[whatever7]

I think Pentax is full of s%*# when it comes to 35mm. You don't exactly have to be Nostradamus to see where the market is going at this point. It's only a matter of time before either Canon or Nikon release a 35mm digital in a plastic body for around $1500. If Nikon can sell D90 bodies for $890 then there is no reason they cant make a 35mm version for $1500 (or less). Once they do that where will that leave Pentax with the K20/30D? The IQ on the 35mm "D90" will surely blow away whatever Pentax can muster with an APS-C sensor. Plus (and more importantly to me) Pentax will have make a break through in view finder design to compete with larger 35mm view finders.

I think at this point its obvious that Pentax will have to make a 35mm camera and they know it. They simply don't want to scare people away from buying all these $300+ APS-C lenses they're currently producing in the mean time.

Pentax still have some time. Eventually the D300/50D/A700/(K20D) class will all go FF. But Canon won't be the first to do it, their APS lens can't use on the FF bodies. They may go for a 1.3X sensor though.

It won't be the Nikon D400, since its coming out in a couple monthes. And the D500 will come 2 years after D400. So even if the D500 is FF, Pentax will have a lot of time to undercut the current crop of FF pro bodies with a $1500-ish FF body.

But the problem is Pentax like to telegram their future release plan so much ahead of time (see 645D)in interviews we can safely assume that the FF plan is still a long way off. How many current K mount users who want FF will drift of off to other mounts is another question.

[nostatic]

I too got the full frame covered via Canon last year and then this year via Nikon. Pentax missed out on some big total sales from just me.

I'm sure somewhere in Japan a Hoya exec is about to commit hari kari based on this...

[Samsungian]

But the delays moving production lines to VietNam from Japan from 2002 to 2007used to constantly tick me off. I got happier once I added similar things pentax stopped making years ago for less brand new than used FA lenses cost today. Like 70-200mm 2.8 IS versus 80-200mm 2.8 FA.

I spent less on my multi brand dream kit than one 645D and kit lens will likely sell for new in 2010 or 2011 or...wasn't that due in 2005 or 2006 ??? Pent up desire over three years of scrounging ebay and one day I snapped after years of comparision shopping. Most people leave pentax for another brand. I'm glad I got K20D to drive my old K-A & FA mount lenses. BUT, theres no way I'll add any SDM lenses unless I get some crazy good pawn shop/craigslist buy. SDM is still too young for me. It took canon 6 or 7 years to get the 2nd generation USM right. Now they are in 3rd and 4th generation and I have no qualms buying usm eos glass new and assume it will work flawlessly as advertised.


I wonder how many people in this forum have spent $18,000 on brand new Pentax gear in a year or better yet as it matters to Hoya, specifically past 51 weeks since Hoya's Takeover?

I'm sure somewhere in Japan a Hoya exec is about to commit hari kari based on this...

[vinzer]

It is more obvious in the German original.

It says something like "A successful introduction of a new system depends on an appropriate lens lineup. One step after the other." and "In the past, when we tried to establish our digital SLRs, it wasn't helpful actually, to have an incomplete lens lineup and delivery shortage for some of the more popular lenses".

This sounds like "we are in the process to plan for FF". While in the past, they said that APS-C is the superior format for their market and no need to think about FF.

I looked it up:
*istD: 2003
DA 16-45/4 AL ED: 2003

In 2004, they additionally released the DA18-55, two DFA lenses and the DA40.

So, they launched with one lens and added one cheaper zoom (for *istDS) and three primes the year after.

Which now is considered to be inappropriate (and Pentax obviously already started to think about it...). So, they want more than a single lens to go with it.

So, what Gabriele Remmers really told us is this:

We are working on a FF lineup like this:
body, normal prime (easy) or normal zoom (like existing FA 24-90/3.5-4.5), plus f/2.8 pro zoom pair 24-70 + 70-200zoom (or equivalent, like existing FA*28-70/2.8 + FA*80-200/2.8) launch offer.

Should really be doable if Samsung delivers the sensor...

Oy, a lot got lost in the translation there.

Samsung is another big question mark for me, at least in terms of announcements and future plans. Aside from the NX system, I really can't tell from the different interviews they give out if they're still onboard with DSLR rebrands, if they're still developing an FF sensor, stuff like that.

But is shows that everybody, incl. B&H, could sell at this price. I.e., $2000 for FF Nikon and $1900 for FF Sony.

Side note: Why is B&H selling those for $3000? I have to scroll down the list of online stores with stock quite a bit to find one which sells the D700 in Germany for more than $2263 (€2000 incl. 19% VAT).

Are all prices in the US 1/3 higher than in EU right now?

$1900 for the A900? Wow. If I had to buy an FF DSLR right now (nowhere near needing one, though), it would be the A900.

I think Pentax is full of s%*# when it comes to 35mm. You don't exactly have to be Nostradamus to see where the market is going at this point. It's only a matter of time before either Canon or Nikon release a 35mm digital in a plastic body for around $1500. If Nikon can sell D90 bodies for $890 then there is no reason they cant make a 35mm version for $1500 (or less). Once they do that where will that leave Pentax with the K20/30D? The IQ on the 35mm "D90" will surely blow away whatever Pentax can muster with an APS-C sensor. Plus (and more importantly to me) Pentax will have make a break through in view finder design to compete with larger 35mm view finders.

I think at this point its obvious that Pentax will have to make a 35mm camera and they know it. They simply don't want to scare people away from buying all these $300+ APS-C lenses they're currently producing in the mean time.

I still think Pentax can squeeze out some more out of APS-C, provided they make the right body for it and market it properly. If they play the size and weight advantage (I won't get into the whole equivalence thing, suffice to say that a capable APS-C system can be made smaller and lighter than an FF set) in marketing, they can still carve a niche. They can out-spec 4/3 in a lot of things, including MP count and high ISO.

I would agree, though, that the first FF-equipped D90/Rebel XSi-level camera will garner a lot of interest from owners of any camera brand and first-time buyers, much like the original 300D.

[solar1]

I think you are correct

Exactly. This rep is clued out because, as already announced from Pentax Japan:

1. Pentax has NO PLANS for FF. Yes, none. Read that again and stop all the rumours. Nada. Zilch. Zero. It has nothing to do with lens availability, because if it did, Pentax would be in a great starting position.

2. Pentax ARE IN FACT releasing the MF digital, but only in Japan.

[falconeye]

I wonder how many people in this forum have spent $18,000 on brand new Pentax gear in a year

According to my little calculus, this accounts for 18% or nearly 1/5 of the net income from the white, or olive lot of K-ms. You are almost worth your own color! Which one do you choose?

[thibs]

I spent less on my multi brand dream kit than one 645D and kit lens will likely sell for new in 2010 or 2011 or...wasn't that due in 2005 or 2006 ???

We should be honest here, as true is the fact that Pentax was working on 645D (that was shown publicaly), the actual camera has *NEVER* been announced.

So how could it be due to whenever?

According to my little calculus, this accounts for 18% or nearly 1/5 of the net income from the white, or olive lot of K-ms. You are almost worth your own color! Which one do you choose?

Don't mistake Falconeye the numbers provided by our emeritus "Photo accountant" with money he actually spent (and more so on Pentax gear). This guy in all his rebates and best offers and so on doesn't understand some extremely basic things:

1) Not all markets are like the part of the US he's living in. In EU like you very well know Pentax is priced competitively (or should I say we EU citizens are sh..ted by C and N big time?);

2) He's story multiplied in 200 or so posts with what he bought, when and what a super deal he made towards his "dream setup" and stuff it's the best proof that NOT EVEN C OR N COULDN'T SATISFY ALL HIS NEEDS. AND YET THIS GUY EXPECTS THAT PENTAX MUST DO THAT AND AT A LOWER PRICE.

3) To put a 18K price tag on the 645D only to justify its "failure" it's ... well I don't have an uncensored word for it right now.

Radu

[creampuff]

I'd actually like to see a photo of all the gear our emeritus "Photo accountant" has accumulated and faithfully repeated ad nauseum.
Plenty of banal talk but no actual photographic proof of anything... actual gear nor images taken with such gear.

The point is it matters little how one arrive at current gear choices, but whether such gear can help deliver the photos. If one can't shoot for nuts with a basic camera, don't expect to do better with something with more bells and whistles... Unfortunately this sounds all too typical among gear junkies.

[Samsungian]

Heres a clip from Mike Johnston's The Online Photographer when the Pentax 645D was announced yet again:


"Sometimes I suspect that one reason companies announce things so far in advance of their actual release is because it means they get to show the product at more than one photo show. I noticed (with a certain bemusement) that Pentax is announcing its medium-format digital camera yet again. This thing has been doing duty as an upcoming product at photo shows for so many years now that I wonder if it qualifies as some sort of Orwellian perma-vaporware, as unending as the distant wars in 1984 (or Afghanistan). I'll probably have snow-white hair and not be able to remember the way to my rocker and I'll still be reading about the Pentax medium-format digital camera that's just about to be released. Generally, it seems a condition of the New World: seasons flash past with a cloud of promised products always hovering tantalizingly just out of view. Imagine the money our strapped car companies could save if they could keep showing the same new models and the same concept cars at show after show, year after year. It would sure beat the challenge of having to come up with something new for every exhibition."



The Online Photographer: And Let's Not Forget the DP2!

We should be honest here, as true is the fact that Pentax was working on 645D (that was shown publicaly), the actual camera has *NEVER* been announced.

So how could it be due to whenever?

I'd actually like to see a photo of all the gear our emeritus "Photo accountant" has accumulated and faithfully repeated ad nauseum.
Plenty of banal talk but no actual photographic proof of anything... actual gear nor images taken with such gear.

The point is it matters little how one arrive at current gear choices, but whether such gear can help deliver the photos. If one can't shoot for nuts with a basic camera, don't expect to do better with something with more bells and whistles... Unfortunately this sounds all too typical among gear junkies.

Creampuff,

I don't care about his "artistry" and I don't feel he's obliged to show me or others anything. But I object to this kind of cheap talk from a guy who's really more of a bargain hunter than a photo enthusiast (and I mean regardless of brands). He never showed me an ounce of knowledge about the modern Pentax system, I doubt he ever held a modern DA* or DA Ltd in his hand yet he feel justified to ask from Pentax to compete with new gear to his 5D bought *obviously* at a bargain price at 3 years after launch. All in all this is a forum of photo aficionados not a "3 for 10 dollars" one were people like him rejoice more in the bargain itself than in the joy of using stuff they love.

Regards,
Radu

[kenyee]

The nikon 24-70mm 2.8 costs $800 more than I bought my new 24-70mm f2.8 L last year
Nikon makes no 300mm f4 VR and my IS 300mm f4 IS eos costs less than nikon no VR available new.
My 70-200mm 2.8 IS ran me $300 less than nikon VR and it unlike the nikon does not vignette on full frame and unlike nikon I can fully use canon extention tubes with full metadata full autofocus and image stabilization for macro.

Good reasons, but the 24-70L is an old design that gets spanked pretty hard by the Nikon variant and even by Sigma's new 24-70HSM. The Canon 70-200/2.8 is also spanked pretty badly by Nikon's (if you look at sharpness instead of vignetting). The Canon 70-200/4 is much sharper even if you stop the 2.8 down IIRC. The Nikon gear is much more expensive w/ the big price increase now so your decision probably is better for your wallet now too

[pingflood]

So is the 645D the new Duke Nukem Forever or Moller Skycar?

[Samsungian]

All the Quality Control issues are easily found on the internets with Sigma glass mixed in with some happy owners of same:

I bought a 4.5mm f2.8 to use in D700 crop mode last month.

WHAT a HORRIBLE lens!!!

Its my first & last Sigma hands on experience I'll bother with. Luckily B&H took it back granting me with full refund and they paid round trip shipping also to rid me of the late 2007 design sigma.

Thats great Sigma works for you. As a manufacturer of bootleg mount lenses they are dead to me. Have you read of Javier's 4 recent bad experiences with Sigma? They charge him now for "IN" warranty repairs. And this for a guy who bought their AF K Mount 500mm f4 brand new... among other pricey sigmas all new. Me, I like to learn from others mistakes as its easier on my wallet.

I have no regrets adding Canon 70-200mm 2.8 IS. Maybe I was lucky as I have yet to receive a less than stellar image qualty made in japan lens from them. Digital is great as in a few minutes at my favorite local park I can tell if a lens is great or mediocre or crap. I shot about 70 images with the sigma and from close up to infinity was bad, bad, bad..........

Whereas my two nikon made lenses: 14-24mm 2.8 Nikon and 70-300mm VR are tack sharp. I had low expectations on the Nikon Thailand made VR but price made me give it a go. Its exceptional actually ;^) What sold me is all the nikon pro shooter websites that boldly list it as part of their gear. For what the Sigma sells 4.5mm f2.8 for I could have bought two 70-300 VRs . Well thats before Nikon popped the price up. What A Deal it WAS ;^)

The Canon 24-70mm 2.8L has a checkered history. I don't know if canon made slip stream improvements to it over the years but mine has a "UW1012" Date stamp inside mount so its freshly made from Oct 2008 and its exceptional too. Nice thing about Canon over both Nikon and Pentax is Canon stamps a manufacture date code on all the lenses they make. THIS has been a canon thing since Novemeber 1970 to date code all their glass when they launched FD System.

As far as Nikon's 24-70mm 2.8 being the best, I'd guess thats true. I've never read of any single complaint concerning it. But I'm happy I spent $800 less for a Canon version that I'm pleased with. How Cool is that? $800 savings, same focal length covered, I'm Happy. What more can I ask for?

Likely the same scenario with Sigma, you get a good copy or two and Sigma is Great. Me? I'm one for one, sigma sucks and they don't get a second chance due to all the complaints I've read over the years.

Good reasons, but the 24-70L is an old design that gets spanked pretty hard by the Nikon variant and even by Sigma's new 24-70HSM. The Canon 70-200/2.8 is also spanked pretty badly by Nikon's (if you look at sharpness instead of vignetting). The Canon 70-200/4 is much sharper even if you stop the 2.8 down IIRC. The Nikon gear is much more expensive w/ the big price increase now so your decision probably is better for your wallet now too

[pingflood]

I've played the Sigma roulette 4 times now and keep winning. Had a 70-300 and 30/1.4 on the K20D that were great. Now I have a 15-30 (which is the biggest freakin' bargain on the planet at what they are going for used!) and the Bigma and they are good too. The only one bought new was the 70-300 though, and the used ones I made sure to prod the seller a bit about the performance...