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03-17-2009, 06:53 PM   #76
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Falcon eye, it seemed an informative read, and one of the few out there that can actually be easily read by someone not in the industry. Sorry that is slightly inaccurate. BTW you are citing a 12" wafer and canon is citing an 8". I also hardly see this as propaganda, it simply talks about the different between cmos and ccd and a few other insights into canon's manufacturing process. Obviously this document does favor canon, but to consider it marketing anything other and technical documentation would be absurd. The average person would have trouble figuring out what a wafer was much less looking at equations about signal to noise ratios.

As for processors, that is correct the smaller dies do decrease circuit path. However, I have read before that shorter circuit paths is offset by increased thermal resistance. I doubt either effect cpu activity that much. Relating this back to cameras, i helps explain why our cameras produce less noise in the cold, or why they super cool sensors for telescopes, and why noise becomes more prevalent in video modes, and also how such small sensors maintain an acceptable level of noise considering their size.

03-17-2009, 07:03 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Please, everybody stop citing this propaganda (it compares apples and oranges on purpose).

Thank You.

For further information (and why I am so upset), please refer to:
- https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/517235-post39.html
- https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/516776-post23.html

I.e., the exact numbers are 164 and 66, not 200 and 20. What a simple use of brain power would have revealed as well...

And by the way ... the number of good FF chips per wafer is 44. And a 12" wafer is $2500 to make (before cutting, testing and packaging) ...
errr... you have no way of knowing that they manufacture sensors on 300mm wafers. most credible sources still say they use the older fab plants... which the Chinese were buying like crazy.
080111: Flood of used 200mm tools
Ed’s Threads 080111
Musings by Ed Korczynski on January 11, 2008

Flood of used 200mm tools
Semico Research, working with affiliated Semiconductor Partners, has released a new study of the near-term forecast for used 200mm wafer processing tools soon to flood the market. In addition to identifying companies that are likely to either purchase or sell a fab and their expansion or divestiture plans, this study includes five-year device forecasts by technology node and detailed wafer demand. The market for used equipment is expected to grow from $300 million in 2007 to more than $8 billion in 2009.

"As leading edge digital memory and logic manufacturers build 300mm fabs for process technologies of 65nm or less, this will obsolete their 200mm fabs at 130nm or 90nm and some of their 300mm fans at 90nm. Analog and mixed signal manufacturers will have a need for these fabs to meet for expansion to satisfy the growing analog, mixed signal, and RF markets," explained Morry Marshall, Partner, Strategic Technologies at Semiconductor Partners.

080121: SMC highlights PV, LED, and packaging materials080111: Flood of used 200mm tools080101: 2007 odds and ends
a little sideways in the discussion.......
03-17-2009, 11:25 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by joerg Quote
I doubt either effect cpu activity that much. .
you can't go above certain frequencies if you circuit paths will be longer than certain length...
03-18-2009, 05:42 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by joerg Quote
you are citing a 12" wafer and canon is citing an 8".
QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
errr... you have no way of knowing that they manufacture sensors on 300mm wafers.
Canon speaks about 8" wafers when talking about FF, still does silently assume 300mm wafers when talking about (their smaller than Pentax-sized) APC-C.
One of the reasons why I said "comparing apples to oranges".
Obviously, the inductry tries to convice us that FF must be expensive. While this has already ceased to be true. What I tried to explain. In the other thread. I think, I won't repeat it here beyond the point I already did.

03-18-2009, 06:17 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nimrad Quote
You'd be surprised what you see in Japan:>
After 25 years here.....no, I wouldn't.

(And I've only seen a grand total of TWO other Pentax users here, by the way).
03-18-2009, 09:32 AM   #81
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I suppose that is depending on what you and the industry consider expensive. Even with your numbers and your yield figures FF is considerably more expensive than APS-C. When someone in an industry like this considers something expensive, they are saying relative to something else. The sensors themselves by your figures would cost 2.5x more per unit, this is neglecting a lot of other things but even at that increased cost it makes sense.

Hmm Canon 50D right around 1000, Canon 5DmkII about 2500 worked out pretty well. Well all know there is mark up in the industry that should not be a shock to any of us. At least with pentax we would not have to pay the sensor development costs like Canon users do.
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