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03-13-2009, 10:12 AM   #16
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If Samsung makes an adapter that would enable K mount lenses to be used it would be a very good move on their part. Introducing a new camera with a new mount in the current state of the worldwide economy would be a very big gamble but having the capability to use the huge quantity of K mount lenses available and maybe M42 with a screwthread adapter installed into it would make me seriously consider purchasing it.

A very compact camera with an aps/c sensor with interchangable lenses and the capability to use use my current lenses if I want to would be an instant selling point as they will only have a few lenses to start out and I am NOT interested in buying into another camera system right now.

Of course this is all speculation right now anyway as all they have is a mock up model and a whole lot of hype. When the real thing comes out we will know. I would not even consider buying one with a " we are working on a K mount adapter and will be out soon" promise. I also want to see it in stores and hold it in my hands before I buy one.

03-13-2009, 10:22 AM   #17
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I will believe it when I see at lease aperture control in the adapter.
03-13-2009, 07:06 PM   #18
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Thanks for hinting to the interview. It delivers some new info. All in all, I think, the picture is clear enough to carry us into the 2nd half of the year

My personal verdict about success vs. failure of NX (or mFT for what it is worth) is this: Will the electronic viewfinder (EVF) be good enough?

Theoretically, an EVF which is a bright 30Hz 6 MPixel OLED could outperform an optical VF making a hybrid camera conquer the market. But what is considered a good EVF today (like G1's) looks like total crap to users of optical VF.

So, for me, EVF quality is far more decisive than any philosophical questions about mount features or sensor size.
03-13-2009, 07:13 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlacouture Quote
Well, I can't see the reason why having an adaptor with an built-in motor cannot be done...
Afterall, this mount will have power coupling.

OK, you'll have to convert the PK lenses specific AF information to NX equivalent, but the adaptor can take care of this...
That probably depends on how thick they can make an adapter (for the motor to fit in) without turning it into a teleconverter of sorts. Until we see the final specs, we can only guess at what that adapter will be like.

My cynical guess is that they'll put out a basic adapter to simply fit K-mount lenses, no AF motor inside, with an outside chance that they'll have electrical contacts for aperture control. If they wanna sell their own system lenses, which is really where the money is with interchangeable-lens cameras, they would leave AF-enabled adapters off the market.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Thanks for hinting to the interview. It delivers some new info. All in all, I think, the picture is clear enough to carry us into the 2nd half of the year

My personal verdict about success vs. failure of NX (or mFT for what it is worth) is this: Will the electronic viewfinder (EVF) be good enough?

Theoretically, an EVF which is a bright 30Hz 6 MPixel OLED could outperform an optical VF making a hybrid camera conquer the market. But what is considered a good EVF today (like G1's) looks like total crap to users of optical VF.

So, for me, EVF quality is far more decisive than any philosophical questions about mount features or sensor size.
Well, Samsung is a safe bet to do a good EVF, as electronics is their mastery.

What I want to see are the lenses, since it's still a toss-up as to who will make them and how good they will be, and how complete of a system Samsung can make out of it in the short term.

Samsung would probably price their product more fairly than Panasonic, which might get more people interested.

03-13-2009, 07:55 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
That probably depends on how thick they can make an adapter (for the motor to fit in)
[...]
Well, Samsung is a safe bet to do a good EVF, as electronics is their mastery.
Really no reason to speculate.

The flange-back distance for µFT is 20 mm.
The flange-back distance for NX is 22.75 mm (*).
The flange-back distance for KAF is 45.5 mm.

(*) Samsung said "Our flange-back distance is slightly longer than µFT." So, I added 14%. Which makes it half the K distance which we would call µK

This leaves 23mm (22.75 mm) for the adapter. For comparison: my Tamron 1.4x rear converter is 18mm, my Pentax 1.7x AF rear converter is 26 mm.

So, an NX-K adapter would almost look like a 1.6x rear converter.


Of course, there is a simple way (although not too simple to be patentable in the US ...) to fit an AF motor into this space: just add a ring-type USM motor (around the mount's hole) and a little screw-drive gearbox. Not the cheapest way. So, if there is only one type of adapter, it will lack this feature and rely on SDM-AF.

./.

Samsung could do a better EVF, but a high resolution OLED could make the camera too expensive. If I had designed the camera, I would have tried to offer an exchangeable EVF ("LX" ), so an outstanding one could be purchased as an option. This could have done w/o adding in size. An EVF just needs a couple of pins.

I just found this:
http://www.oled-display.net/microoled-and-cea-leti-design-the-most-efficient...y-in-the-world
http://www.microoled.net/market/viewfinder-for-camera
A useful EVF would have to be even better than this which seems to be current state-of-the-art. They seem to lack a factor of 4. So, I think that by 2011, EVFs will match optical VF and the era of DSLRs will start to cease.

Last edited by falconeye; 03-13-2009 at 08:23 PM.
03-13-2009, 08:48 PM   #21
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If I am a strategist with Samsung, I will encourage the development of a AF converter/adaptor for the NX system. By keeping the registration distance the same and using high quality optical elements, similar to the Pentax 1.7x AF converter, both MF and screw-driven lens can AF on the NX system. Since the registration distance is unchanged, all MF and screw-driven lens can be used at the native focal lengths.

Why would Samsung what to do this? So that they do not alienate their existing Samsung DSLR user base who are commited the K-mount and show their commitment to them. Users generally feel betrayed by mount changes.

This kind of AF converter/adaptor is only made possible because of the removal of the mirror box and a slimmer body. This also open option for Samsung to develop AF converter/adaptor for other major mounts, such as Canon-to-NX, Nikon-to-NX, and Sony-to-NX. Now why would C, N, and S users want to try using a EVL system? Because EVL open doors to potentially:
1) Slimmer body design
2) Fast FPS - higher than any DSLR currently on the market. How does 15 FPS sound?
3) (stolen from another member in the other forum) Time bracketing - which allow capturing moments split second "after" it happened via EVL

Would anyone want to try their lens on this body? I do not see why not. Talk about breaking the mold, I wonder if Samsung is innovative enough?

Last edited by leeak; 03-13-2009 at 08:57 PM.
03-14-2009, 11:28 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by leeak Quote
If I am a strategist with Samsung, I will encourage the development of a AF converter/adaptor for the NX system. By keeping the registration distance the same and using high quality optical elements, similar to the Pentax 1.7x AF converter, both MF and screw-driven lens can AF on the NX system. Since the registration distance is unchanged, all MF and screw-driven lens can be used at the native focal lengths.

Why would Samsung what to do this? So that they do not alienate their existing Samsung DSLR user base who are commited the K-mount and show their commitment to them. Users generally feel betrayed by mount changes.

This kind of AF converter/adaptor is only made possible because of the removal of the mirror box and a slimmer body. This also open option for Samsung to develop AF converter/adaptor for other major mounts, such as Canon-to-NX, Nikon-to-NX, and Sony-to-NX. Now why would C, N, and S users want to try using a EVL system? Because EVL open doors to potentially:
1) Slimmer body design
2) Fast FPS - higher than any DSLR currently on the market. How does 15 FPS sound?
3) (stolen from another member in the other forum) Time bracketing - which allow capturing moments split second "after" it happened via EVL

Would anyone want to try their lens on this body? I do not see why not. Talk about breaking the mold, I wonder if Samsung is innovative enough?
I really do think they want to break free from Pentax with the NX, and outside of their home country, I doubt there are that many people who went with Samsung instead of Pentax, much less bought those Schneider lenses, so there's not much of a solid user base to preserve. Even those who did get Samsung DSLRs probably match them with Pentax optics anyway, so aside from sensor sales to Pentax, Samsung may not be earning much from the partnership.

I still see an adapter for K-mount lenses for the NX system in the future, but I guess it will not be able to retain AF, and Samsung might only make small runs of those adapters just for general goodwill. Some Chinese manufacturer will make the rest of the adapters for the NX, including orphaned lens systems. I'd love to be proven wrong on this one when official specs and announcements come out, though.

Their comments about keeping an open mind to anyone who wants to license the mount is certainly interesting, but I doubt there would be other takers save for thw usual third-party lens manufacturers and maybe Pentax.

If m4/3 and/or NX succeeds in getting a huge market share, I'm guessing Canon, Nikon, and Sony would rather make their own versions of a similar concept rather than rely on Samsung for the mount and the body. Canon and Nikon in particular, can still get good profits on those cameras simply by sheer number of their installed consumer base, so they'd rather have that than have another company get the profits.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Really no reason to speculate.

The flange-back distance for µFT is 20 mm.
The flange-back distance for NX is 22.75 mm (*).
The flange-back distance for KAF is 45.5 mm.

(*) Samsung said "Our flange-back distance is slightly longer than µFT." So, I added 14%. Which makes it half the K distance which we would call µK

This leaves 23mm (22.75 mm) for the adapter. For comparison: my Tamron 1.4x rear converter is 18mm, my Pentax 1.7x AF rear converter is 26 mm.

So, an NX-K adapter would almost look like a 1.6x rear converter.


Of course, there is a simple way (although not too simple to be patentable in the US ...) to fit an AF motor into this space: just add a ring-type USM motor (around the mount's hole) and a little screw-drive gearbox. Not the cheapest way. So, if there is only one type of adapter, it will lack this feature and rely on SDM-AF.

./.

Samsung could do a better EVF, but a high resolution OLED could make the camera too expensive. If I had designed the camera, I would have tried to offer an exchangeable EVF ("LX" ), so an outstanding one could be purchased as an option. This could have done w/o adding in size. An EVF just needs a couple of pins.

I just found this:
MICROOLED and CEA-LETI design the most efficient silicon-based OLED microdisplay in the world
Viewfinder for Digital Camera
A useful EVF would have to be even better than this which seems to be current state-of-the-art. They seem to lack a factor of 4. So, I think that by 2011, EVFs will match optical VF and the era of DSLRs will start to cease.
Not that far-off, then, for EVFs that can closely approximate optical viewfinders. Thanks for the info.

I have a question. Are there no other way to make ring motors aside from how Canon makes them? I'm too lazy to read Canon's patents regarding that, but I'm assuming only Canon has patents to ring motors.
03-14-2009, 01:08 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
I'm assuming only Canon has patents to ring motors.
Sigma has ring motor lenses, incl. their new 50mm F1,4 EX DG HSM for Pentax. So, why not Samsung? Or Pentax, for what it is worth...

03-14-2009, 01:17 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by leeak Quote
If I am a strategist with Samsung, I will encourage the development of a AF converter/adaptor for the NX system. By keeping the registration distance the same and using high quality optical elements, similar to the Pentax 1.7x AF converter, both MF and screw-driven lens can AF on the NX system. Since the registration distance is unchanged, all MF and screw-driven lens can be used at the native focal lengths.

Why would Samsung what to do this? So that they do not alienate their existing Samsung DSLR user base who are commited the K-mount and show their commitment to them. Users generally feel betrayed by mount changes.

This kind of AF converter/adaptor is only made possible because of the removal of the mirror box and a slimmer body. This also open option for Samsung to develop AF converter/adaptor for other major mounts, such as Canon-to-NX, Nikon-to-NX, and Sony-to-NX. Now why would C, N, and S users want to try using a EVL system? Because EVL open doors to potentially:
1) Slimmer body design
2) Fast FPS - higher than any DSLR currently on the market. How does 15 FPS sound?
3) (stolen from another member in the other forum) Time bracketing - which allow capturing moments split second "after" it happened via EVL

Would anyone want to try their lens on this body? I do not see why not. Talk about breaking the mold, I wonder if Samsung is innovative enough?
I agree. If one wants to grab market share, come out with new concepts rather than incremental improvements.

The other thing that K mount support with AF does, is it brings new customers into the Samsung arena who can then carry their K mount lenses into their full size DSLRs. In the past they didn't have credibility, but with more of a system, they start having that crediblity and fan base.

Plus, Samsung could go out and fix some of the Pentax problems like PTTL that might lead the user base into their camp, or some percentage of it. If i could pop my DA lenses on NX, much more likely to buy it, myself that is.
03-14-2009, 01:57 PM   #25
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I'm very interested in Samsung's NX development, and here's why: I want a nice small camera with APS-C sized sensor performance and depth of field control. And I want to be able to attach nice small fast prime lenses to make a very compact and low-profile kit. I know Panasonic is working on a fast 25mm for their micro 4/3rds. I can't imagine Samsung wouldn't follow suit.

So here's my deal. Why would I want a camera with an inferior viewfinder, and probably inferior performance compared to full-size dSLRs (because size would limit the computers, etc.)? Well I just explained that in my first paragraph. So if I'm giving up a little in performance so I can have a more compact size, why the hell would I want to attach an adapter to my camera that would add more size? For myself, I'd like to have a compact EVF camera with compact lenses to match, and that means buying new lenses.
03-14-2009, 04:42 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by brucestrange Quote
I'm very interested in Samsung's NX development, and here's why: I want a nice small camera with APS-C sized sensor performance and depth of field control. And I want to be able to attach nice small fast prime lenses to make a very compact and low-profile kit. I know Panasonic is working on a fast 25mm for their micro 4/3rds. I can't imagine Samsung wouldn't follow suit.

So here's my deal. Why would I want a camera with an inferior viewfinder, and probably inferior performance compared to full-size dSLRs (because size would limit the computers, etc.)? Well I just explained that in my first paragraph. So if I'm giving up a little in performance so I can have a more compact size, why the hell would I want to attach an adapter to my camera that would add more size? For myself, I'd like to have a compact EVF camera with compact lenses to match, and that means buying new lenses.
Because a mirror-less body can use SLR lense from any mount? Take a look at Olympus's lineup and you know you are never going to get more than 2-3 pancake fixed lenses.
03-15-2009, 04:45 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Sigma has ring motor lenses, incl. their new 50mm F1,4 EX DG HSM for Pentax. So, why not Samsung? Or Pentax, for what it is worth...
Thanks for the clarification.

Sigma probably reverse-engineered Canon's design and made workarounds of their own so as not to intrude on Canon's patents. I guess others can do that, too.

QuoteOriginally posted by whatever7 Quote
Because a mirror-less body can use SLR lense from any mount? Take a look at Olympus's lineup and you know you are never going to get more than 2-3 pancake fixed lenses.
For some reason, Olympus only lately realized the niche they should be targeting with the 4/3 system (see the E-620), so it's more because of the company's decision-making and not the system/mount that restricted availability of pancake primes.

I'm guessing that if Pentax was the one who made the 4/3 standard, they would have made a whole bunch of primes for it already, from wide to short telephoto.

Though yes, there are a lot of people who are interested in the G1 to use it as a "digital back" of sorts for orphaned lens mounts.

Last edited by vinzer; 03-15-2009 at 04:51 AM.
03-15-2009, 02:19 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Sigma has ring motor lenses, incl. their new 50mm F1,4 EX DG HSM for Pentax. So, why not Samsung? Or Pentax, for what it is worth...
Yes that's nothing "patented". I haven't a clue as to why Pentax did the cheaper sonic type motor except........ it was cheaper...
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/technical/usmlens_technology.do#container


http://www.maeno.mech.keio.ac.jp/paper/IWOUMA2005_maeno.pdf
I guess I'm not "everybody"........
As everybody knows, the ultrasonic motor was invented
by Sashida in 1980. Twenty five years have passed since
then. Now, the ultrasonic motors are produced by
numbers of makers in Japan including Canon, Fukoku,
Asmo, SII, Canon Precision, Shinsei, Kyocera, Olympus
and Mitsuba. The amount of sales in Japan has been
about four billion yen per year throughout year 2001 to
2005 according to the survey by Yano research institute(1).
Approximately 40 percent is for cameras and 35 percent
is for cars. Other mass-produced products are printers,
copy machines, medical equipments including MRIs,
manufacturing machines, audio equipments, and so on.
Share of companies are as follows: Canon: 33 percent,
Fukoku: 26 percent, Asmo: 21 percent, SII: 8 percent,
Canon precision: 5 percent, Shinsei: 3 percent(1). Growth
ratio of sales is not extremely large. However, market
size is gradually becoming larger. We can conclude that
the ultrasonic motors are not new actuators any more,
however, they have potential to be much influential
actuators.

Last edited by jeffkrol; 03-15-2009 at 02:31 PM.
03-15-2009, 03:20 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
As everybody knows, the ultrasonic motor was invented by Sashida in 1980.
I doubt this.

E.g., P.I. from my home country sold ultrasonic motors (at that time called "piezoelectric motors" in German language) more than 30 years ago, i.e., before 1980...
PI: Leader in Nanopositioning | About PI | 30 Years Experience | Micropositioning and Nanopositioning, NanoAutomation® Leading-Edge Solutions for Science and Industry

EDIT:
I am just learning... The "piezoelectric walking motor" is a special kind of piezoelectric motor and now commonly referred to as ultrasonic motor. So indeed, Sashida may be the inventor of this specific type of motor. But still I find only English-language sources claiming so

Anyway, there are many sources for ultrasonic motors now and it should be no problem to fetch one from the market to stick into an adaptor...

Last edited by falconeye; 03-15-2009 at 04:03 PM.
03-15-2009, 04:33 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I doubt this.

E.g., P.I. from my home country sold ultrasonic motors (at that time called "piezoelectric motors" in German language) more than 30 years ago, i.e., before 1980...
PI: Leader in Nanopositioning | About PI | 30 Years Experience | Micropositioning and Nanopositioning, NanoAutomation® Leading-Edge Solutions for Science and Industry

EDIT:
I am just learning... The "piezoelectric walking motor" is a special kind of piezoelectric motor and now commonly referred to as ultrasonic motor. So indeed, Sashida may be the inventor of this specific type of motor. But still I find only English-language sources claiming so

Anyway, there are many sources for ultrasonic motors now and it should be no problem to fetch one from the market to stick into an adaptor...
Here's a book to read............
An Introduction to Ultrasonic Motors - Google Book Search
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