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03-07-2009, 06:14 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adnan EROL Quote
may be, Sigma wants to encourage Pentax to release first version of FF camera with no worry about efficaciousness of sensor-SR, because there is another (plus) choise for that period of time (untill they improve FF SR): lenses with image stabilisation.
so you want the pentax demographic to pay more for lenses now?

not a single pentax lens has in lens stabilization!

where do you come up with this?!?

03-07-2009, 06:40 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
so you want the pentax demographic to pay more for lenses now?

not a single pentax lens has in lens stabilization!

where do you come up with this?!?
Its just crappy kit lens, from 3rd party even, who cares. In that price range you got tons of option to choose from, nobody forces you to buy Sigma. Sigma is just trying to differentiate itself.

Plus its very useful for *ist D/DS/DL. PLus in-lens IS gives SR to the viewfinder, which in-body SR system can't.
03-07-2009, 07:36 AM   #33
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I could care less about a FF Pentax body. People will still bitch about slow AF performance and "doesn't shoot 10 fps" Then they'll keep griping until the next one comes out, and the next one...
03-07-2009, 08:28 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by whatever7 Quote
Plus its very useful for *ist D/DS/DL.
Don't bet on that.
The *istDS/DL can't power the lenses, and no *istD-series camera will be able to focus - no SDM/HSM support.

03-07-2009, 10:26 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Yeah, an SR which limited to 1 EV max gain. If that's not a marketing thing I do not know what it is...
Sony SSSI (super steady shot inside) offers equal effectiveness to Pentax in-body SR, rated at 2-4 stops effective.

My original point being that the obstacle of stabalizing a FF sensor within existing 35mm format image circle has been accomplished.


K.
03-07-2009, 10:55 AM   #36
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10 frames per second? How about 5fps, 1/250 flash sync

Wanna make it "Pro" put two card slots in a K20D, faster flash sync, and add a couple frames per second. Stop with the megapixel arms race.


QuoteOriginally posted by khardur Quote
I could care less about a FF Pentax body. People will still bitch about slow AF performance and "doesn't shoot 10 fps" Then they'll keep griping until the next one comes out, and the next one...
03-07-2009, 11:48 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by hyyz Quote
Pentax has found SR is the feature they have to keep. Neither FA nor DA can produce image circles large enough for SR to function correctly in a FF Pentax. (The Photokina 2008 Interview disclosed this).
That's ridiculous.

To get a clue I suggest you look at the thread where DA lenses are tested on FF film cameras. the image circle doesn't disappear, it goes on slowly fading. Maybe on a lens with very heavy vignetting the SR would aggravate that vignetting. But a non vignetting lens would have no problem at all.
03-07-2009, 03:21 PM   #38
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I guess Pentax's SR utilizes sensor-shift in the direction perpendicular to lens axis. If a lens' image circle is not large enough, you'll get vignett even if that lens doesn't give you vignett in non-SR cases (i.e. sensor stays on the lens axis).

The Pentax Head didn't say ALL FA lenses would have problem when a FF with SR is brought out. He just said some FA lenses already reach their limit w.r.t image circle. But I guess many FA (K, M, A) lenses will suffer this problem given the fact that Pentax lenses are always very compact and they were not designed with SR in mind.

As for why Sony can have A900 with SR, I don't know. Maybe their full frame lenses' image circle happens to be larger? Maybe their SR methodology is different from Pentax's? Or maybe they just claim so since not many people will try to use old Minolta lens on it anyway?

From my understanding, what I said in my last post is what I read from Pentax Head's interview at Photokina 2008. So, I won't expect a FF Pentax in near future.


Last edited by hyyz; 03-07-2009 at 03:35 PM.
03-07-2009, 06:33 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by hyyz Quote
I guess Pentax's SR utilizes sensor-shift in the direction perpendicular to lens axis. If a lens' image circle is not large enough, you'll get vignett even if that lens doesn't give you vignett in non-SR cases (i.e. sensor stays on the lens axis).

The Pentax Head didn't say ALL FA lenses would have problem when a FF with SR is brought out. He just said some FA lenses already reach their limit w.r.t image circle. But I guess many FA (K, M, A) lenses will suffer this problem given the fact that Pentax lenses are always very compact and they were not designed with SR in mind.

As for why Sony can have A900 with SR, I don't know. Maybe their full frame lenses' image circle happens to be larger? Maybe their SR methodology is different from Pentax's? Or maybe they just claim so since not many people will try to use old Minolta lens on it anyway?

From my understanding, what I said in my last post is what I read from Pentax Head's interview at Photokina 2008. So, I won't expect a FF Pentax in near future.
Pentax lenses are lighter and more compact mostly due to the construction and material used, not smaller lens elements. Just look at the Tokina version of the Pentax lenses and observe how much bigger and heavier they are.

Even if we pretend for a second what you said is true. The images do get black lines in the edge when SR is on. There is nothing a simple photoshop batch action can't get rip off. They can even implement it in camera firmware.
03-08-2009, 09:24 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by hyyz Quote
I guess Pentax's SR utilizes sensor-shift in the direction perpendicular to lens axis. If a lens' image circle is not large enough, you'll get vignett even if that lens doesn't give you vignett in non-SR cases (i.e. sensor stays on the lens axis).

The Pentax Head didn't say ALL FA lenses would have problem when a FF with SR is brought out. He just said some FA lenses already reach their limit w.r.t image circle. But I guess many FA (K, M, A) lenses will suffer this problem given the fact that Pentax lenses are always very compact and they were not designed with SR in mind.
Source, link?

QuoteOriginally posted by hyyz Quote
As for why Sony can have A900 with SR, I don't know. Maybe their full frame lenses' image circle happens to be larger? Maybe their SR methodology is different from Pentax's? Or maybe they just claim so since not many people will try to use old Minolta lens on it anyway?

From my understanding, what I said in my last post is what I read from Pentax Head's interview at Photokina 2008. So, I won't expect a FF Pentax in near future.
SSSI functions with any lens and turning it on or off does not visibly affect vignette. It functions effectively, as advertised.

K.
03-08-2009, 12:41 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by thePiRaTE!! Quote
Source, link?
Japanese version: link
Chinese version: link
I don't know if there is an accurate English translation of this article. But in case you can read Chinese, it clearly says this:
要是搞135全幅的话,还必须重新整理镜头产品线,眼下我们只能集中精力搞APS-C画幅了。此外我们宾得的机身内防抖,要是搞全幅的话还要考虑取景圈的修正,而有些镜头的取景圈已经到极限了....
QuoteOriginally posted by thePiRaTE!! Quote
SSSI functions with any lens and turning it on or off does not visibly affect vignette. It functions effectively, as advertised.

K.
That I don't know. I never used a Minolta or Sony. I have list several possibilities in Sony case in my last post.

I just feel it makes sense for me not to expect a FF Pentax in near future. And I personally believe the msg I read from that interview is a proof of this.
03-08-2009, 05:29 PM   #42
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I understand Chinese. The quote is talking about some FF lenses were pushing the limits of the image circles. However I don't know Japanese so I don't know how acurate the translation is.

I don't see the problem of Pentax redesigning FF lenses for slightly larger image circle. They have to remake the lenses anyway. While we are on the subject of image circles. There are many simple way to solve the problem of limitation of image circles. One of them is just make the FF sensor in 1.1X or 1.05X instead of 1X size.
03-08-2009, 06:11 PM   #43
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This topic of SR with FF refuses to die... It is a non issue.

To understand why: do a handheld exposure of, say 1/5th sec at a permissable SR focal length for this exposure time. Say 50mm. Don't use SR and look at the blur width. Typical values are 20-30 pixels (I tried it with a K20D). Or 125µm. Requiring 24.25 x 36.25 rather than 24 x 36 mm. Or less than 1% headroom in the image circle.

This has been clarified by others before. Using the same argument.
03-08-2009, 10:15 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by hyyz Quote
...I just feel it makes sense for me not to expect a FF Pentax in near future. And I personally believe the msg I read from that interview is a proof of this.
I think there are very few left here who feel a FF Pentax is imminent for many reasons, including myself (who bought the A900). Given the state of current technology however, SR on FF perfomance is not likely one of those reasons, as explained by Falconeye (interesting test result btw).

K.
03-08-2009, 11:11 PM   #45
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Didn't we already have this discussion regarding the square sensor? or the APS-H sensor? or the full-rame sensor?

How can anyone think it would be smart marketing for Pentax to throw away their entire product catelogue to produce some mystical full-frame camera? I'm surprised I haven't heard the usual bits of wisdom in this thread I'm used to in others:

"Well, uh, some of the DA lenses would work, so Pentax could just explain which lenses can be used"

Right. So the Pentax marketing reps / user guide copy editors and writers have to explain that SOME DA and DA* lenses can be used at full resolution, but some cannot, and provide some confusing table, listing which lenses can be full-frame and which ones can't.

One person even went so far to suggest that "the 16-45 covers full-frame from about 22mm onward, so Pentax could just make a note of that in product brochures and manuals" -- yeah. Right. Something like:

QuoteQuote:
The Pentax K30D -- The Power Of Full-Frame*

*Excludes the DA14, DA15, DA21, DA*16-50 (from 28mm onward), DA16-45 (from 22mm onward), DA35 Macro, DA12-24


"But, what if they just redesigned the new DA lenses to make them full-frame?"

Ha. Yeah. Right. The Canon 16-35/2.8 costs twice what the 16-50 does, and doesn't have the same coverage. Pentax may be a great company, but they're not magical -- they're not going to redesign all their existing crop-camera lenses for full-frame (even if they could).

Remember, Full-frame designs are big, heavy, bulky and expensive. None of those words are what Pentax's marketing niche is, so there's absolutely no reason it makes sense for them to design a full-frame body.

"But they could just bring back their old FA designs, with SDM technology"

Right. So now, a dinky little Pentax, who doesn't think it could sell 200 MF cameras in a country like the U.S. -- with a population of 275 million people -- suddenly has the resources (read:capital) to carry FOUR lens lines?! (the DA, the existing FA/FA Limiteds, the DA*, and the mysterous, new FA* or whatever)




I guess my point is, sure, old FA glass would work great on full-frame, but why would you want your favorite camera manufacturer to go out of business designing and selling (probably at a loss) a new full-frame camera, and not have any glass for it? It would encourage everyone to go buy old used FA glass so they can use it, which would ruin Pentax.

It's mind-boggling that so many people are screaming for a full-frame camera. Obviously, you shouldn't have bought into the Pentax system. They're whole thing now is small, light-weight, affordable, and rugged. expect to see D-SLRs continue to fit that mold.

That is, if Pentax ever wants to survive.

If you want a full-frame camera (for reasons I have yet to understand), go buy one. I hear Nikon and Canon and Sony all make some decent ones. But stop wasting internet bandwidth on this nonsense.

Last edited by jay; 03-09-2009 at 12:23 AM.
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