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03-16-2009, 04:57 PM   #46
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Ron, I understand what you're saying and I agree, you are right, but this reminds me of the time when my son Nathan, who was in high school at the time, told me about a friend of his. Nathan was wanting me to buy him a car, I was just recently divorced and he was living with me. He said "so and so's Dad just bought him a Camaro!" I said, "Nathan, look out in the driveway and take another look at the piece of crap I'm driving, I can't afford to buy ME a Camaro."

03-16-2009, 05:26 PM   #47
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Wheatfield, you are also right, of course. If I had as much money as I wish I had I'd might spend that much money on the FA* 200 macro, maybe.
It kinda seems to me that there's the guys who own one and want to defend the price vs the guys who wish they had one but can't afford it who wonder why someone would spend that much:-).
I'm not a good investor, that's why I'm an average guy who doesn't own a Rolls Royce.....or a FA* 200 macro. I'm just a hard working fool who's willing to sacrifice to have a few nice things. And I appreciate what I have.
03-16-2009, 05:30 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Boggs Quote
As to the money issue regarding how much a lens costs...this is a very inexpensive hobby. Your neighbors own a motor home that cost tens of thousands of dollars, another neighbor spends three weeks a year traveling to exotic vacation destinations, your uncle owns a cabin or second home in another state, your neice is a wine snob (or was before the crash)...

Hobbies cost money and photography is really a very cheap one as hobbies go. So what if a lens costs $5000? The neighbor kid gets a new dirt bike every year for about that sum. At least that lens will be useful for decades. Your friend from work follows the Broadway plays...figure that hobby at a couple thousand annually by the time you add in cab fare and fine dining to round out the evening. Several thousand if there is a night or two of lodging tied in.

Once you get your "stable" of lenses for what feels like lots of upfront cost, this photo thing gets cheaper each year. I hardly have to spend anything annually anymore--a new digi body every few years, an accessory item here or there. Your neighbor's grandpa spent more to go drag racing in the '70's than you need to spend on photography today. And we can shut down the LBA at any time we choose and just go enjoy shooting pictures. Odds are, most of us reading this forum have enough gear to have a ball for the rest of our lives. Your broadway play following friend has to keep spending to keep enjoying that hobby...

Any time you feel that your hobby is too costly, just look out your window at the neighbors with boats, motorhomes or fancy "hobby" cars in the driveway. We photo enthusiasts are nowhere near as deeply "in" as any of those folks. And the joy of our images will last our entire lives!
One of my co workers does tractor pulls at the county fairs in the northeast during august and september every year. What he spent on turbochargers last year alone would buy all of these high priced rare lenses we are dreaming about and more. The funny thing is he thinks I'm nuts to spend 800 bucks on cameras and lenses that I will use for a few years. He blew 3 turbos on 1 weekend last fall at appox. 1500 a pop.
03-16-2009, 08:39 PM   #49
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Hey, my hood is a dirt road in the National Forest. There isn't a nearby neighbor with even as much as middle income and since I'm in the wholesale boat business I haven't had income for over a year. But I still firmly believe that anyone can own the things they want. I bought all my lenses on credit many years ago which many would say is stupid. Guess what? They are all paid off now, and have been for years--thank goodness! Most people who buy boats, or motor homes or cabins do so on credit. If you are confident you can pay for your hobby, credit isn't a sin. The reason I have a bunch of FA* lenses and a 67II system is because I prioritized it in my life. It's that simple. I chose not to buy a motor home or a cabin or a dirt bike. I chose lenses. My job encourages regional travel which gives me photo opportunities--Northwest Territories, Alaska, Utah, Pacific Coast, Redwoods etc. I live halfway between Yellowstone and Glacier National Parks and Banff and Jasper are within a day's drive as well. You don't have to be rich or even well off to order your life to support the hobby you love.

As a wrestling coach working with a group of young national champions, we live by the belief that you either get the job done and win or you don't and you lose--no excuses! Well, I live my life that way too. I either get the financial job handled so as to live the way I want or I don't--no excuses! I've spent most of my life below middle income with a ten year spell of mild financial success. Owning kick arse lenses is something anyone can do if that person really wants to--no excuses.

03-16-2009, 08:42 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adrian Owerko Quote
In my view the build quality of DA*'s are better than FA*'s (silver paint scratch magnet)... Plus with DA*'s if something breaks a lot easy to get fixed as they are in current production.. Just my 2 cents
The problem is that Pentax doesn't make a DA* 200mm macro. The just got around to making a p-ttl macro flash. The only "new" inventory macro in that focal length is the Sigma 180mm macro. I would like to see a DA 200 macro.
03-16-2009, 08:59 PM   #51
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Sorry I can't shut up, but gosh Eaglerapids, I seem to recall that you have a very nice piece of glass or two yourself...DA*300 if I remember correctly. Well the FA*300/4.5 was my first * lens, so things may get better in your kit over the years. It took me almost 15 years to end up with the glass I have now. And hey, if you had purchased the right Camaro for your son it would be worth lots more now...

Just toying with you. My 14 year old wants badly to keep up with the "Jones'" which isn't happening in the current economy with me selling pleasure products for a living. But he sure does good work with my lenses--a "rich kid" pleasure he surely doesn't appreciate.

And I don't mean to put anyone off. These messages of mine are more cheerleading to help others justify diving in deep for photo fun! Plus, if anyone can use my comments to convince a spouse...well just helping my photo friends!
03-16-2009, 10:36 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Boggs Quote
As to the money issue regarding how much a lens costs...this is a very inexpensive hobby. Your neighbors own a motor home that cost tens of thousands of dollars, another neighbor spends three weeks a year traveling to exotic vacation destinations, your uncle owns a cabin or second home in another state, your neice is a wine snob (or was before the crash)...

Hobbies cost money and photography is really a very cheap one as hobbies go. So what if a lens costs $5000? The neighbor kid gets a new dirt bike every year for about that sum. At least that lens will be useful for decades. Your friend from work follows the Broadway plays...figure that hobby at a couple thousand annually by the time you add in cab fare and fine dining to round out the evening. Several thousand if there is a night or two of lodging tied in.

Once you get your "stable" of lenses for what feels like lots of upfront cost, this photo thing gets cheaper each year. I hardly have to spend anything annually anymore--a new digi body every few years, an accessory item here or there. Your neighbor's grandpa spent more to go drag racing in the '70's than you need to spend on photography today. And we can shut down the LBA at any time we choose and just go enjoy shooting pictures. Odds are, most of us reading this forum have enough gear to have a ball for the rest of our lives. Your broadway play following friend has to keep spending to keep enjoying that hobby...

Any time you feel that your hobby is too costly, just look out your window at the neighbors with boats, motorhomes or fancy "hobby" cars in the driveway. We photo enthusiasts are nowhere near as deeply "in" as any of those folks. And the joy of our images will last our entire lives!
You obviously enjoy a life standard far above what 95% of the world population can ever dream of.

Good for you but really, photography is not a cheap hobby.

Not when a single lens costs several average worker's months of salary (in"rich" countries, in less lucky ones, it is more YEARS of income).

You could say it's a rich's man cheap hobby...

Let's enjoy our immense wealth, but let's also keep some perspective.
03-17-2009, 03:39 AM   #53
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Ron. I wasn't debating, simply pointing at some basic facts of life.

Let us leave this topic and move on to photography


Last edited by Fototim; 03-17-2009 at 04:09 AM. Reason: Added a smilie
03-17-2009, 06:32 AM   #54
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It's easy to forget that this is really the key point to Ron's message; building a good glass collection doesn't happen overnight nor should it happen overnight for your non-pro photographer not shooting for a living.

If you actually average out the cost of the lenses over a 15 year period, it comes out to at most a couple of hundred dollars per year for a solid, modest collection.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Boggs Quote
It took me almost 15 years to end up with the glass I have now.
03-17-2009, 06:39 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
You obviously enjoy a life standard far above what 95% of the world population can ever dream of.

Good for you but really, photography is not a cheap hobby.

Not when a single lens costs several average worker's months of salary (in"rich" countries, in less lucky ones, it is more YEARS of income).

You could say it's a rich's man cheap hobby...

Let's enjoy our immense wealth, but let's also keep some perspective.
The perspective is that hobbies are an invention of societies that have generated enough relative wealth to allow lifestyles with leisure time to pursue them.
Within this context, photography can be a very cheap hobby, or it can move up the scale to undeniably very expensive.
03-17-2009, 07:14 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
The perspective is that hobbies are an invention of societies that have generated enough relative wealth to allow lifestyles with leisure time to pursue them.
The same can be said of pets. We have relatives from the poor regions of China that thought we were nuts to take care of a cat so much instead of eating it...ditto the neighbors' dogs
I agree, photography is one of the less expensive hobbies when amortized over time unless you're the sort who upgrades like crazy (Canikon users :-)...
03-17-2009, 09:10 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
The same can be said of pets. We have relatives from the poor regions of China that thought we were nuts to take care of a cat so much instead of eating it...ditto the neighbors' dogs
I agree, photography is one of the less expensive hobbies when amortized over time unless you're the sort who upgrades like crazy (Canikon users :-)...
I think some of the more affluent members of this forum can and will upgrade the same way you think about "Canikon" users, only that there's not much cameras to upgrade to. Some have even gone dual-system because of the lack of that upgrade path from the K20D.
03-17-2009, 09:33 PM   #58
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Yes Ron, I have the DA* 300/4 and the reason I bought it was I felt the F* and FA* 300/4's were overpriced, especially after the DA* came out. I would have bought a used F series 300/4.5 if I could have found one in the $750 range but I waited till the DA* came out instead.
You know, another reason I wouldn't buy any of these rare FA* lenses at this time is because who knows how long these prices can keep going up? I'm not buying with the intention of selling later at a profit although I would hope my FA Limiteds (for example) at least hold their value within 10% to 20%. I thought I got a pretty good deal on my 31Ltd at the time only to find Prodigital selling them for about $100 less after 10 months, but that's ok, they didn't even have any in stock the last time I checked. I got a real good deal on the 43Ltd and 77Ltd because I jumped on them when the going was good. I paid $770 for the 31Ltd shipped. If something were to happen in my life where I had to sell it for some reason and I got $600 for it I would be happy as a clam. I would consider it an honor to have owned such a lens for a period of time for $170. I sure wouldn't expect to get $2000 for it! For a short period of time here the Vivitar Series 1 105/2.5 Macro sold for $500. I paid $200 for mine but nobody saw me jump in and ask $500 for mine. I didn't even think about selling it. Mainly because I would never consider paying $500 for it.
This, I suppose, is why I'm not rich. I don't have time to sit around figuring out how to make money for money's sake. I want to spend my time out in the woods fishing and taking pictures or playing my guitar, watching the eagles fly, seeing a moose, seeking a sunset or a foggy morning. Pulling over before the sun rises on top of Moon Pass and marveling at the miracle of God's work. Thanking Him for these things that make me happy. Floating the Smith River or the Lower Salmon for four or five days where money is meaningless.
In many ways I'm an idealist. If only 1000 Fa* 200/4 Macros were made and those guys needed some money and they sold their 200/4 for a $1000 (what it's worth, after all it's used:-)) and the guys who bought it,and for whatever reason needed to sell it, and they sold it for the $1000 they paid for it, think of the people who would then be able to have a chance to use such a lens, to enjoy it. Instead of each guy only selling it when he can make a 100% profit....and the lens ending up in some rich fat cat's trophy room where the only action it sees is when the maid dusts it off once a week. I'm not so naive as to think this is ever going to happen but it would be cool if this were the way of the world.
If only I were King.

:-)
03-18-2009, 10:27 AM   #59
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I'll vote for you! Oh wait, you don't get to vote for a king. Maybe better to start a cult and then we can all just join!

See you on the river! I'm the guy with the great big grin and the beat up truck--and a silver lens on my Pentax...
03-18-2009, 10:56 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Boggs Quote
Maybe better to start a cult and then we can all just join!
Umm . . . I think we're already there
See you on the river! I'm the guy with the great big grin and the beat up truck--and a silver lens on my Pentax...
Nothing silver (yet), but I have a short, fat one with a red ring on the front. I'm the one shooting bugs, pistils and stamens
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