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03-10-2009, 12:06 AM   #76
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There is no need for that. Look at what Canon did with the EF-S mount... more or less the same mount, but the lens elements can go deeper into the body. Pentax could do the same (but I doubt they'll do it).

03-10-2009, 12:14 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
[url linked to RH blog]
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/other/2009/03/09/10386.html
A lot of answers to our questions.
Hoya/Pentax has no any relations with Samsung in NX project.
Please people, can we stop posting links to RH site?
This would only serve to elevate his web site ranking in search engines.
03-10-2009, 12:15 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
Personally, they don't have to match or exceed what Canon does, but they could at least show improvement on key marketing points like AF speed and FPS. For example, I think a lot of Pentax users will upgrade their DSLRs should Pentax release a KxxD with 4-5 FPS and improved AF. It doesn't have to be class-leading, but it should at least show improvement. Coupled with unique features Pentax already has (SR and sealing), and you can get a good portion of those people still holding on to their K10Ds and earlier DSLRs to upgrade, and even get some others interested.

I believe there are a lot of people with old Pentax DSLRs who still hold on to them because they don't see much value in upgrading. For some, it is, after all, the same 3 FPS and SAFOX VIII Pentax has in the higher 2 of their three DSLRs (I think the K-m does 3.5 FPS?). The sensor is already there, and Pentax can get much mileage out of that still, so I would hope they're working on other aspects of the camera now.
Totally agree!! I am one of those people you are talking about. Just by looking at how Olympus address on the speed and accuracy of their new AF system. I don't think it's about niche or mainstream, It's the BASIS of a system. Once Pentax got their fast and accurate AF, AE and Auto WB then they can go anywhere niche they like, without being criticised on any of these "issues".
03-10-2009, 01:29 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
I can't help but find some delicious irony in that you deny any camera snobbery then in the same breath state that Pentax is for the "discerning" photographers.
Sorry but I don't get it: by stating that Pentax is for discerning photographers, why I am snobbish? I think it's the truth, just like I stated that Canon/Nikon excel in pro photography, while Pentax does not. Just like I could say that people buying GE cameras are entirely another category. Not snobbery: just my opinion, you are free to disagree, but I see no reason to try and disqualify mine on the base of being "snobbery".

QuoteQuote:
Honestly, while the population of sites like this seems to indicate that the users are pretty savvy, I can damn near guarantee you that the "green position" users are NOT a "very small minority". If you only hung out on the FM Canon forum you'd get the same positive impression of Canon shooters. But the people who tend to find and participate in these forums (where people actually use complete sentences and generally respect each other) are a subset of the entire camera user population, and I'd daresay a relatively small one.
Maybe you are right, but my feeling is different.

QuoteQuote:
So while you might not intend to offend anybody, you are pretty much doing just that. It's like if you owned a Volvo and somebody came up and said "no offense, but most Volvo drivers are morons". Yeah, that's not offensive.
You seem to find some pleasure in trying to make me say what I did not say. I never used the word "moron". You did, not me.

QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
How can Apple be niche? They're sitting on a pile of cash because of the success of the iPod and later on, the iPhone (both industry leading in sales), not because of OS X and their computers (which are the real niche products of Apple). If they didn't even have the foresight to make the iPod work with Windows, most people would likely be using Creative Zens right now and Nokias.
As replied before by others, you are a niche player when you decide you will target a specific subset of users. Apple target is extremely clear, and their success lies, IMO, in the fact that they have been tightly focused to fullfill their needs since 1997, when Jobs returned home.

QuoteQuote:
How do you define niche, anyway? They're certainly not doing anything special compared to their competition, only marketing it better, which speaks more of a mainstream company than a niche one.
If you honestly think that way, then it is not worth to continue arguing. I mean, these days, there is clearly loads of things that Apple is doing better than the competition, and marketing is the less important one. But this is Pentax forum, so I won't continue in that direction. I just suggest you to get better information.

QuoteQuote:
Do you have definitive proof on that? Statistics, please. And even if there are more Canon/Nikon users using their cameras in green mode, why should it matter? There are still pros and serious hobbyists that still choose to go Canon and Nikon. And from their skill level, I'm sure it's not simply because of the name on the pentaprism hump. Have you ever wondered why they didn't choose Pentax, knowing full well that, by your assumption, Pentax is the choice for more "discerning" photographers?
I never did statistics studies, just like anybody else here. And just like anybody else here, I just posted my opinion. So try to keep the discussion within those limits.

QuoteQuote:
Lord knows I want Pentax to succeed, but I hope that we would avoid making gross and false assumptions on people using other brands of cameras. They're still photographers like you and me.
I agree, but again IMHO there are differences. Following the analogy, OS X and Vista users are all computer users. But they are quite different, that I can ensure you. And in a similar way, Pentax users are (IMHO), just like Oly users, quite different to Canon or Nikon users. Maybe I am alone in seeing that difference, but there IS a difference.

QuoteOriginally posted by StephenG Quote
can you please publish your study findings and base material here on the site for us to see how you got to that statement about green button users??

I have asked all the people I know who use Pentax and none of them seem to have been part of this study?? or any of the canon or nikon guys either.

maybe you limited your field of data to only your home town? could you confirm that for us?

or did you just pull that statement out your ass ??
I am really shocked to see again this kind of reply. Let me turn the argument the other way around: anybody else, posting his opinions, is always required to show his research results? Why are your opinions founded and not mine? What does give your opinion more validity, while mine should require data for support?

Of course my opinions are based on what I know; and beyond my little world, I read a lot on photography. A lot, to try and have objective information on the world out there. So again, please try to use reasons instead of cheap disqualifications, in order to continue the discussion. Otherwise there is no point, because I coud just the same say that your statements came also "out your ass".


Last edited by cateto; 03-10-2009 at 01:43 AM.
03-10-2009, 06:21 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by StephenG Quote
much better Steve, no name calling or being rude... just because someone has a diferent wish list to you.

but now lets look at YOUR wish list....



how much R&D do you think that would require??

you are asking them to come up with stuff that does not yet exist in any camera model anywhere..

surely that will require a fair amount of R&D ?? which you say they dont have?

if their R&D can come up with the MF thats been announced,
I would tend to believe that thier R&D can come up with a product like my wishlist.
This is not about what I want, its about what I think they are about to do based on announcements and the state of the industry.

Your only contribution to the discussion on the other hand is to simply bash on and on about your "wishlist". Frankly since you seem to offer very little actual insight, I dont find a discussion of your personal desires all that interesting.

Thank god for ignore lists. Being patronised by you again would probably have physical symptoms.
03-10-2009, 06:44 AM   #81
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steve - relax dude...

GPS in a battery grip ?? u got that from "announcments and the state of the industry" ??

Steve, pal, you offer absolutely no insights at all... but seem to go from the sublime to the ridiculous with your 'wish list'...

what you want GPS for, to find your way home again?
03-10-2009, 07:02 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
As replied before by others, you are a niche player when you decide you will target a specific subset of users. Apple target is extremely clear, and their success lies, IMO, in the fact that they have been tightly focused to fullfill their needs since 1997, when Jobs returned home.
Hmm, maybe we just see Apple differently, but I do see them targeting a broader subset of people with their newer products. Maybe they were once a niche company, but they're certainly mainstream now.

QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
If you honestly think that way, then it is not worth to continue arguing. I mean, these days, there is clearly loads of things that Apple is doing better than the competition, and marketing is the less important one. But this is Pentax forum, so I won't continue in that direction. I just suggest you to get better information.
Marketing *is* the biggest thing they're doing now. Unless you want to consider the legal battles they're waging on some dubious companies (like Psystar - I'm with Apple on this one) or rattling their patent saber (like the veiled threats on Palm Pre, which I don't really appreciate), they pretty much have a good set of products loved by a lot of people already (not just a subset). Their products lately are more evolutionary than creating a niche (can't blame them, they've cornered some markets already).

Thanks for your suggestion, patronizing as it may seem (I'm not totally clueless to Apple as you might think ). But yes, back to Pentax. To wit, there actually are better media players than the iPod (better sound quality at least), but brand recognition (garnered through marketing) plays a big part (not all, but a big part) in making the decision for people. Pentax can take a cue there also by getting brand recognition through marketing, of which we can agree is behind what others are doing (even behind Olympus).

Maybe with a full dedication to one niche market (rugged cameras and small primes seem to be it) and marketing the hell out of it, Pentax can at least be the de facto choice for those subset of people, and may even be seen as nice to have features by people who don't really need those features, if priced fairly.

QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
I agree, but again IMHO there are differences. Following the analogy, OS X and Vista users are all computer users. But they are quite different, that I can ensure you. And in a similar way, Pentax users are (IMHO), just like Oly users, quite different to Canon or Nikon users. Maybe I am alone in seeing that difference, but there IS a difference.
No brand or system defines the difference between photographers, only the vision (and possibly whether we make money out of our work and not), at least for me. Most of us pretty much make do with the best system accessories we can buy. Again, we may be seeing things differently, and that's fine. I respect your POV.

QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
I am really shocked to see again this kind of reply. Let me turn the argument the other way around: anybody else, posting his opinions, is always required to show his research results? Why are your opinions founded and not mine? What does give your opinion more validity, while mine should require data for support?

Of course my opinions are based on what I know; and beyond my little world, I read a lot on photography. A lot, to try and have objective information on the world out there. So again, please try to use reasons instead of cheap disqualifications, in order to continue the discussion. Otherwise there is no point, because I coud just the same say that your statements came also "out your ass".
I may not own a Canon or Nikon, but I still respect them for the work they do, be it green mode or not. The final outputs are the pictures, and not the shooting mode used to take that photo. Isn't it also bad that you take potshots at a group of photographers who for the most part, doesn't even know you're taking shots at them (aside from some forum members, and one moderator, I believe, who use Canon and Nikon here)?

Now if you want me to give reasons as to why I think a lot of Canon and Nikon users are as serious as Pentax users are with their photography, there are a thousand and one professional and hobbyist photographers out there who queued up for a 5D Mark II, as well as the myriads who trooped to the D700 (with some forum members here and DPReview even going Nikon's way and note how both cameras have no scene modes). There are even more personal and public sites with great works taken with Canons and Nikons.

Last edited by vinzer; 03-10-2009 at 07:14 AM.
03-10-2009, 07:04 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by StephenG Quote
steve - relax dude...

GPS in a battery grip ?? u got that from "announcments and the state of the industry" ??

Steve, pal, you offer absolutely no insights at all... but seem to go from the sublime to the ridiculous with your 'wish list'...

what you want GPS for, to find your way home again?
Excuse me? I can't understand why people keep belittling GPS support. Not everybody shoots at their backyard/garden...there are people who actually go out into the wilderness. Also, there are people who need a weatherproof camera to document their study sites. I do both. Especially the latter activity benefits greatly from GPS info in the EXIF. Documenting hundreds of sites is very repetitive and there is no way in hell to actually distinguish between individual sites later on. Geotagging is crucial here but is great also for recreational or nature photography (i.e. the former activity).

I dont't care to comment on the non-bolded parts of the message or the previous exchange...

03-10-2009, 07:08 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boucicaut Quote
Excuse me? I can't understand why people keep belittling GPS support. Not everybody shoots at their backyard/garden...there are people who actually go out into the wilderness. Also, there are people who need a weatherproof camera to document their study sites. I do both. Especially the latter activity benefits greatly from GPS info in the EXIF. Documenting hundreds of sites is very repetitive and there is no way in hell to actually distinguish between individual sites later on. Geotagging is crucial here but is great also for recreational or nature photography (i.e. the former activity).

I dont't care to comment on the non-bolded parts of the message or the previous exchange...
can you give an specific example?

in all sincerity Boucicaut - what is it exactly you photograph and how would the GPS coordinates benefit / be of use?? I am really interested to know ?
03-10-2009, 07:25 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by StephenG Quote
can you give an specific example?

in all sincerity Boucicaut - what is it exactly you photograph and how would the GPS coordinates benefit / be of use?? I am really interested to know ?
Well, I study stream ecology for a living and, therefore, take loads of pictures of stream riffles and rapids, i.e. the locations where I do the sampling, measurements and other research activity. Documentation types of photos are always quite similar to each other, they kind of have to be, as there isn't much room for creativity there. After a couple hundred sampling sites it becomes rather difficult to remember which photos were from which stream. You have to either look at time stamps and compare with your field notes or use a separate gps unit that is always on and is synchronized with the camera clock. There's software for extracting the coordinate data from the GPS file and uploading it into the EXIF data of the relevant images. Both solutions work but I don't like the complexity. I'd much prefer to have a single unit that is weatherproof and has built-in GPS support (in grip or otherwise).

Same benefits for shooting nature, although it is generally much easier to remember where the photos were taken, because of the creative approach. But even with these, it will certainly be nice to open the files a few years from now and instantly and reliably be able to put them on the map.
03-10-2009, 07:30 AM   #86
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Boucicaut, Samsung showed a handgrip last year with embedded GPS. Is that what you are referring to? I'm curious if Pentax is planning on releasing that under their name, or supporting a Samsung grip with this capability in the K20D thru firmware.

I definitely wish I had this on my trip to Tanzania. I'm going on a cruise in the Baltic Sea this summer and would love to have it for that too.
03-10-2009, 07:40 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by whatever7 Quote
I never see the similarity of Apple and Pentax. Apple is the master of marketing, while Pentax is on the opposite end of the spectrum. Maybe compare to Palm it makes more sense.

In an alternately world where German car doesn't exist. Canon is Toyota, Nikon is Honda and Pentax is Mazda.
Palm would be a good example, I think. Great products, only bad marketing. I'm holding out hope for the Pre, though. Looks to be like a good product, possible iPhone killer, but again, without marketing, it might be overshadowed by the likes of Android and the iPhone.

QuoteOriginally posted by quarc Quote
I tried to communicate my thoughts on this earlier. I think a very good reason for looking at a new mount for Pentax is that with APS-C the mirror is smaller, and the lenses could therefore be mounted closer to the sensor. If Pentax are really serious of becoming one of the leading APS-C players, why not optimise for this, by taking away 5-6 mm of this distance to allow them to make smaller cameras? The camera will of course be delivered with an adapter so that all K-lenses still fit, but if you buy one of the new lenses, that adapter can be taken off. New buyers will of course only buy the new lenses and will always have a smaller camera. I think this is the only logical way forward for Pentax (assuming they can make the adapter work for all old lenses, and assuming they have fully decided not to try and fight in the FF segment). I think the revival of the D645 strengthens this thinking as well, with an MF camera, the need for a FF would be completely gone (if the need ever existed). Maybe someone with more optical knowledge can comment on this. If you moved the lenses closer to the sensor, would for instance the DA 40 have to get bigger, or could it be redesigned and come out approximately the same size as before? Or would it even be that maybe 30mm would be optimum to make really small? If you have to make lenses bigger to compensate, the above reasoning should be ignored :-)
Good idea. I'm not opposed to future cameras behaving similar to the EF-S mount, but that would really put a nail in the coffin for Pentax 35mm DSLR, at least in the short term. Well, at least that's a definite sign from Pentax, as opposed to hints taken from loosely-translated interviews. Would be really nice to have a Japanese speaker here.

I'm no camera expert, so I don't know if the current DA lenses need any redesigning, but I don't see why it wouldn't fit your proposed mount unless re-engineered. I believe the EF-S mount enabled Canon to do smaller lenses than EF ones (feel free to correct me if I am wrong), so it could be the same for Pentax.

QuoteOriginally posted by a a i b Quote
Of course Apple is a niche player. OS X runs on less than 10% of the world's computers. The niche Apple operates in is the idea that software and hardware are tightly integrated, and this idea has followed into music players and mobile phones.

I expect someday, as with the Sony Walkman, the iPod craze will die down, and the idea of an mp3 player may well disappear. Apple understands this -- from what I can tell they're not concentrating on a product category, but the constant promotion of the idea of software/hardware integration that promotes ease of use.

I've often wondered if there is a parallel between Apple and Pentax. Emphasis on ergonomics, perhaps. But they're fairly different too -- Pentax is backwards-compatible, while Apple's happy to leave various hardware configurations behind. The Pentax experience is quite customizable, while Apple tends to plug a simpler interface. Pentax is value oriented; Apple certainly does not believe in a race to the bottom for their hardware.

But being a niche player can insulate you, to a certain degree, from larger industry problems. I wonder if Pentax will go the route *isteve (for example) has suggested. It has previously been positioned as a value-oriented dSLR in tandem with being a quality lens maker. But as camera bodies become more like commodities, I wonder if the idea of a niche body (continuing the differentiation started via incorporating weather-sealing, shake reduction -- but become really less and less comparable with Canon and Nikon's offereings) won't have to accelerate.
True, Apple may seem niche in some areas, but I don't think that's because they intended for OS X to be niche. It's just plain hard to wean people away from Windows, even with all its warts.

I'm fine with Pentax being niche, as long as they still keep improving on core features (like I said earlier, not class leading, but still improving over their previous generation of DSLRs). I'm all for weather-sealing, especially since I'm living in a tropical country. I wonder if they can cram an APS-C sensor and relevant electronics in an ME-type body. I'm hoping miniaturization technologies have matured enough to enable that. Besides, they can save some space on the prism some, since it's APS-C anyway.

QuoteOriginally posted by yakiniku Quote
Totally agree!! I am one of those people you are talking about. Just by looking at how Olympus address on the speed and accuracy of their new AF system. I don't think it's about niche or mainstream, It's the BASIS of a system. Once Pentax got their fast and accurate AF, AE and Auto WB then they can go anywhere niche they like, without being criticised on any of these "issues".
I can't comment much on AE, since I primarily use center-weighted average than matrix metering, but AF can possibly be made faster still. I'm fine with the accuracy of SAFOX VIII, really. An AF-assist lamp would be greatly appreciated, and something a lot of manufacturers skimp on their budget models (save for Nikon).

Let's hope for improvements on this, even if modest.

QuoteOriginally posted by StephenG Quote
can you give an specific example?

in all sincerity Boucicaut - what is it exactly you photograph and how would the GPS coordinates benefit / be of use?? I am really interested to know ?
I'll bite. I'd love to be able to specifically pinpoint where I stood when I took my photos. Partly for romantic purposes (memories and all that), and partly so I could share with other people that same vantage point. If ever I got a keeper of, say, a beautiful and relatively unique view of a rolling hillside, I would want to share that same vista to my friends and other photographers willing to listen.

Well, that's the allure of GPS-tagging for me. To have it in-camera is a tremendous boost as opposed to carrying another piece of equipment to record it.
03-10-2009, 07:51 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
Boucicaut, Samsung showed a handgrip last year with embedded GPS. Is that what you are referring to? I'm curious if Pentax is planning on releasing that under their name, or supporting a Samsung grip with this capability in the K20D thru firmware.

I definitely wish I had this on my trip to Tanzania. I'm going on a cruise in the Baltic Sea this summer and would love to have it for that too.
m80, yes that's pretty much what I had in mind. Having GPS in the grip would have the benefit of being able to go with a lighter kit when GPS is not needed. The negative aspect is, of course, having to pay for both the body and the grip.

I have invested rather heavily into Pentax film gear lately so I am in no shape to buy expensive new DSLR bodies with grips A dedicated film scanner is probably all I can get this year, apart from a few filters and such.

Off topic on the Baltic Sea: I used to work for the Finnish Environment Institute a few years back and got on several sampling trips on their research vessel. I took benthic invertebrate samples form the sea bottom all along the southern coast of Finland and was appalled at the state of the sea. Especially towards the east (St Petersburgh waste water) the sea bottom became completely inoxic with nothing living down there, just black slime that looked like oil and smelled of sulphure (indicating decomposition in inoxic conditions). I have images of the stuff, but they're not with me right now. Same thing even in some parts towards the west, especially near fish farming sites. Was a real eye opener for me and I only buy wild fish nowadays. I don't want to support the fish farming industry anymore.

But it does look nice and photographic on the surface
03-10-2009, 07:53 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
It's really just the Apple users that like to think they're unique snowflakes... because you know there can only be a handful of people sitting around in Starbucks with their Macs and iPods.
Well, some of them really are fanatical about Apple, kinda like photographers. They're not all bad. Some of them have good reason to stick to Apple. I know I would've wanted to use Final Cut Pro (it's pretty darn good - tried it on a classmate's unit) in film school back in the day, only I don't have the money (nor does the school) for that, along with a machine capable of running it.

I have disdain for those people so fanatical that they refer to the iPhone as JesusPhone (I mean, really, it's THAT perfect?) and think that Apple-does-no-wrong, but I'm cool with other sensible Apple product users.

QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
Third, I suppose they could embrace some competitor's mount but it is hard to see how this would be a winner. --- who would really want a P camera with an N or C mount on the front of it.?
Allow me to play devil's advocate.

It would definitely pique a lot of people's interests if someone could come up with a Canon or Nikon mount camera with in-body IS.

Of course, Pentax won't do that, at least I don't see them doing that in the short term.

QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
My interest in P is a 30 year accumulation of lenses, and I will hardly be an early adopter of a camera body that orphans those.
I don't have as big a lens collection you do, but one of the allures of Pentax for me is the ability to use old lenses. So yes, a new mount from Pentax that totally disallows the use of their old lenses won't tempt me one bit. It's pretty much like starting from scratch.
03-10-2009, 08:09 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
There is no need for that. Look at what Canon did with the EF-S mount... more or less the same mount, but the lens elements can go deeper into the body. Pentax could do the same (but I doubt they'll do it).
Canon maintained the same registration distance though. EF mount lenses will therefore mount on EF-S bodies without a problem.

But people are proposing going to a different mount while reducing the registration distance for a more compact body. That would require an adapter to use K mount lenses, and the adapter would add in the same thickness you just managed to remove...
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