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03-09-2009, 01:26 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
Really, this entire post of yours reeks of snobbery -- as if every Pentax user is a sophisticated seriously skilled camera user, while the Canon and Nikon guys buying anything less than a pro camera are just unwashed clueless morons who have no idea how to use their gear.
I never said that: I said that, for the discerning amateur photographers, and if you put the quality/price ratio into the equation, Pentax blows away the competition in their segment (with the exception of Oly).

As for Canikon users, I bet there are many skilled photographers, but there are, at least, the same amount (and possibly more) who use their dSLR as if they were compact cameras: green position and shoot, nothing else to consider. While among Pentax users, those green-position-always users is a very small minority.

Of course IMHO and no offense intended to anybody. While Canon's offerings don't attract me at all, I have a huge respect for Nikon.

03-09-2009, 01:35 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
Of course IMHO and no offense intended to anybody. While Canon's offerings don't attract me at all, I have a huge respect for Nikon.
Same here. But for now, I'm staying with Pentax ... waiting for an upgrade so my K10D will take the "second body" role.
03-09-2009, 01:40 PM   #63
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How about this idea, they make a new mount with a shorter register distance (is that the right term?) and then adapters for Pentax, Canon, Nikon, Sony and whatever. Then they get buyers from all camps. How is that for a new niche?
03-09-2009, 01:42 PM   #64
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^ Good idea if they want to disappear from being dSLR manufacturers and sell only lenses.

Bad idea if they want to continue selling both products.

03-09-2009, 01:53 PM   #65
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The buyers can use their favourite lenses, but if they want to have a small kit they will have to buy new small native lenses as well.
03-09-2009, 02:25 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by StephenG Quote
relax buddy you getting a tad wound up there.. its only cameras we are talking.... you need to get a grip there on your chair, you getting a tad too excited here..

and why would pentax need 10x bigger r&d budget for a camera that already exists? they not reinventing the wheel.. they not coming up with a totally new concept and innovation....
you seem to believe that pentax are so far behind everyone else that they need a 10x bigger r&d budget to make what the others already have??
I have a little more faith in pentax than that...
No, they just need the same R&D budget as everyone else.

The fact that other people have developed FF cameras does not help much. You cant reuse any of their components or intellectual property. Pentax will still need to take a sensor they have never used before, develop a new imaging system and build a completely new body, AF system, mirror box etc. and make sure they are not infringing any existing paptents already lodged by Nikon and Canon. Then they have to sell enough to make a profit.

Of course they CAN build one, they are clever enough, its just a workload problem. But these things are considerably more complicated than you seem to think and developing the packaging and refining the image processing with a new sensor can take a lot of time and trial and error. It should also be obvious from Canons experience that even developing a new AF system can be quite hard work!

With more engineers working on other parts of the design in parallel, and with more experience with previous models, this process can be speeded up a lot. Pentax have neither as many engineers, nor any existing FF models to draw from.

You are grossly UNDERestimating the complexity of designing ANY new camera, or the effort Canon and Nikon have put in to developing their sensors and cameras. Canon and Nikon must be pretty incompetent if a minnow like Pentax can produce a first time out FF camera that matches them on IQ and performance, add extra features, for less cash and still make a profit with a far smaller customer base.
QuoteQuote:

now steve, either debate properly or rather not repond.

there is nothing to be gained in a discussion about cameras by you replying to me in an insulting or rude manner. rather stick to the topic at hand, than try insult and attack me ok?
There is nothing to be gained by debate if you simply repeat the same wishful thinking over and over again despite what are quite obvious issues which you fail to acknowledge.
03-09-2009, 03:19 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
I never said that: I said that, for the discerning amateur photographers, and if you put the quality/price ratio into the equation, Pentax blows away the competition in their segment (with the exception of Oly).

As for Canikon users, I bet there are many skilled photographers, but there are, at least, the same amount (and possibly more) who use their dSLR as if they were compact cameras: green position and shoot, nothing else to consider. While among Pentax users, those green-position-always users is a very small minority.

Of course IMHO and no offense intended to anybody. While Canon's offerings don't attract me at all, I have a huge respect for Nikon.
I can't help but find some delicious irony in that you deny any camera snobbery then in the same breath state that Pentax is for the "discerning" photographers.

Honestly, while the population of sites like this seems to indicate that the users are pretty savvy, I can damn near guarantee you that the "green position" users are NOT a "very small minority". If you only hung out on the FM Canon forum you'd get the same positive impression of Canon shooters. But the people who tend to find and participate in these forums (where people actually use complete sentences and generally respect each other) are a subset of the entire camera user population, and I'd daresay a relatively small one.

So while you might not intend to offend anybody, you are pretty much doing just that. It's like if you owned a Volvo and somebody came up and said "no offense, but most Volvo drivers are morons". Yeah, that's not offensive.
03-09-2009, 06:24 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Ladies and gentleman...

...Oh, crap, the Gestapo!

We know you have be writing anti-Pentax sentiments!

Oh, lordie, tell my family I love them.

We have a warrant for your arrest!

Except my brother, he can go to hell.
Thanks for the post. That's pretty funny.

QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
Once more, my usual example: Apple (paramount niche player) is sitting on top of a huge pile of cash. Yet they continue being a niche player, probably on purpose. Microsoft is sitting on top of an even bigger pile of cash. Now if you compare the size of both companies, an the size of their cash piles, it is obvious that Apple is outcompeting Microsoft.
How can Apple be niche? They're sitting on a pile of cash because of the success of the iPod and later on, the iPhone (both industry leading in sales), not because of OS X and their computers (which are the real niche products of Apple). If they didn't even have the foresight to make the iPod work with Windows, most people would likely be using Creative Zens right now and Nokias.

How do you define niche, anyway? They're certainly not doing anything special compared to their competition, only marketing it better, which speaks more of a mainstream company than a niche one.

QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
As for Canikon users, I bet there are many skilled photographers, but there are, at least, the same amount (and possibly more) who use their dSLR as if they were compact cameras: green position and shoot, nothing else to consider. While among Pentax users, those green-position-always users is a very small minority.
Do you have definitive proof on that? Statistics, please. And even if there are more Canon/Nikon users using their cameras in green mode, why should it matter? There are still pros and serious hobbyists that still choose to go Canon and Nikon. And from their skill level, I'm sure it's not simply because of the name on the pentaprism hump. Have you ever wondered why they didn't choose Pentax, knowing full well that, by your assumption, Pentax is the choice for more "discerning" photographers?

Lord knows I want Pentax to succeed, but I hope that we would avoid making gross and false assumptions on people using other brands of cameras. They're still photographers like you and me.

03-09-2009, 06:36 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
How can Apple be niche?
Clearly having some 70% of the MP3 player market makes them a niche brand, DUH.

They offer some niche products like the MacBook Air, but other than that they're pretty damn mainstream. It's really just the Apple users that like to think they're unique snowflakes... because you know there can only be a handful of people sitting around in Starbucks with their Macs and iPods.
03-09-2009, 08:46 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by RuiC Quote
From recent patent applications Pentax has a new mount in the works. That is definitive. To go with it they have a full compatibility adapter. What remains to be clarified is what compatibility is it. What new bodies(formats) will go with it and when.

RuiC
new mount? Why? There were compelling reasons to leave
the screw mount behind, mostly related to communications.

Now the only issues I see are the burden of backwards compatibilityi. I've expected that some day they would produce a alow end body that was 'SDM' only, but so far they haven't been very aggressive in intoducing low end SDM lenses.

Similarly that might be able to devalue all the 'A' series and FA lenses by eliminating the binary contacts, and using full digital communications through a couple contacts, but this would mostlly inflame the installed base without saving a lot of money.

Third, I suppose they could embrace some competitor's mount but it is hard to see how this would be a winner. --- who would really want a P camera with an N or C mount on the front of it.?

My interest in P is a 30 year accumulation of lenses, and I will hardly be an early adopter of a camera body that orphans those.
03-09-2009, 08:46 PM   #71
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Of course Apple is a niche player. OS X runs on less than 10% of the world's computers. The niche Apple operates in is the idea that software and hardware are tightly integrated, and this idea has followed into music players and mobile phones.

I expect someday, as with the Sony Walkman, the iPod craze will die down, and the idea of an mp3 player may well disappear. Apple understands this -- from what I can tell they're not concentrating on a product category, but the constant promotion of the idea of software/hardware integration that promotes ease of use.

I've often wondered if there is a parallel between Apple and Pentax. Emphasis on ergonomics, perhaps. But they're fairly different too -- Pentax is backwards-compatible, while Apple's happy to leave various hardware configurations behind. The Pentax experience is quite customizable, while Apple tends to plug a simpler interface. Pentax is value oriented; Apple certainly does not believe in a race to the bottom for their hardware.

But being a niche player can insulate you, to a certain degree, from larger industry problems. I wonder if Pentax will go the route *isteve (for example) has suggested. It has previously been positioned as a value-oriented dSLR in tandem with being a quality lens maker. But as camera bodies become more like commodities, I wonder if the idea of a niche body (continuing the differentiation started via incorporating weather-sealing, shake reduction -- but become really less and less comparable with Canon and Nikon's offereings) won't have to accelerate.
03-09-2009, 10:23 PM   #72
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I never see the similarity of Apple and Pentax. Apple is the master of marketing, while Pentax is on the opposite end of the spectrum. Maybe compare to Palm it makes more sense.

In an alternately world where German car doesn't exist. Canon is Toyota, Nikon is Honda and Pentax is Mazda.
03-09-2009, 11:00 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
As for Canikon users, I bet there are many skilled photographers, but there are, at least, the same amount (and possibly more) who use their dSLR as if they were compact cameras: green position and shoot, nothing else to consider. While among Pentax users, those green-position-always users is a very small minority.
can you please publish your study findings and base material here on the site for us to see how you got to that statement about green button users??

I have asked all the people I know who use Pentax and none of them seem to have been part of this study?? or any of the canon or nikon guys either.

maybe you limited your field of data to only your home town? could you confirm that for us?

or did you just pull that statement out your ass ??
03-09-2009, 11:16 PM   #74
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much better Steve, no name calling or being rude... just because someone has a diferent wish list to you.

but now lets look at YOUR wish list....

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote

High level of "on the trail" autonomy (multi SD cards, high capacity battery etc).

"custom grip" which could contain a high capacity battery pack, GPS, built in high 128 GB SSD etc). to enable the cam to go 3-4 days away from backup and electical supplies.

So basically I expect an upgraded K20D (faster, less noise, better AF) but in a seriously tough but compact body.
how much R&D do you think that would require??

you are asking them to come up with stuff that does not yet exist in any camera model anywhere..

surely that will require a fair amount of R&D ?? which you say they dont have?

if their R&D can come up with the MF thats been announced,
I would tend to believe that thier R&D can come up with a product like my wishlist.
03-09-2009, 11:36 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
new mount? Why? There were compelling reasons to leave
the screw mount behind, mostly related to communications.

Now the only issues I see are the burden of backwards compatibilityi. I've expected that some day they would produce a alow end body that was 'SDM' only, but so far they haven't been very aggressive in intoducing low end SDM lenses.

Similarly that might be able to devalue all the 'A' series and FA lenses by eliminating the binary contacts, and using full digital communications through a couple contacts, but this would mostlly inflame the installed base without saving a lot of money.

Third, I suppose they could embrace some competitor's mount but it is hard to see how this would be a winner. --- who would really want a P camera with an N or C mount on the front of it.?

My interest in P is a 30 year accumulation of lenses, and I will hardly be an early adopter of a camera body that orphans those.

I tried to communicate my thoughts on this earlier. I think a very good reason for looking at a new mount for Pentax is that with APS-C the mirror is smaller, and the lenses could therefore be mounted closer to the sensor. If Pentax are really serious of becoming one of the leading APS-C players, why not optimise for this, by taking away 5-6 mm of this distance to allow them to make smaller cameras? The camera will of course be delivered with an adapter so that all K-lenses still fit, but if you buy one of the new lenses, that adapter can be taken off. New buyers will of course only buy the new lenses and will always have a smaller camera. I think this is the only logical way forward for Pentax (assuming they can make the adapter work for all old lenses, and assuming they have fully decided not to try and fight in the FF segment). I think the revival of the D645 strengthens this thinking as well, with an MF camera, the need for a FF would be completely gone (if the need ever existed). Maybe someone with more optical knowledge can comment on this. If you moved the lenses closer to the sensor, would for instance the DA 40 have to get bigger, or could it be redesigned and come out approximately the same size as before? Or would it even be that maybe 30mm would be optimum to make really small? If you have to make lenses bigger to compensate, the above reasoning should be ignored :-)
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