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03-10-2009, 08:15 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by whatever7 Quote
Only for half of them, the other half brought into it because of the excellent prime lineup. The US Pentax users are particularly frugal because it was marketed that way.

If what you say is true, the price of the used FA* lenses should go below the Nikon and Canon counterparts. Instead, they have gone skyrocket.
Sorry your reasoning doesn't hold imo. The FA* lenses were never made in large enough numbers as compared to similar Nikon and Canon models and were introduced at a time when Pentax was struggling with a succession of forgettable AF film cameras that did not capture the market's interest in a big way.

Apart from being discontinued rather prematurely imo, the FA* lenses still command a premium because there aren't enough out there and given the larger user base today as the result of the success of the K100D and K10D, prices will naturally remain high even on the second-hand market. A similar analogy can be made with a lens like the excellent Voightlander 125mm f/2.5 Apo-Lanthar SL where prices have exceeded what it was originally selling for as a result of being discontinued.

I do agree with kenyee about his description of the typical Pentax user, except I'd replace frugal with CHEAP. At a risk of typecasting, many who buy Pentax DSLRs are either those who I would classify as "legacy users" who have a amassed Pentax film cameras over the years and are unwilling to jettison for another brand partly for cost considerations and partly because of an unwillingness or fear of change. The other category are those looking for the best bang for the buck and are unwilling to spend too much beyond budget.

The fact that there still remains a hesitancy for many to upgrade to the excellent K20D at current prices is indicative of the lack of propensity to spend on Pentax as a system. I'll give credit to Hoya as they probably know the average Pentax user just won't spend as much as perhaps someone using Canon, Nikon or Sony.


Last edited by creampuff; 03-10-2009 at 08:21 AM. Reason: spelling
03-10-2009, 08:18 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Amazon.com: Canon EOS 5D Mark II 21.1MP Full Frame CMOS Digital SLR Camera (Body Only): Camera & Photo

I know prices fluctuate, but $2699 is pretty good looking price if I was in the market for a new 5Dmk2 from Amazon.

Jason
Yeah, they are quite nice. I debated on one for a while, but think a used 1Ds2 is still the best FF deal on the market (obviously, since I own one ). Yeah, you lose video, some high ISO performance, and "only" get 16.6MP, but you gain incredible autofocus and build, and weather sealing. You can get them around $2100-2200 with some luck, and about the only thing that can happen to them is the shutter going out which is around $300 still making it cheaper than a 5D Mk II were that the case.

Anyway, I digress...

edit: if you just want cheap FF for landscapes, do check out the Kodak DCS 14/n if you are brave. Wouldn't go past ISO 80 most days, but it's 14MP full frame and no AA filter so has the potential for some wicked output when in the right hands.

Last edited by pingflood; 03-10-2009 at 08:24 AM.
03-10-2009, 08:22 AM   #18
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To the OP,

As a consumer, I bought Pentax because it offered bang for buck. Good quality for my money, thats how they got me in the door, but I knew what I wanted eventually yet hoped to stay with a company having this philosophy. I read the speculation fervently for a year, and like Samsungian, I felt let down and eventually went somewhere else to have my needs met, its natural. Brand philosophy is a good indicator of intent, but a brand is not loyal to you. It just does what it needs to survive, like you should.

I read a lot of opinion in this section - some of it very impassioned - about what Pentax needs. Really, like any major competitor, it needs a complete product line, but since it can't afford that, it gets creative working under its limitations. It must and does tread careful and cautiously to market so as not to get trampled under the foot of Canikon (or even Sony now) and pressure even comes from the compact side now too - possibly even Samsung itself with its NX. Pentax will do something. It will be cost effective, available when the technology is affordable enough to meet its bang for buck ratio. This pace may appeal to many, but its not for everyone.

If you are well satisfied with your kit and wonder for nothing, one could ask why even wander this hall of rumours at all? Pentax might have what you seek someday, and when they do it will be a good value ratio. Yet, if you hope for something that seems ever more unlikely and this disappoints you - go look at what is out there already that does what you want and know one way or the other, they're just cameras after all. The only right answer is that you are the consumer, the market is there to meet your demands. Get whatever it is that that suits you.
03-10-2009, 08:31 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by StephenG Quote
Bill - your post kind of contradicts itself.

you start by saying that any pentax FF will be too expensive for peope to buy...

then you say the sales of K20d will drop off as people will be buying the FF...

I would imagine, in my opinion, that a fair number of people bought the K20d, not because it was cheap, but because it was the best pentax has to offer..
if they offered a FF even at $1,700 - $2,000 I would buy it on pre-order..
If Pentax had a FF offering at $1700 - $2000, they would sell a lot - even folks shooting APS-C in other mounts would consider getting a FF Pentax at 2/3 to 1/2 the price of the lowest price FF out there...

Problem is that it would probably come in at $2600 - $3400, not 1700-2000, making it a brainer (vs. no-brainer )


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03-10-2009, 08:45 AM   #20
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If Pentax release a FF body in the near future, what about all of us who spend money on DA lenses and not on some cheap fleabay lenses from the 70's?
It's easier for all of you who want FF to change to another brand, like Canon, Nikon or Sony.
A lot more Pentax users will jump ship if Hoya/Pentax decide to make FF and starts to neglect the APS-C system and DA lenses.
I would sell my Pentax gear that I have spent over 4000USD's on and use my money on Sigma lenses for my Sigma SD-14 dSLR, if that would happend.
03-10-2009, 09:07 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Sorry your reasoning doesn't hold imo. The FA* lenses were never made in large enough numbers as compared to similar Nikon and Canon models and were introduced at a time when Pentax was struggling with a succession of forgettable AF film cameras that did not capture the market's interest in a big way.

Apart from being discontinued rather prematurely imo, the FA* lenses still command a premium because there aren't enough out there and given the larger user base today as the result of the success of the K100D and K10D.

I do agree with kenyee about his description of the typical Pentax user, except I'd replace frugal with CHEAP. Many who buy Pentax DSLRs are those who I would classify as "legacy users" who have a amassed Pentax film cameras over the years and are unwilling to jettison for another brand partly for cost considerations and partly because of an unwillingness or fear of change.

The fact that there still remains a hesitancy for many to upgrade to the excellent K20D at current prices is indicative of the lack of propensity to spend on Pentax as a system. I'll give credit to Hoya as they probably know the average Pentax user just won't spend as much as perhaps someone using Canon, Nikon or Sony.
I dont think all Pentax users are "cheap" I would rather say many of them are "careful".

The "enthusiast" market that Pentax has traditionally supported with its SLR range has ranged from $500 to $1000 per body. This segment includes newcomers but also serious photographic hobbyists who are not all mega rich - teachers, engineers, civil servants, small business owners or IT guys or even retirees. These folk are educated, intelligent but careful buyers who research the market for what will supply their needs and invest over time - but its their passion and they will keep spending even during a recession.

I do agree that a sizeable number of people who say they want an FF camera would, if they could actually afford one, have got one already. To remain loyal to a brand that does not provide what you want is a bit silly. You can always sell your existing kit. A few indeed have moved on and I wish them well. Some have even kept their K20D's. Some now have about 6 cameras which must make holidays a bit of a chore
03-10-2009, 09:23 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
I dont think all Pentax users are "cheap" I would rather say many of them are "careful"..
I agree totaly, and I am a careful Yorkshireman!

I would love a FF but am willing to wait as Pentax will produce one in time. If I need to go FF for commercial reasons, should that ever happen, I would have to reasses that position of course but for the moment my K10D, K20D and IR *istD are more than enough for me.

Pentax has always given me solid, well made, well featured and very competitivly priced products that stack up well against more expensive kit and I hope that will continue far into the future.
03-10-2009, 09:50 AM   #23
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Announcements of some sort ...

QuoteOriginally posted by whatever7 Quote
Since Pentax just semi-announced the 645D, the chance of us seeing a FF body in the next two years is next to zero.
Should that be semi-re-pre-announced, or maybe re-pre-semi-announced? I can't seem to get that right. And I'm in a tech strategy position with a very high tolerance for ambiguity.

The lucky part is that I don't have the interest or budget for the 645 and that gives me time to worry about fast focus/low noise/high ISO on a K10D replacement. Fortunately, there is no real info there so I'm free to dream away .....

03-10-2009, 10:58 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
description of the typical Pentax user, except I'd replace frugal with CHEAP
LOL. I did say I put it mildly. I think I'm a member of this crowd as well or I would have bought that 250-600/5.6 that was in the sale forum because I've always wanted a real birding/sports bazooka

But I agree w/ Steve as well...if you want FF badly, you could easily have gotten it by now. Used Canon 5D's are cheap ($1K or so), even for a cheap..errr...frugal Pentaxian
I honestly can't see needing it myself unless I do paid weddings (for high iso), but that's how I see my needs...

p.s., ditto on the FA* lenses...they're unfortunately a rarity, so even w/ the 1% of Pentaxians who aren't frugal, they're in high demand. For the FA*28-70, I suspect the Sigma 24-70 HSM will put a dent in demand if what I've seen of the samples on other systems is correct and if Sigma lowers the price to $600.
03-10-2009, 11:09 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
...
The "enthusiast" market that Pentax has traditionally supported with its SLR range has ranged from $500 to $1000 per body. This segment includes newcomers but also serious photographic hobbyists who are not all mega rich - teachers, engineers, civil servants, small business owners or IT guys or even retirees. These folk are educated, intelligent but careful buyers who research the market for what will supply their needs and invest over time - but its their passion and they will keep spending even during a recession.
...
Yes I acknowledge Pentax meeting the enthusiast or hobbyist segment, but unfortunately so does every other brand. The difference is if one were to go with a brand like Canon, Nikon and now Sony, there is a clear upgrade path in so far as camera bodies/features go should one wish or need pro specs. This has been Pentax's traditional achilles heel as none of the current DSLRs, even the phenomenal K20D can be classified as being a professional grade camera (superlative operability, uncompromising performance and versatility). I recently used the Nikon D3 and it just about walked all over the K20D in all but a few areas.

I can't say about photographers where you are but over here in Singapore, serious hobbyists I know who fall under those occupations you mention have no qualms to move up to the best APS-C or cheapest FF models currently available. Even among many serious Pentax users, the budget conscious included, many have upgraded to the K20D, which is more the norm at our monthly Pentax gatherings. This is obviously unscientific but an anecdotal indication that there is a progressive and ongoing demand for cameras with better features and better performance.

The absence so far of a top end flagship model is a liability for Pentax imo as it stifles the aspirations of those who do want a camera with a pro-grade feature set (fast AF, high fps, larger sensor, etc.). The numerous posts discussing FF is just an indication of this latent desire. In short it makes it hard for Pentax to retain it's serious enthusiast user base much less prevent them from "jumping ship" to another brand.

In my view Pentax will unveil a FF model if not sooner then later as the market dictates. However I think it will not prematurely leak or disclose such info as in the past because previous announcements and disclosures like the Lens Roadmap has backfired negatively for them in the larger scheme of things.
03-10-2009, 11:54 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
The difference is if one were to go with a brand like Canon, Nikon and now Sony, there is a clear upgrade path in so far as camera bodies/features go should one wish or need pro specs. This has been Pentax's traditional achilles heel as none of the current DSLRs, even the phenomenal K20D can be

The absence so far of a top end flagship model is a liability for Pentax imo as it stifles the aspirations of those who do want a camera with a pro-grade feature set (fast AF, high fps, larger sensor, etc.). The numerous posts discussing FF is just an indication of this latent desire. In short it makes it hard for Pentax to retain it's serious enthusiast user base much less prevent them from "jumping ship" to another brand.
Yes, I agree and also the flagship gives people a perception of how good a brand is, that applies to its lenses too, its easy to think a brand lens is really good because you've seen a pro using it on a flagship model on TV for example.
03-10-2009, 12:04 PM   #27
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I imagine you would have bought it for $3425...

Yes Sir I bet alot of You value hounds would have paid $3425 had the seller/owner offered it at this price instead of , what was it $6,000 to start and he got down to what $5,000? Heck I am not a fan of super telezooms cause I usually settle out shooting the long end but I think the buyer was:

Indeed A Lucky Buyer.

Wha'da'ya, think Ken, was $3425 a good deal, a really good deal, or still too much money~man. I bet a few of you all would have started a line of wannabe buyers at $3425 crying out loud that the first fellow locked it up 3 minutes after the seller first ran his pentaxforums ad.

Pentax SMC Fzoom 250-600mm F5.6ED - eBay (item 250376586561 end time Mar-01-09 10:32:02 PST)





QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
LOL. I did say I put it mildly. I think I'm a member of this crowd as well or I would have bought that 250-600/5.6 that was in the sale forum because I've always wanted a real birding/sports bazooka

But I agree w/ Steve as well...if you want FF badly, you could easily have gotten it by now. Used Canon 5D's are cheap ($1K or so), even for a cheap..errr...frugal Pentaxian
I honestly can't see needing it myself unless I do paid weddings (for high iso), but that's how I see my needs...

p.s., ditto on the FA* lenses...they're unfortunately a rarity, so even w/ the 1% of Pentaxians who aren't frugal, they're in high demand. For the FA*28-70, I suspect the Sigma 24-70 HSM will put a dent in demand if what I've seen of the samples on other systems is correct and if Sigma lowers the price to $600.

Last edited by Samsungian; 03-10-2009 at 12:15 PM. Reason: grammar
03-10-2009, 12:18 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Wha'da'ya, think Ken, was $3425 a good deal, a really good deal, or still too much money~man.
It was average for what they go for on fleabay from what I dug up..average selling price for a 250-600/5.6 star was $3500 the past few years.
The price was under $5k privately, BTW. I just couldn't get myself to go for it because 12 pounds is obviously a "drive to birding" instead of a hiking lens, and they'd never let me into the US Open (tennis) to take photos w/ that bazooka. It amounted to a lens I'd use only a few times a year versus a few basic lenses I still have to fill in my lineup (missing a 70-200/2.8, 24-70/2.8, 300/2.8, etc.) for the cost of it. And yes, I did think about getting it just to add a single * lens to my collection that I could admire, but the wife would kill me for using it and my back would kill me for using it

But like I said, I'm a typical frugal Pentaxian (parents immigrated here so they instilled frugality into me despite being born here) who waited for the K20D's price to drop within what I wanted to pay, just like you did
03-10-2009, 12:48 PM   #29
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Oh I missed it when he went below $5,000.

After I got the D700 I pretty much exhausted any desire to buy anything else so I missed it when he dropped price below $5,000. I haven't been paying much attention to any sales ads lately.

I agree about the weight. I owned a 13 pound lens once, took it to yellowstone twice along with the heavy duty legs, head and it was way too much hassle. Now I limit my self to 6 pound lenses & light legs & head. Big difference. Anyways Yellowstone is easy to get closer to critters so heavy glass is not necessary. My favorite shots are ones anticipating the dumb tourist within feet of a buffalo or some pointy antler creature. I still haven't gotten the tossed tourist shot, but I will ;^)

Yes K20D is lovely at about 1/2 of launch. No regrets. Wifey Loves it. I am pretty sure the 3 year warranty deal expired Feb 28th. So I got me a better deal as I got the 3 year bump inleiu of 1 yr. Kinda Makes up for paying full price for my first K Mount dslr which is pretty much worthless now compared to the $800 it ran me 3 years ago.

QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
It was average for what they go for on fleabay from what I dug up..average selling price for a 250-600/5.6 star was $3500 the past few years.
The price was under $5k privately, BTW. I just couldn't get myself to go for it because 12 pounds is obviously a "drive to birding" instead of a hiking lens, and they'd never let me into the US Open (tennis) to take photos w/ that bazooka. It amounted to a lens I'd use only a few times a year versus a few basic lenses I still have to fill in my lineup (missing a 70-200/2.8, 24-70/2.8, 300/2.8, etc.) for the cost of it. And yes, I did think about getting it just to add a single * lens to my collection that I could admire, but the wife would kill me for using it and my back would kill me for using it

But like I said, I'm a typical frugal Pentaxian (parents immigrated here so they instilled frugality into me despite being born here) who waited for the K20D's price to drop within what I wanted to pay, just like you did
03-10-2009, 02:07 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
After I got the D700 I pretty much exhausted any desire to buy anything else
That's pretty much the optimal performance/price point for the high end (not ultra high which includes PhaseOne medium format backs) right now, so it's no surprise
Glad to hear your wife is enjoying her K20D still. It's a great camera and I don't foresee an upgrade itch for a while...
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