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03-05-2009, 03:52 PM   #1
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FF K20D is almost done!

well, if Pentax can produce 200 MF cameras,
then should produce 200 FF cameras too.

At least 200 potential buyers are ready at the following link.
No need to sell anywhere, we just pay via PayPal (or online Credit Card) and it will arrive within 3-5 days by Express Mail Service (EMS) - Japan Post.

Of course price should be about what CANikon counterparts cost. Neither much more, nor relatively less.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/43883-full-frame-k20d-...ow-yes-no.html


Last edited by Adnan EROL; 03-06-2009 at 01:11 AM.
03-05-2009, 06:36 PM   #2
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I get the feeling that they are making limited run of MF cameras because Pentax put a down payment on some 645 sensor from before the brought out.
03-05-2009, 06:46 PM   #3
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The MF run isn't for 200 cameras. They stated that they didn't want to sell it in the US because the expected sales _here_ would be 200 units. I'd wager that they are hoping for quite a few more being sold in Japan.

Also, FF isn't as easy as sticking a new sensor in. The manufacturing technology gets vastly more complex once you go past a certain size.
03-05-2009, 07:02 PM   #4
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The FF issue is really one of the number of finished sensors that can be pulled off a silicon wafer after the burn. A fault rate is expected. APS-C sensors allow many more to be arranged on a standard wafer - and the expected fault rate is economically permissible.

FF is an order of magnitude fewer finsihed items per burn, and a fault rate makes the entire process too expensive unless you can either sell a lot of cameras or consider it a prestige item / loss leader.

Somebody with manufacturing know-how please fill in the specifics, such as wafer mm size, old smaller line utility, etc.

QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
The MF run isn't for 200 cameras. They stated that they didn't want to sell it in the US because the expected sales _here_ would be 200 units. I'd wager that they are hoping for quite a few more being sold in Japan.

Also, FF isn't as easy as sticking a new sensor in. The manufacturing technology gets vastly more complex once you go past a certain size.


03-05-2009, 07:17 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The FF issue is really one of the number of finished sensors that can be pulled off a silicon wafer after the burn. A fault rate is expected. APS-C sensors allow many more to be arranged on a standard wafer - and the expected fault rate is economically permissible.

FF is an order of magnitude fewer finsihed items per burn, and a fault rate makes the entire process too expensive unless you can either sell a lot of cameras or consider it a prestige item / loss leader.

Somebody with manufacturing know-how please fill in the specifics, such as wafer mm size, old smaller line utility, etc.
That's not what I was referring to. The machines used to create the sensors can cover a max of something like 26x33mm in a single exposure so sensors larger than that require that you very carefully line up two exposures/sensors and "stitch" them together which from what I gather is a very painstaking and failure prone process.
03-05-2009, 07:53 PM   #6
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It can be done with CCD sensors, it's really in the hands of the controller and DAC. It's not unlike old memory hacks by piggy-backing memory chips. It's really in the alignment of the sensors and the speed of the conversion that would be the killer. As a matter of CMOS FF sensors that's different. CMOS sensors have a lot of circuitry included on the sensor to shorten the path of the analog signal and decrease the chance of more noise entering the signal path. The ability to gang several sensors together is limited to what functions have been put onto the sensor with CMOS as opposed to CCD which is really a dumb array and depending upon its surrounding components. CCD would be far easier in the long run if you would want to do it cheap.
03-05-2009, 08:17 PM   #7
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Actually, according to page 22 of this whitepaper I posted in another thread:
http://usa.canon.com/uploadedimages/FCK/Image/White%20Papers/Canon_CMOS_WP.pdf

Canon claims it's easier to make larger CMOS sensors than CCDs.
03-05-2009, 08:17 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The FF issue is really one of the number of finished sensors that can be pulled off a silicon wafer after the burn. A fault rate is expected. APS-C sensors allow many more to be arranged on a standard wafer - and the expected fault rate is economically permissible.

FF is an order of magnitude fewer finsihed items per burn, and a fault rate makes the entire process too expensive unless you can either sell a lot of cameras or consider it a prestige item / loss leader.

Somebody with manufacturing know-how please fill in the specifics, such as wafer mm size, old smaller line utility, etc.
This is an often-overlooked fact, but what *I* wonder about is ...like if you were setting gravel for something, ..if you need to fill a circle, why not make that circle up of sensors of *different* sizes?

03-05-2009, 08:22 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
That's not what I was referring to. The machines used to create the sensors can cover a max of something like 26x33mm in a single exposure so sensors larger than that require that you very carefully line up two exposures/sensors and "stitch" them together which from what I gather is a very painstaking and failure prone process.
*blink* Well, what would be wrong with a 26x33 sensor, or something snugged up in that size *anyway?* 24x36mm comes from cut-down movie film. Nothing sacrosanct there....
03-05-2009, 08:29 PM   #10
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I am guessing that once the surrounding crap that's needed is taken into account, the usable sensor area you'd end up with is right about the size of a 1D (not 1Ds) sensor with 1.3x crop...
03-05-2009, 09:43 PM   #11
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Well, Ping, Idon't pretend to know all the factos involved, but the way to get the most rectangles cut out of a circle *is* to mix up the sizes. Maybe that's something they could do. I dunno.
03-05-2009, 11:01 PM   #12
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State of the art semiconductor chips (CPUs from Intel, for example) are made on 300mm wafers. I imagine that sensors may not be made on the largest wafers possible for cost reasons.
03-05-2009, 11:25 PM   #13
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At an est. $15-20k for the 645D, I can't see them selling a huge quantity of these anyway...I'd be shocked to ever see anyone with one, here or anywhere else.

Jason
03-06-2009, 04:31 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
At an est. $15-20k for the 645D, I can't see them selling a huge quantity of these anyway...I'd be shocked to ever see anyone with one, here or anywhere else.

Jason
You'd be surprised what you see in Japan:>
03-06-2009, 05:48 AM   #15
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Also, keep in mind that all that poll shows is that 200+ people think Full Frame Pentax would be so cool. No offence intended to anyone who voted, but I bet only a 10th would really pony up the cash if it came right down to it. There's a huge contingent of armchair camera company CEOs who seem convinced that Pentax "needs" a full frame camera so that they can feel cool around their Canon/Nikon owning friends (who probably only have crop-sensor Canon and Nikon bodies, for that matter). This theory isn't entirely without merit, but the important thing is that few people who support that theory are actually in the FF market (at current reasonable-expectation FF price points).

I'll be in the full-frame market when the bodies cost less than $1000. I just can't do it before that. I know a lot of you spend more than I do on camera gear, but even I am in the very small minority of the market.
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