somewhere in the next couple of years...
I would be thrilled too if only it had a remote chance of being priced under 5k...

I am surely going to have a hard time explaining how my camera can be more expensive than my car to my wife!!

03-05-2009, 03:45 AM   #62
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2 years have passed & the hassy is still the same price

So its been 4 years since 645D was initially roadmapped with a 55mm lens. Now its back from the dead and its a japan market only item with no release date, no specs, no price. Its been compared to the $18,000 hassy two years ago and that same hassy is still $18,000 even though as you say and I'd usually agree two years is a long time for consumer electronics. I wonder why the hassy remains priced $18,000?

I have no interest in buying any $18,000 vaporeware medium format digital camera. For my needs 24x36 full frame digital serves me well. Had it not been for my frustrations with the pentax delays I would never have added 5D or D700 to my tool bag in 2008 and 2009. I'm well aware what $18,000 can buy across multibrand equiptment and the list is staggering versus a pentax promised for 2005 camera body & it's kit lens.

Maybe Its Time for Pentax to put out a 645D spec sheet & msrp & release date?

Here's an idea:

Roadmap 645D & a Kit lens....

Only this time put out its detailed spec sheet & price it in Yen...










QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Given the on/off/on status of the digital 645 project, who can rely on something that was said almost two years given that the technology and market situations have changed? Two years is a long time in consumer electronics.

That you have made mention on numerous occasions here on PentaxForums the many camera systems you have (but strangely you have posted no photos either of your gear or images taken with your cameras), I'll concede you are probably a better authority of all things price related.

As for me, I frankly have no idea what is the "magic price point" that you refer to and even if I did have an inkling, I won't go around making up or throwing up figures that I can't back up.
03-05-2009, 03:58 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I wonder why the hassy remains priced $18,000?
Because it has no direct competition (yet?) and Hassy can charge whatever they want for it??
03-05-2009, 04:15 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
I guess that'll have to wait till we *actually* find out how many bucks and how much *bang,* though, right?

Actually, I just don't think that's the point of a 'prestige model.'

A 'popularized' digital MF camera, though, certainly could lead to something. Where'd these pro-standard Mamiya digitals come from? A model back from my 1000s. They weren't cheap at the time, either. Though compared to a Hassie...
Well, I'm hoping it would still retain it's prestige status but yet still be accessible for most wedding and studio photographers. Something around $10k or below would be great. I certainly won't be buying one, but others who shoot for a living and currently using Pentax (whoever and however many they are out there) might be able to upgrade from what they're using right now.

Besides, wouldn't other people from places outside Japan also want a crack at that 645D? To keep it prestigious is one thing, to totally close-off the market to only Japan is another thing. Wouldn't they want those extra 200 units sold, along with sales of lenses?

QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
I still think it's a niche item and NOT a platform or prototype for a mass produced camera to be released, at an affordable cost anytime soon, if ever.

This camera is what it is, and not something they are going to release early next year, and then turn around and find them for $799 online by Christmas...ever. Besides that, its huge, not portable....It's a niche camera for niche photography needs.

I am not bitter, just trying to keep perspective here. Give me a K10/20D size DSLR with some improvements from the current line up and THAT will excite me Real world stuff.

Jason
Oh, it's definitely niche. I don't see myself getting one (just about lined up for a K20D, but the pull of the summer camera line-up stops me from doing so), but it is nice to know that Hoya's at least interested in continuing the Pentax business.

QuoteOriginally posted by ewalk Quote
Because it has no direct competition (yet?) and Hassy can charge whatever they want for it??
I'm woefully ignorant about the digital medium format market, but is there such a big gap between Hassy and Mamiya marketshare? If so, then that's probably what's keeping Hassy prices up. That, and maybe Hassy really has to suck up huge margins, since I don't recall them having any other revenue-generating source outside of medium-format cameras, though I could be wrong.

QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I have no interest in buying any $18,000 vaporeware medium format digital camera. For my needs 24x36 full frame digital serves me well. Had it not been for my frustrations with the pentax delays I would never have added 5D or D700 to my tool bag in 2008 and 2009. I'm well aware what $18,000 can buy across multibrand equiptment and the list is staggering versus a pentax promised for 2005 camera body & it's kit lens.

Maybe Its Time for Pentax to put out a 645D spec sheet & msrp & release date?

Here's an idea:

Roadmap 645D & a Kit lens....

Only this time put out its detailed spec sheet & price it in Yen...
It's probably for the best that you got that 5D and D700 already, since Pentax seems to be more interested in MF than FF.

03-05-2009, 04:37 AM   #65
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I copy here part of the last comment in my blog, since it is directly related:

For amateur photographers like me, the relevance of this camera is rather small: I would never spend that amount of money for a hobby, and it is clear that only professional photographers, or very rich amateurs, are the target of the 645D. But I find interesting that, after the merging with Hoya and the many speculations on the future of Pentax in the current, very troubled economic waters, still Pentax decides to release a flagship, extremely expensive, professional camera like this. I remember now some recent comments, posted in Luminous Landscape, where they reflected on the actual meaning of the Nikon D3X and its $8000 tag.

I found particularly interesting this paragraph from that article:

QuoteQuote:
Excepting possibly only Leica, Nikon has a sense of its place in history like few other companies. Unlike some large corporations who are simply motivated by market share and the bottom line, Nikon actually cares about its perceived role in photography. The company thus appears to sometimes make product decisions based on more than financial considerations. So, when it comes to the D3x, what we are seeing may well be a corporate statement by Nikon, much as was made with the F6. We're back in the game, and we don't give ground in any market segment.
In my view, the decision of putting actually in the market the 645D is a similar movement from Pentax, compared to what Nikon has done with the D3X: it possibly has little financial logic, but it will be of high value to evidence amateurs & connoisseurs alike that yes, Pentax has been and keeps on being a top notch photography manufacturer, whose cameras and lenses have nothing to envy from anybody.

The lenses statement is rather clear today for anybody with a bit of attention: the limiteds from Pentax are a legend per se, and you can often read envious comments from Nikon or Canon users. Now with the 645D and the upcoming successor of the Pentax K20D, I bet that more photographers will realize that Pentax cameras are very serious business too. And this might constitute the core statement from Pentax, behind the release of the 645D.

Last edited by cateto; 03-05-2009 at 04:46 AM.
03-05-2009, 04:39 AM   #66
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I think the notion that a MF Pentax would have a price point near to a Hasselblad is frankly ludicrous. Given the reputation of the Hassies over a very long period of time, if anyone had to make a choice between the two at the same price, which camera do you think any potential buyer would go for? Of course, if that price is correct, it's a possible reason why Pentax aren't thinking of marketing it anywhere but Japan.

Personally, I would doubt anyone in their right mind would pull a stunt like that (which doesn't totally rule it out, of course) and I suspect the price point will be significantly lower than the $18k some people seem to think it may be. That prediction of only 200 sales in the US is a bit concerning, just the same, but it may be based on old research.
03-05-2009, 04:47 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Besides that, its huge, not portable....It's a niche camera for niche photography needs.

Well a Pentax 645N II weighs about 1.3Kgs (body only) while an EOS 1DS comes in at 1.4 Kg. While my 33-55 comes in at 600g while with canon the closest equivalent lens is the 16-35 which is nearly 700g
03-05-2009, 04:49 AM   #68
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Photo Imaging Expo - on March, 26-29, 2009
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03-05-2009, 05:08 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cideway Quote
Well a Pentax 645N II weighs about 1.3Kgs (body only) while an EOS 1DS comes in at 1.4 Kg. While my 33-55 comes in at 600g while with canon the closest equivalent lens is the 16-35 which is nearly 700g
That's not a fair comparison. The 1Ds has weatherproof and other crap. If you don't need weatherproof and focusing, shooting speed, there are lighter Canon body. How fast can 645N, 645D shoot?
03-05-2009, 05:15 AM   #70
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E1, E3 and Pentax cameras has the most strong water and dust resist.
1Ds has some weatherproof. I don't see any problem to make some sealings in 645D.
But...No need IMO.
03-05-2009, 05:16 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by whatever7 Quote
That's not a fair comparison. The 1Ds has weatherproof and other crap. If you don't need weatherproof and focusing, shooting speed, there are lighter Canon body. How fast can 645N, 645D shoot?
That was not the issue. The question was if it is portable or not. Either we agree that both the 645 and the Canon 1Ds are portable, or we agree that both are only for studie use.

I was even draging around a Hasselblad (film) for a year mainly without tripod and even that is portable, and the 645s are lighter and simpler to handle.
03-05-2009, 05:21 AM   #72
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No Regrets so far

I am very happy I added full frame platforms. That said I'm happy I've got a K20D too, back in November when they were $689. Owning more than one brand insulates me from things that used to frustrate me. Studying prices across three brands has helped me build my system. All lenses I acquired before the major price increases occurred. Every eos and nikon lens I bought new since Spring 2008 is up. Some a few hundred dollars each, UP. None are cheaper right now. I've said it before, I'll say it again. No One Brand covers everything well. Nikon's got the ultrawide covered, I'm in awe of the images I get with my 14-24mm 2.8. Canon's 70-200mm 2.8 with fully functional 1.4x and 12mm extention tube for macro autofocus image stabilized capture makes the one zoom incredibly versatile. Pentax with shake reduction and 20x viewscreen are features I wish everyone offered. With three brands I am insulated from ever having to be the first to buy anything, unless I really immediately need it. I sure like the 17mm rotating tilt shift lens canon showed at PMA Vegas 2009. At $2,500 launch price it seems priced right to me, but at $2,000 for summer 2010 I've got to think I'd add it. Without a 5D inhand I'd be waiting for Pentax to offer full frame dslr, or make pro 35mm film body and then wait again for them to compete with canon's new 17mm Tilt Shift. Pentax doesn't want to compete with Canon or Nikon, so I really doubt they'll make a full frame dslr in next several years. Competing against Nikon & Canon is not Interesting. So they're back to talking up 645D. No specs or price or with a firm release date, but atleast we know its a japan market only item.

Off the top of my head, isn't the mamiya medium format digital the least expensive medium format at like $15,000 and for high end aren't there like $40,000 hassys? Seems Medium format digital sits in a price range of $15,000 to $40,000 plus. Why wouldn't Pentax 645D sit in the range and not vastly below it?

I'm guessing but Pentax saying USA market cannot support more than 200 unit sales means this 645D ain't cheap. I agree pentax would have been better served offering a full frame 24x36 dslr in all markets.


Speaking of Being Interesting, heres a detailed pic about "Interesting":

http://a.img-dpreview.com/articles/pma2009/Pentax/P3030694.jpg

& from the Pentax display series at PMA on dpreview, incase anyone missed it:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/pma2009/Pentax/


QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote



It's probably for the best that you got that 5D and D700 already, since Pentax seems to be more interested in MF than FF.

Last edited by Samsungian; 03-05-2009 at 05:35 AM. Reason: added two Interesting pentax links
03-05-2009, 05:25 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by denisv Quote
I will eat my shorts if Pentax ever makes a functional 645D, much less ships it.
I hope you have chocolate shorts.....
03-05-2009, 05:34 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
I think the notion that a MF Pentax would have a price point near to a Hasselblad is frankly ludicrous. Given the reputation of the Hassies over a very long period of time, if anyone had to make a choice between the two at the same price, which camera do you think any potential buyer would go for? Of course, if that price is correct, it's a possible reason why Pentax aren't thinking of marketing it anywhere but Japan.

Personally, I would doubt anyone in their right mind would pull a stunt like that (which doesn't totally rule it out, of course) and I suspect the price point will be significantly lower than the $18k some people seem to think it may be. That prediction of only 200 sales in the US is a bit concerning, just the same, but it may be based on old research.
The Pentax will use the new Kodak 51MP sensor which puts it in direct competition with the Hassy h3dii-50 which is closer to $30,000. I reckon the 645D will be no less than $25,000 given the exchange rate between Yen and Dollar - I doubt Pentax can be competitive in the US market but probably will sell well in its home market.

They have almost certainly opted for limited production which may mean they have outsourced it, but they will also be buying sensors in small batches so the prices will be v. high. Of course, if it takes off in Japan and creates some demand, Pentax may well decide to dip a toe in other markets too.

Last edited by *isteve; 03-05-2009 at 06:30 AM.
03-05-2009, 06:01 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Off the top of my head, isn't the mamiya medium format digital the least expensive medium format at like $15,000 and for high end aren't there like $40,000 hassys? Seems Medium format digital sits in a price range of $15,000 to $40,000 plus. Why wouldn't Pentax 645D sit in the range and not vastly below it?
I think you can get the cheapest Mamiya setup for just under $10k. I don't think there's a chance in hell Pentax can put out anything below that, at least initially.

What about lenses? Are they still producing 645 AF lenses? How many are there? Mamiya did a pretty good investment in developing new glass and have quite a lineup for their cameras by now. The camera itself is only part of the system.

As for portability -- no argument from me there. I carry the 1Ds2 everywhere and it's a bulky monster. I think where the medium format gear falls flat is ISO performance -- most of them only go up to ISO 400 and that's a far bigger issue than its size. Now, if Pentax could release a camera that goes up to 3200 or 6400 (heck, use pixel binning and sacrifice some resolution to get there) that would be... interesting!
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