Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
03-05-2009, 03:52 PM   #1
Senior Member




Join Date: Oct 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 120
FF K20D is almost done!

well, if Pentax can produce 200 MF cameras,
then should produce 200 FF cameras too.

At least 200 potential buyers are ready at the following link.
No need to sell anywhere, we just pay via PayPal (or online Credit Card) and it will arrive within 3-5 days by Express Mail Service (EMS) - Japan Post.

Of course price should be about what CANikon counterparts cost. Neither much more, nor relatively less.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/43883-full-frame-k20d-...ow-yes-no.html


Last edited by Adnan EROL; 03-06-2009 at 01:11 AM.
03-05-2009, 06:36 PM   #2
Senior Member




Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 278
I get the feeling that they are making limited run of MF cameras because Pentax put a down payment on some 645 sensor from before the brought out.
03-05-2009, 06:46 PM   #3
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borås, Sweden
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,169
The MF run isn't for 200 cameras. They stated that they didn't want to sell it in the US because the expected sales _here_ would be 200 units. I'd wager that they are hoping for quite a few more being sold in Japan.

Also, FF isn't as easy as sticking a new sensor in. The manufacturing technology gets vastly more complex once you go past a certain size.
03-05-2009, 07:02 PM   #4
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Working From Home
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,276
The FF issue is really one of the number of finished sensors that can be pulled off a silicon wafer after the burn. A fault rate is expected. APS-C sensors allow many more to be arranged on a standard wafer - and the expected fault rate is economically permissible.

FF is an order of magnitude fewer finsihed items per burn, and a fault rate makes the entire process too expensive unless you can either sell a lot of cameras or consider it a prestige item / loss leader.

Somebody with manufacturing know-how please fill in the specifics, such as wafer mm size, old smaller line utility, etc.

QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
The MF run isn't for 200 cameras. They stated that they didn't want to sell it in the US because the expected sales _here_ would be 200 units. I'd wager that they are hoping for quite a few more being sold in Japan.

Also, FF isn't as easy as sticking a new sensor in. The manufacturing technology gets vastly more complex once you go past a certain size.


03-05-2009, 07:17 PM   #5
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borås, Sweden
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,169
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The FF issue is really one of the number of finished sensors that can be pulled off a silicon wafer after the burn. A fault rate is expected. APS-C sensors allow many more to be arranged on a standard wafer - and the expected fault rate is economically permissible.

FF is an order of magnitude fewer finsihed items per burn, and a fault rate makes the entire process too expensive unless you can either sell a lot of cameras or consider it a prestige item / loss leader.

Somebody with manufacturing know-how please fill in the specifics, such as wafer mm size, old smaller line utility, etc.
That's not what I was referring to. The machines used to create the sensors can cover a max of something like 26x33mm in a single exposure so sensors larger than that require that you very carefully line up two exposures/sensors and "stitch" them together which from what I gather is a very painstaking and failure prone process.
03-05-2009, 07:53 PM   #6
Veteran Member
Das Boot's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sparkle City, South Cackalacky
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 689
It can be done with CCD sensors, it's really in the hands of the controller and DAC. It's not unlike old memory hacks by piggy-backing memory chips. It's really in the alignment of the sensors and the speed of the conversion that would be the killer. As a matter of CMOS FF sensors that's different. CMOS sensors have a lot of circuitry included on the sensor to shorten the path of the analog signal and decrease the chance of more noise entering the signal path. The ability to gang several sensors together is limited to what functions have been put onto the sensor with CMOS as opposed to CCD which is really a dumb array and depending upon its surrounding components. CCD would be far easier in the long run if you would want to do it cheap.
03-05-2009, 08:17 PM   #7
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borås, Sweden
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,169
Actually, according to page 22 of this whitepaper I posted in another thread:
http://usa.canon.com/uploadedimages/FCK/Image/White%20Papers/Canon_CMOS_WP.pdf

Canon claims it's easier to make larger CMOS sensors than CCDs.

03-05-2009, 08:17 PM   #8
Veteran Member
Ratmagiclady's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: GA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,563
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The FF issue is really one of the number of finished sensors that can be pulled off a silicon wafer after the burn. A fault rate is expected. APS-C sensors allow many more to be arranged on a standard wafer - and the expected fault rate is economically permissible.

FF is an order of magnitude fewer finsihed items per burn, and a fault rate makes the entire process too expensive unless you can either sell a lot of cameras or consider it a prestige item / loss leader.

Somebody with manufacturing know-how please fill in the specifics, such as wafer mm size, old smaller line utility, etc.
This is an often-overlooked fact, but what *I* wonder about is ...like if you were setting gravel for something, ..if you need to fill a circle, why not make that circle up of sensors of *different* sizes?
03-05-2009, 08:22 PM   #9
Veteran Member
Ratmagiclady's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: GA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,563
QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
That's not what I was referring to. The machines used to create the sensors can cover a max of something like 26x33mm in a single exposure so sensors larger than that require that you very carefully line up two exposures/sensors and "stitch" them together which from what I gather is a very painstaking and failure prone process.
*blink* Well, what would be wrong with a 26x33 sensor, or something snugged up in that size *anyway?* 24x36mm comes from cut-down movie film. Nothing sacrosanct there....
03-05-2009, 08:29 PM   #10
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borås, Sweden
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,169
I am guessing that once the surrounding crap that's needed is taken into account, the usable sensor area you'd end up with is right about the size of a 1D (not 1Ds) sensor with 1.3x crop...
03-05-2009, 09:43 PM   #11
Veteran Member
Ratmagiclady's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: GA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,563
Well, Ping, Idon't pretend to know all the factos involved, but the way to get the most rectangles cut out of a circle *is* to mix up the sizes. Maybe that's something they could do. I dunno.
03-05-2009, 11:01 PM   #12
Veteran Member
krypticide's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,079
State of the art semiconductor chips (CPUs from Intel, for example) are made on 300mm wafers. I imagine that sensors may not be made on the largest wafers possible for cost reasons.
03-05-2009, 11:25 PM   #13
Veteran Member
Jasvox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,107
At an est. $15-20k for the 645D, I can't see them selling a huge quantity of these anyway...I'd be shocked to ever see anyone with one, here or anywhere else.

Jason
03-06-2009, 04:31 AM   #14
Inactive Account




Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Posts: 150
QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
At an est. $15-20k for the 645D, I can't see them selling a huge quantity of these anyway...I'd be shocked to ever see anyone with one, here or anywhere else.

Jason
You'd be surprised what you see in Japan:>
03-06-2009, 05:48 AM   #15
Veteran Member
mattdm's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Boston, MA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,948
Also, keep in mind that all that poll shows is that 200+ people think Full Frame Pentax would be so cool. No offence intended to anyone who voted, but I bet only a 10th would really pony up the cash if it came right down to it. There's a huge contingent of armchair camera company CEOs who seem convinced that Pentax "needs" a full frame camera so that they can feel cool around their Canon/Nikon owning friends (who probably only have crop-sensor Canon and Nikon bodies, for that matter). This theory isn't entirely without merit, but the important thing is that few people who support that theory are actually in the FF market (at current reasonable-expectation FF price points).

I'll be in the full-frame market when the bodies cost less than $1000. I just can't do it before that. I know a lot of you spend more than I do on camera gear, but even I am in the very small minority of the market.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
cameras, ff, pentax news, pentax rumors
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale - Sold: K20D, Battery Grip, NEW K20D battery, cable remote (Worldwide) Albert Siegel Sold Items 6 09-23-2010 08:02 AM
In Canada: Summer Rebates for K20d or K20d plus lens Pentaxtic Pentax DSLR Discussion 1 07-17-2009 11:34 AM
Magic Lantern Guides: Pentax K20D and MasterWorks: Jumpstart Guide for the K20D. Reportage Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 10 02-12-2009 10:24 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:35 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top