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03-11-2009, 05:38 AM   #61
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I can't figure out why a $3,500 sensor ends up costing $36,000 in the hassy?

Here's an interesting link to medium format 50mp sensor purchase cost in quantity:

$3,500 for 48x36 50mp :

" Rochester, N.Y. — Eastman Kodak Company has claimed the industry's first 50-megapixel CCD image sensor for the professional photography market, capturing digital images at unprecedented resolution and detail thanks to a newly designed 6.0-micron pixel and several other advances. With an 8176 x 6132 pixel array, Kodak said the KAF-50100 50-megapixel sensor provides the highest resolution available in the popular 48 x 36-mm optical format used in medium format photography...."


"...Working with leading camera makers, Kodak's Image Sensor Solutions group focused on several key areas of improvement with the new CCD image sensor design including higher resolution while maintaining dynamic range, reducing noise and faster capture. The result is the company's new TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Technology Platform, which increases both the resolution and camera performance. The KAF-50100 is the first Kodak sensor to use the company's new technology...."

"Based on a 6.0-micron pixel, the platform provides increased data throughput for a faster frame rate, a reduced "click to capture" time for improved camera response, lower power consumption for improved battery life, and improved color fidelity, while still retaining key performance parameters available from the larger, 6.8-micron pixel used in current products."

"They needed additional resolution that directly drives the requirement for a smaller pixel, moving from a 6.8-micron pixel for the 39 MP sensor to 6.0-micron pixel for the 50 MP device, said Michael DeLuca, marketing manager for Image Sensor Solutions at Eastman Kodak Company. This is a 30 percent change in area resulting in a 30 percent change in resolution, he said."


"....In addition to increasing resolution, they wanted to maintain all other specs including dynamic range. In order to retain the 70-dB dynamic range spec for the device, Kodak had to implement a few other redesigns in the sensor. DeLuca said it required a new amplifier design to help reduce noise and a new four-output architecture, compared to two outputs used in the 39-MP sensor, to help manage the increased quantity of data available from the image sensors, enabling sensor operation at one frame per second (fps) for a 50-megapixel device, and to gain additional bandwidth. This also helps to lower the master clock, which helps further reduce noise, said DeLuca.
Kodak also implemented several other performance improvements. A new global reset function, which allows the entire sensor array to be reset using only a single clock pulse, reduces both power consumption (improving battery life in the camera) and the "click to capture" time (now measured in microseconds instead of milliseconds) for improved camera response.
Kodak also refined the spectral characteristics of the red pigment to improve color fidelity, allowing sensors based on this new platform to provide richer, more accurate colors.
The 50-MP CCD image sensor may be used in other applications including aerial photography. Case-in-point: With a 50-megapixel camera, in an aerial photo of a field 1-1/2 miles across, you could detect an object about the size of a small notebook computer (1 foot x 1 foot).
The new 50-MP CCD image sensor has already been designed into Hasselblad's new H3DII-50 high-end DSLR camera system, touting the 1 fps capture rate due to the 4-channel readout structure. The H3DII-50 will be available in October 2008.
Availability: Engineering grade devices of the KAF-50100 are currently available, with volume production planned for fourth quarter 2008.
Pricing: $3500 in volume.
Product information: KAF-50100 "

Hassy 50mp using this sensor priced at $36,000 via special order, link "H3DII-50" above is broken:

Hasselblad | H3D-II-50 Digital Camera Pro Kit | 703605575 | B&H

See entire text here:
EEProductCenter.com :: Kodak delivers next-generation 50-MP CCD image sensor





QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Going by Kodak's checkered history with digital sensors, I hope Pentax never uses a Kodak sensor in the digital 645. Seems like everything Kodak has dabbled in digital is a resounding flop. Here's hoping the MF sensor is a CMOS and not CCD sensor.



Last edited by Samsungian; 03-11-2009 at 06:08 AM.
03-11-2009, 05:44 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sean Nelson Quote
My figure of $3500 for a Kodak 36 x 48mm sensor comes from Kodak's press release [...] There's no reason why raw manufacturing cost needs to be anywhere close to the selling price
Yes. My point exactly.
The industry obviously decided to make MF sensors (and still FF sensors) to be considered gems. It is us buying into that. Or not.
The Kodak $3500 figure is nice because it is public. Probably (like street/press release price of a K20D), an actual customer would pay less, maybe half of this. Which is still high, of course. But not $5000...
QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
2. The yield per wafer may be as low as 3-4 chips for FF or less than 1 for MF.
[...]
3. You are forgetting to add the cost of the post-processing (bayer filter and microlenses) which add considerably to the post production cost.
Ad. 2: In an earlier post, I already computed yield for MF sensors from 300mm wafers to be 23 (66*35%). There, I used the numbers from an actual wafer layout and for defect density from ICKnowledge again. And there is no better source for figures like that.

Ad. 3: I don't consider bayer filter and microlenses being part of the imaging sensor chip. Also, this cost part wouldn't "explode" with size.
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
All in all, it seems to me you really do not understand what the CMOS/CCD manufacturing implies
Even if it were so, I only used the ICKnowledge cost model and they do.
Then, I've been inside the clean room part of a major Fab and talked to the manager of production and gave payed advice how to increase yield. As I gave advice to makers of reticle manufacturing machines. Maybe, I don't understand what the CMOS/CCD manufacturing implies. But maybe, I actually do
03-11-2009, 06:21 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by RH blog:
The development of the 645D system had also led to some "motivation" and new "driving force" in the development of "new(?) 35mm full frame system". It should not be seen as we had aborted the K-mount (full frame) lens system, as it wasn't.
QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
Can somebody confirm this translation of RiceHigh?
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
It has similarities with the translation provided by Google [...] Do we have an Japanese speaking member on this board to have an accurate translation of this sentence?
Well, thanks to our new member kimpira, we now have a good translation of this sentence (https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/520089-post60.html):

QuoteOriginally posted by kimpira Quote
“We also have to develop 645D system. It needs power. Creating new lenses mount like NX system needs as huge power as a Full-frame DSLR system. If we can not comprehend that the new system is superior to K mount system in all aspects, we never enter the mirror-less category.”
Well, looks like RH's translation was far off the truth in this case. Kawauchi only compared NX and FF as needing similiar effort.

I guess RH works from Japanese->Chinese automated translations which are better than Japanese->English but not always good enough to be published.

Last edited by falconeye; 03-11-2009 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Replaced Korean by Chinese ...
03-11-2009, 02:02 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote

I guess RH works from Japanese->Korean automated translations which are better than Japanese->English but not always good enough to be published.
Why do you act so surprised... sorry couldn't resist..
He's translating much from his Chinese understanding of Japanese...

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