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04-05-2009, 11:53 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Maybe you missed one minor fact in between those 2 statements: Hoya taking over Pentax! It's like expecting that a new government to follow exactly the same policies as those of the previous one.

On a side note like I said dozens of times before I guess the reason many here and on other fora want a Pentax FF camera is precisely the reason why Hoya doesn't want to make one: the usage of legacy glass from the M42 Taks up to latest DFAs and FA LTDs. What is profitable to you I am afraid is not for Hoya meaning to invest big R&D money for a very limited number of bodies and even fewer new lenses sold. For me at least it makes a lot more sense for them to:

Resolve as fast as possible the problems that cheapen the brand such as AF perceived as slow in some circumstances, lower fps, poor reliability of SDM lenses, old image processor in need of a change for better responsiveness and noise control

and after that

Restructure the lens line-up within a global strategy for the future of the brand with ranges like:

- Small/premium - DA Limiteds;
- Weather sealed consumer lenses for the K300D with motors and contrast AF ready;
- Professional DA* II lenses mechanically modified to accept ring motors and without shaft inside marketed in paralel with current ones for customers to chose either better speed or compatibility;
- Redone of the best lenses from the recent past with modern mechanics, motors and latest in design/glass/digital coatings following the FA*200 reincarnation in the DA* 200. Likely candidates are the 3 FA LTDs, FA* 200/4 Macro, FA* 85/1.4, FA* 135/1.8, FA* 24/2, a modern version of a 50/1.2, maybe some long tele glass from the past improved).

Even if I am close to the truth all those will take many years and my personal feeling is that Pentax will become more and more a premium brand with prices to match.

Radu
Pentax becoming a premium DSLR brand... mmmmh ... why not?

Pentax primes are already among the most expensive on the market and with a few bodies to match, it could become really... expensive!!

Great! That way we could at last erase one of the biggest difference between APS-C and FF: price! ... Only not in the way I would have liked it...

04-05-2009, 01:28 PM   #17
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20 Million Pentax lenses vs 25 years of Nikon AF, 21 years of Eos Glass...

Last week I bought a 1985 vintage nikon lens that works fine on both my D700 and my 5D with simple adapter. Its a 24 year old lens. I can use any Ai mount from 1977, any AiS lens from 1981 thru today lens on D700. Nikon still makes 35mm 1.4, 50mm 1.2. Both still in production since 1981 in AiS mount. I can adapt any Nikon F lens from 1959 thru Non Ai 1976 to Eos Mount. I don't own any m42 glass, but last month I bought a simple non optical pentax screw mount lens to eos adapter for $8 delivered. One of these days I'll get a m42 pentax lense from 1964-1977 to see whats up on my full frame 5D.

I think Pentax' edge is the shake reduction body. I am real happy with my K20D, but I doubt I'll ever buy SDM lenses. Also, I dislike the deletion of aperture selector ring at lensmounts too. Two strikes against newer Pentax lenses for me then add in the hefty price increase & thats 3 strikes against.

Pentax is still in first generation of SDM motors whereas Nikon and Canon are several generations ahead of them. I read of a two lens failure recently from one long time pentaxian and (((surprise))) Pentax USA had NONE instock for lens motor unit repairs. That tells me these SDM are failing at a greater rate than they can stock replacement motor units. What do you all think? See thread detailing two f2.8 SDM lens failures on one major trip:

Missive to Ned Bunnell - Photo.net Pentax Forum


QuoteOriginally posted by octavmandru Quote
But is so true that by not lining up with current marketing policies of other brand (see the logo "make use of more then 20 million lenses Pentax made along the years"), they are loosing lots of money.
Other makers sell bodies that force you to buy new lenses. And let's be true, lenses are the big fish to catch, in the eyes of a maker. That's where the big money are.
Pentax on the other hand is selling a few bodies, a couple of lenses, and so many users make use of granpa's glass.

Which is cool, but not very efficient for Pentax.
04-05-2009, 01:44 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Well, Ken, first of all hello to you, it's been a while since we exchanged views about Pentax. The way I see the Pentax future is linked to their expressed wish for 10% market share in a few years. Well, if we are at it Sony wanted 20% for sometime now and we all know how this end up for them. But, still 10% (compared to 3.5-4.5% of the 2008) doesn't qualify them as a "niche player" IMO. Maybe a "medium player with both standard and niche products" will be a more accurate definition. All I am saying is that I see them increasing big time the price and hopefully quality and performance on the "niche products" both now and in the future. And unfortunately these are the ones most of us here care about.

Radu
So Pentax will become the first company in the history of modern marketing to sell both a premium line along with a low cost product in any product group? Sorry, can't happen. They would have to either have the personality of Dr Jekyll or have two separate staffs. They would also have to add at least two more bodies to the line and we already know they can't handle that.

But just for fun let's say they can hold on to 3.5-4.5% of the market with the "Value added" line they now produce. That means this new premium line would need to get a minimum of 5.5% of the market to reach their goal. In light of the new pressure Panny, Oly, and Samsung will bring to the market with the new smaller cameras you think that is possible?

If you really believe Pentax is going the premium route you also have to accept they will become a 4-7% niche player.
04-05-2009, 02:02 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
So Pentax will become the first company in the history of modern marketing to sell both a premium line along with a low cost product in any product group? Sorry, can't happen. They would have to either have the personality of Dr Jekyll or have two separate staffs. They would also have to add at least two more bodies to the line and we already know they can't handle that..
I believe that Pentax must be understood as a Japanese company. The Japanese have dominating the camera industry to such an extent that they have forgotten the Japanese-type high-end niche product (one exception is the Pentax Limited lenses). I believe Pentax high-end (volume cheap stuff will continue) will be about the typical Japanese "pride of ownership" thing as opposed to the feature laden tools of Nikon and Canon. What a company like Luxman is doing is perhaps an audio equivalent to what Pentax might be doing for DSLR's and lenses; or vice versa.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????? - LUXMAN

04-05-2009, 02:42 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
So Pentax will become the first company in the history of modern marketing to sell both a premium line along with a low cost product in any product group? Sorry, can't happen. They would have to either have the personality of Dr Jekyll or have two separate staffs. They would also have to add at least two more bodies to the line and we already know they can't handle that.

But just for fun let's say they can hold on to 3.5-4.5% of the market with the "Value added" line they now produce. That means this new premium line would need to get a minimum of 5.5% of the market to reach their goal. In light of the new pressure Panny, Oly, and Samsung will bring to the market with the new smaller cameras you think that is possible?

If you really believe Pentax is going the premium route you also have to accept they will become a 4-7% niche player.
I never said a "medium player with both standard and niche products" in any product group like you obviously understood. I said it in the way that for example 645D, Limited and star glass are niche products and K-m is a standard product.
I never claimed 10% market share for them ... they said it as a goal but if this percentage will be attained there is no way to know what the proportion between "cheap stuff and expensive stuff" will be. Neither in numbers nor in revenue IMO. For me the close future of Pentax lies in the K300D and if they play their cards right they could have a bestseller in the (by far) largest DSLR segment. I said it before, the K200D although a very nice camera was poorly thought out as market positioning. Even K-m has some inexplicable and even petty price reduction features. If they can bring a very desirable camera for the "average Joe" without major flaws and with a decent price they could have a major hit. Remember the market success of K10D? Why can't they repeat that?

I didn't understood why you said: "They would also have to add at least two more bodies to the line and we already know they can't handle that." I get the feeling that early 2010 will mean for Pentax a 3 dslr line + 645D as a prestige camera. How many bodies do you want?

Their market share means little to me if the company lives and flourishes. A 4 or 7% could be better than a 10% in some circumstances. I think Sony knows why intimately.

Radu
04-05-2009, 11:49 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by ryan s Quote
Traitor!!

Nah...it's cool...you're on a couple other forums I frequent as well Unlike a couple Pentax trolls who've already posted in this thread, I think there shouldn't be a brand bias. I prefer Pentax but wouldn't turn down a 5D (or even a 40D) at the right price.


Hey there (and excuse me for circumventing all that's gone back and forth in the mean time ).

Yeah, well, call me a traitor, but I won't be buying any L lenses soon The biggest reason I got the 5D was for a trio of Zuikos that I picked up the other day, so I'll go for a while till I even consider getting a Canon lens for this :-DDD When I can afford the TS-E 17mm f4L, then we'll talk.

Regarding brand loyaly, my current view of Pentax is how I saw Apple Computer back in the late 90s, early 2000s. I was "loyal" to the Mac, but there were some things that Windows was better at (or was required) so I didn't bitch, I just got me a Windows 2000 laptop. Since then, I had a lowly Windows machine running side by side all my Macs––OK, quite a bit lower near the floor and out of sight, but you know what I mean. I only got rid of all PCs when Parallels running on my Intel Mac became good enough to satisfy my Windows needs.

I think Pentax is at that stage, where Apple was 10 years ago; great legacy, fantastic hardware and peripherals, great user-base, but suffering with marketshare, mindshare, and to a degree, lack of a clear vision. Apple has shown an incredible, absolutely astonishing comeback in the 10 years since.

Can Pentax pull off something similar? We'll see.

In the mean time, I choose to spend more time shooting what I want, the way I want, using the right tools to do it (my currentl lineup--> K20D, 5D, Pentacon Six TL, and Kodak Retina IIa :-) rather than bitching about the stuff my gear can't do.

Cheers :-)
04-06-2009, 03:33 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Last week I bought a 1985 vintage nikon lens that works fine on both my D700 and my 5D with simple adapter. Its a 24 year old lens. I can use any Ai mount from 1977, any AiS lens from 1981 thru today lens on D700. Nikon still makes 35mm 1.4, 50mm 1.2. Both still in production since 1981 in AiS mount. I can adapt any Nikon F lens from 1959 thru Non Ai 1976 to Eos Mount. I don't own any m42 glass, but last month I bought a simple non optical pentax screw mount lens to eos adapter for $8 delivered. One of these days I'll get a m42 pentax lense from 1964-1977 to see whats up on my full frame 5D.

I think Pentax' edge is the shake reduction body. I am real happy with my K20D, but I doubt I'll ever buy SDM lenses. Also, I dislike the deletion of aperture selector ring at lensmounts too. Two strikes against newer Pentax lenses for me then add in the hefty price increase & thats 3 strikes against.

Pentax is still in first generation of SDM motors whereas Nikon and Canon are several generations ahead of them. I read of a two lens failure recently from one long time pentaxian and (((surprise))) Pentax USA had NONE instock for lens motor unit repairs. That tells me these SDM are failing at a greater rate than they can stock replacement motor units. What do you all think? See thread detailing two f2.8 SDM lens failures on one major trip:

Missive to Ned Bunnell - Photo.net Pentax Forum
Did you check my signature?

I mean, no other brand is making such a big point about the heritage.
I guess they what they really are trying to say is they have the background and knowledge to build a good system.
I love the old lenses. I love them because it's fine glass with history, and they give me better understanding of picture making. I learned to take my time before I shoot 'cause of the old lenses.
My point is: No other maker has a button dedicated basically to the old glass.

I have split feelings: on one side I like their philosophy, on the other hand I pray they sell enough to keep them going for years to come.
04-06-2009, 04:12 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by octavmandru Quote
Did you check my signature?

I mean, no other brand is making such a big point about the heritage.
I guess they what they really are trying to say is they have the background and knowledge to build a good system.
I love the old lenses. I love them because it's fine glass with history, and they give me better understanding of picture making. I learned to take my time before I shoot 'cause of the old lenses.
My point is: No other maker has a button dedicated basically to the old glass.

I have split feelings: on one side I like their philosophy, on the other hand I pray they sell enough to keep them going for years to come.
you are very right. But still we need to face the fact that people prefer buy sigma, tamron and tokina lenses insteed of pentax. There you got the biggest problem.

For every 16-50 sigma 2,8 lens they sell, pentax lose money on every DA* 16-50. Becasue they are in the same league in term of focal lengh.

04-06-2009, 05:10 AM   #24
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We've got a problem...
04-06-2009, 05:39 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by losecontrol Quote
For every 16-50 sigma 2,8 lens they sell, pentax lose money on every DA* 16-50. Becasue they are in the same league in term of focal lengh.
Not quite. Sigma is 18-50 Pentax is 16-50.
04-06-2009, 06:07 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matjazz Quote
Not quite. Sigma is 18-50 Pentax is 16-50.
Sigma 17-50, f1:2,8.... A nice lens, I say.
In fact my avatar was shot with one
04-06-2009, 06:32 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by octavmandru Quote
Did you check my signature?

I mean, no other brand is making such a big point about the heritage.
I guess they what they really are trying to say is they have the background and knowledge to build a good system.
I love the old lenses. I love them because it's fine glass with history, and they give me better understanding of picture making. I learned to take my time before I shoot 'cause of the old lenses.
My point is: No other maker has a button dedicated basically to the old glass.

I have split feelings: on one side I like their philosophy, on the other hand I pray they sell enough to keep them going for years to come.
Canon can't make a big deal about their heritage, since it involves screwing an entire user base and quite frankly, Nikon doesn't have much to brag about any more either.
All this talk anout adapting lenses from one camera brand to another is all well and good, but it isn't much more than a curiosity from a usability POV.
Nikon's backwards compatability essentially ends at the switch to AI, which also happens to be the first time they introduced compatability loss to their users.
04-06-2009, 07:08 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Canon can't make a big deal about their heritage, since it involves screwing an entire user base and quite frankly, Nikon doesn't have much to brag about any more either.
All this talk anout adapting lenses from one camera brand to another is all well and good, but it isn't much more than a curiosity from a usability POV.
Nikon's backwards compatability essentially ends at the switch to AI, which also happens to be the first time they introduced compatability loss to their users.
Quite frankly, they borrow our oldies more often.
But I dunno about the new ones. Still cheaper then C&N glass
04-06-2009, 07:13 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by RawheaD Quote
.........................Oh wait, what's this? Why, it's my used 5D I just picked up today ;-)
Somebody get a rope!
04-06-2009, 09:23 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by octavmandru Quote
Sigma 17-50, f1:2,8.... A nice lens, I say.
In fact my avatar was shot with one
Sigma is either 18-50/2.8 or 17-70/2.8-4.
Nothing constant 2.8 touching 16mm.
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