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03-12-2009, 11:15 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
It is not a whole new system.
It is a different body design, but that doesn't have to take several years to make.
Basic electronics and stuff were already designed, for the "K20D replacement".
The lens mechanism isn't completely new, it is just an update to the existing one in the SDM lenses.
OK so we basically agree: minor technological upgrades wrapped in major cosmetic changes.

Sounds about right. I am only talking of what was decided after Photokina 2008, hopefully, the work they did before that includes some work in more important areas.

I think the AF needs a real update and also hope that the sensor will have evolved a bit (Samsung said they had made progress on the 14, 6MP for the NX if I remember well): these are the fundamentals for improved photographic capabilities, pretty far ahead before an improved live view or an original look IMHO.

03-13-2009, 02:10 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
I think the AF needs a real update and also hope that the sensor will have evolved a bit (Samsung said they had made progress on the 14, 6MP for the NX if I remember well): these are the fundamentals for improved photographic capabilities, pretty far ahead before an improved live view or an original look IMHO.
The AF seems to have improved in the K-m. The pessimist in me tells me that this is because of the simplified AF-system of the K-m, but the optimist says that this is just a taste of a revised AF system in the new model Now I'm actually very happy with the AF in my K10D (late production model), but faster AF.C that works with other lenses than my (apparently very good for continuous AF) DA70 would be a great improvement.

If they keep the Samsung/Pentax sensor, I think we have very good reason to believe that the new version of the sensor is less noisy. Let's say they manage to bring ISO 100 DR up to K10D levels, and ISO 6400 noise levels down to current K20D ISO 3200 levels. Wouldn't that be great?

If, in addition, they add a slightly more usable Live View, and a faster continuous shooting rate (so it doesn't look completely silly in side by side comparisons), and pack this in a uniquely designed body, I think we have a winner.

And I will get serious CBA
03-13-2009, 04:28 AM   #138
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It is a common myth in this forum that the faster autofocus in the K-m is beacuse the autofocus is simpler. Those that believes this myth obviously has no knowledge about the *ist DL2. You see, the *ist DL2 has the same simpler autofocus as the K-m, with 5 autofocus points and no manual selection of individual autofocus point other than center point. Still, the autofocus in the *ist DL2 is much slower than the autofocus in the K-m.
So this is evidence that the K-m indeed has new algorithms "under the hood".
03-13-2009, 04:31 AM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Let's say they manage to bring ISO 100 DR up to K10D levels
Not possible since the actual base ISO of the sensor in the K20D is 200, while it is ISO 100 on the K10D. The K10D is a 100 - 1600 sensor, the K20D is a 200-3200 sensor.
ISO 6400 and ISO 100 on K20D are done with software tweaks, unfortunately those introduces noise.

Of course Samsung could make their sensor a 100-1600 one, just like the K10D, but that would mean worse 3200 and even worse 6400 performance than today.

03-13-2009, 04:45 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Not possible since the actual base ISO of the sensor in the K20D is 200, while it is ISO 100 on the K10D. The K10D is a 100 - 1600 sensor, the K20D is a 200-3200 sensor.
I'm sorry, but this is wrong and probably another myth.
This was a rumor around the time of the introduction of the K20D.
It has been shown since then, e.g. by GordonBGood on dpreview that it is not correct.
The base ISO is 100.
03-13-2009, 04:48 AM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Please read my rewrite of the translation into easy question and answer form. There simply isn't room here to get into all the details.
The problem with your translation is that you skip the other informations from Pentax.
To understand Pentax, one has to read it all. It is like a puzzle game, to combine what different representatives from Pentax says and combine them into one image.
You fail to do this.

Mr John Carson, product mananger of Pentax US, has said the new camera will have an enhanced live view function, and be more advanced than the K20D. Now, this includes contrast detect autofocus, since the K20D does not have live view autofocus. (how can live view function from the K20D be enhanced without adding autofocus?!).

It is a fact that contrast detect AF needs change in lenses. Just look at the 4/3 system where only the newest lenses are compatible with contrast detect AF.

Combine this information - enhanced live view functionality with contrast detect AF that requires updated autofocus in the lenses - with the fact that Pentax are releasing new lens series with no optical change.

Contrast detect AF does not need optical change, but it needs internal updates to the AF system - just like Olympus are doing.

So here you have it - new lenses will have improved autofocus to work with the new enhanced live view function. It is all there in the information!

So, it is not only cosmetical changes as you are "reading in between the lines".
Sorry, but I fail to see how you read anything "inbetween the lines".

You mest read the interview in the context of what other Pentax representatives has said and to combine this information into one to get a clear image. (pun intented).

Also note what Hoya wrote in their Q3 report, about new compact, robust and weather sealed cameras to be introduced this year and a new focus (!) on lenses, a shift in product policy. Of course the new bodies talked about here was existing on the Pentax R&D when Hoya wrote the Q3-report.

Again, it is all there in the information.
It is just about combining what Pentax has said into one.

And understand that in the interview he says that Limiteds will match the new camera. This doesn't mean that the design of the camera will match the new Limiteds, it is more a point out that the new camera will be small and compact. Pentax are already saying that the K-m matches the Limiteds well, and it has no Limited-influenced design. It is all about size.

He gives an example of DA 15 to show how Pentax designs products by heart.
It does not mean that the new body will look like a DA 15, it simply means that the new body also will be designed by the heart. It gives no hint about lettering on the Pentax-logo on the body or things like that, it is simply a statement about not designing products like everyone else is doing - not designing products after rational thinking, but to design products after the heart.
03-13-2009, 04:52 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Please read my rewrite of the translation into easy question and answer form. There simply isn't room here to get into all the details.
The problem with your translation is that you skip the other informations from Pentax.
To understand Pentax, one has to read it all. It is like a puzzle game, to combine what different representatives from Pentax says and combine them into one image.
You fail to do this.

Mr John Carson, product mananger of Pentax US, has said the new camera will have an enhanced live view function, and be more advanced than the K20D. Now, this includes contrast detect autofocus, since the K20D does not have live view autofocus. (how can live view function from the K20D be enhanced without adding autofocus?!).

It is a fact that contrast detect AF needs change in lenses. Just look at the 4/3 system where only the newest lenses are compatible with contrast detect AF.

Combine this information - enhanced live view functionality with contrast detect AF that requires updated autofocus in the lenses - with the fact that Pentax are releasing new lens series with no optical change.

Contrast detect AF does not need optical change, but it needs internal updates to the AF system - just like Olympus are doing.

So here you have it - new lenses will have improved autofocus to work with the new enhanced live view function. It is all there in the information!

So, it is not only cosmetical changes as you are "reading in between the lines".
Sorry, but I fail to see how you read anything "inbetween the lines".

You mest read the interview in the context of what other Pentax representatives has said and to combine this information into one to get a clear image. (pun intented).

Also note what Hoya wrote in their Q3 report, about new compact, robust and weather sealed cameras to be introduced this year and a new focus (!) on lenses, a shift in product policy. Of course the new bodies talked about here was existing on the Pentax R&D when Hoya wrote the Q3-report.

Again, it is all there in the information.
It is just about combining what Pentax has said into one.

And understand that in the interview he says that Limiteds will match the new camera. This doesn't mean that the design of the camera will match the new Limiteds, it is more a point out that the new camera will be small and compact. Pentax are already saying that the K-m matches the Limiteds well, and it has no Limited-influenced design. It is all about size.

He gives an example of DA 15 to show how Pentax designs products by heart.
It does not mean that the new body will look like a DA 15, it simply means that the new body also will be designed by the heart. It gives no hint about lettering on the Pentax-logo on the body or things like that, it is simply a statement about not designing products like everyone else is doing - not designing products after rational thinking, but to design products after the heart.

The K-m is already the "KD Limited" from Pentax point of view, and it shares no design elements with the Limiteds, still it is a "match for the Limiteds" according to Pentax.
So why would the new body "match for the Limiteds" look like the Limiteds when the existing match to the Limiteds (K-m) doesn't? So, I see this as evidence that your interpretation is wrong. You have to understand how Pentax thinks to read out what they mean.
03-13-2009, 05:01 AM   #143
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About this talk about 24x36 and 645D.
It is official from Pentax that the 645D project is "de-frozen".
Note now that Pentax has said before that they can't do both 645D and 24x36, because they don't have available resources. They must choose, and they have choosen the 645D. So no 24x36 from Pentax in the foreseen future. Releasing the 645D also means Pentax needs new lenses for it, and to update the 645D in the future. All this eats resources.

Pentax does not have enough resources to spend on keeping three systems - 645D, 24x36 and APS-C - on the market alive and well. Most concentration on APS-C, and some on the 645D, eats it all up. Nothing left for 24x36.

The 645D needs to be marketed and distributed etc.
So no magical free of resources to spend on 24x36 when the 645D is released on the market, there will still be resources needed to keep the 645D alive on the market and to continue development of it's successor.

However, Samsung may spend resources on 24x36 - in addition to their NX-project.
So it might come a 24x36 with K-mount, from Samsung.
From Pentax - not yet, not now, not in the foreseen future.
Future is clouded, I sense dark forces nearby from Canon and Nikon.
But yes, there might another twin...
You see, it is all needed to create balance in the force.

03-13-2009, 05:10 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Not possible since the actual base ISO of the sensor in the K20D is 200, while it is ISO 100 on the K10D. The K10D is a 100 - 1600 sensor, the K20D is a 200-3200 sensor.
Gordon asked you where you got this information on the dpr forum, and I don't think you've answered (he thinks it looks like "real" ISO 100).

And why shouldn't it be possible? The stellar performance of the K10D at exactly ISO 100 may be hard to match, but Canon 50D beats the K10D on DR from about ISO 150 upwards, according to the dxomark graphs.
03-13-2009, 05:13 AM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
It is a common myth in this forum that the faster autofocus in the K-m is beacuse the autofocus is simpler. Those that believes this myth obviously has no knowledge about the *ist DL2. You see, the *ist DL2 has the same simpler autofocus as the K-m, with 5 autofocus points and no manual selection of individual autofocus point other than center point. Still, the autofocus in the *ist DL2 is much slower than the autofocus in the K-m.
So this is evidence that the K-m indeed has new algorithms "under the hood".
I don't think I would accept that as hard evidence, but I think you're right.
03-13-2009, 05:47 AM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Mr John Carson, product mananger of Pentax US, has said the new camera will have an enhanced live view function, and be more advanced than the K20D.
You have referenced this a couple times in posts. Do you have a link to this comment? I haven't seen anything yet where this was said and I was wondering where your information came from?
03-13-2009, 06:07 AM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
The AF seems to have improved in the K-m. The pessimist in me tells me that this is because of the simplified AF-system of the K-m, but the optimist says that this is just a taste of a revised AF system in the new model Now I'm actually very happy with the AF in my K10D (late production model), but faster AF.C that works with other lenses than my (apparently very good for continuous AF) DA70 would be a great improvement.

If they keep the Samsung/Pentax sensor, I think we have very good reason to believe that the new version of the sensor is less noisy. Let's say they manage to bring ISO 100 DR up to K10D levels, and ISO 6400 noise levels down to current K20D ISO 3200 levels. Wouldn't that be great?

If, in addition, they add a slightly more usable Live View, and a faster continuous shooting rate (so it doesn't look completely silly in side by side comparisons), and pack this in a uniquely designed body, I think we have a winner.

And I will get serious CBA
I wouldn't ask for more and CBA would also probably be a problem for me .....
03-13-2009, 10:49 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
the *ist DL2 has the same simpler autofocus as the K-m, with 5 autofocus points and no manual selection of individual autofocus point other than center point. Still, the autofocus in the *ist DL2 is much slower than the autofocus in the K-m.
What you are saying here is that the DL2 had a simpler autofocus too, and that it was slower.

That has little to do with whether the K-m improvement will easily carry over to a more complex AF, although I certainly hope so.


QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
So this is evidence that the K-m indeed has new algorithms "under the hood".
It's pretty obvious (at least to those who tried it) that the K-m has an improved AF compared to older similar model.

Whether similar improvement would apply to 11 point (or more) selectable AF is possible and highly desirable, but at this point still pure speculation.
03-13-2009, 02:07 PM   #149
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RMabo, you have made your point amply clear through repetition. This makes it no more correct than had it been said just once. Ultimately it is a matter of opinion. But since new feature speculation has proven false every single other time, I am backing the conservative interpretation, reading nothing else into the interview and not including contradictory facts from less authoritative sources.
03-13-2009, 04:28 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
(how can live view function from the K20D be enhanced without adding autofocus?!)
For starters:
  • Higher pixel-density display
  • Magnification that actually adds more detail from the sensor and doesn't just pixel-double
  • Faster refresh rate (or lower latency, or whatever that delay is)
  • Shorter (or no) blackout on shutter actuation

And I'm not even thinking too hard about it!
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