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05-06-2009, 07:57 AM   #1891
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
One thing that I hope is fixed on the K-7 is the duplication of the AF button on the grip, otherwise, the new layout (including the ISO button, usefully placed for M and P modes and the new green button location) looks really neat.
Don't know whether that would be required. It seems to me the AF button sits lower and as such it could be easier to reach it with the grip attached? Buttons on top of the camera must be replicated on the grip surely.

Wim

05-06-2009, 08:20 AM   #1892
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So what about the rest of the buttons.

Appears to be one button in the upper right corner, guessing thats the exp lock.

Then there are 3 buttons around the navi button. Assume one of these is the live view since it was said there is such a button. That leaves 2 extra buttons...
05-06-2009, 08:25 AM   #1893
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Of course not. The best and fastest way is eyeball tracking ...
Oh yes, I remember this from the 90s on a Canon A2e EOS camera. It's never as far as I know been used on a digital camera. I wonder if Canon holds a patent on it. I also wonder if you're hinting something...
05-06-2009, 08:45 AM   #1894
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
Don't know whether that would be required. It seems to me the AF button sits lower and as such it could be easier to reach it with the grip attached? Buttons on top of the camera must be replicated on the grip surely.

Wim
Well, I would rather not have to stretch to the other side of the camera and keep the same layout in both orientations: look at the Sony cameras, they are exemplary for this particular thing IMO.

05-06-2009, 08:47 AM   #1895
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QuoteOriginally posted by and Quote
So what about the rest of the buttons.

Appears to be one button in the upper right corner, guessing thats the exp lock.

Then there are 3 buttons around the navi button. Assume one of these is the live view since it was said there is such a button. That leaves 2 extra buttons...

Sorry, naive question: what's the navi button?

Edit: is it the OK button? In which case the 4 selectable options should be flash, drive, WB and LV.
05-06-2009, 10:04 AM   #1896
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Sorry, naive question: what's the navi button?

Edit: is it the OK button? In which case the 4 selectable options should be flash, drive, WB and LV.
should have been navi buttons, referring to the 4 way selector and the ok button.
05-06-2009, 10:35 AM   #1897
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
"often" = not always. A tilt/swivel LCD can also be useful for those who don't want the LCD at all or when you want to protect it while in the bag.

For me I would give up fast fps (not often useful especially when AF-C is not able to follow) for an articulated LCD because my back would be relieved and I would look less funny when trying to get some angles. Here is an example:

I did it with my K-m without looking at the viewfinder, the camera was about 2 inches above the ground. With Liveview and an articulated LCD I could easily have composed the shot.

This is a sweet picture, and a good point. I think we’ll see Liveview and an articulated LCD in the close future. From what I’ve understood, some implementations have been less than ideal though.


QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
For you. For me tilt & swivel LCD is not important at all.
Yes, we all have different wishes, so there is bound to be some disappointment.

One thing I would like, is that I hope the K7 will have a built-in mechanical viewfinder shutter, so possible to block out light entering that way. I always loose those small ones that come with the camera.






QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Eye opener. As much as I'd like a D700, the size, price and lack of SR are deal breakers. But the size in particular is just too much IMHO. The K20D+grip is already at the limit of weight and size. Just like cars, I prefer them small and efficients. That's why I think the K-7 is good news.
The K7 sounds like good news to me as well, as sometimes I would like a DSLR around the size of the K-m. But still I would prefer sealing, and high-end functionality.


On a discussion at T.O.P. regarding size of Nikon D3, it was stated :

"Oh, on the shoot to carry ratio—just one hint: do not carry the D3 round your neck!! Yes, it's like a chainsaw if you do. The camera was designed to be carried in your hand(s), not round your neck. I usually carry the D3 as a walk-around camera in my hands and I never feel it. Trust me, it is so well designed for your hands that it feels like part of yourself. When you are not shooting, carry the camera in a backpack, not in a shoulder bag."


And Mike replied :
“I think Edwin's on to something here: how you carry a camera has a lot to do with your perception of the size and weight it should be. The D3 with a large zoom is at an uncomfortable transition point—just about too big for a neckstrap. It really does demand another kind of carrying strategy, like Edwin says. It's true that relatively more weight is more comfortable in a backpack, and I know from experience that carrying a camera in the hand all the time is in some ways more comfortable than having it dangling from a strap digging into your neck: I carried a heavy medium-format camera around D.C. for six months and never even owned a strap for it; it was always in one hand. Never bothered me. Of course it does tend to limit what else you can carry, and what else you do with your hands. But it's a good way to make a relatively heavy camera tolerable.
There's probably a "break" or transition point between that method of carrying and carrying with straps. My habit is to carry a camera on a strap hung from one shoulder, which militates for a certain size camera as being most comfortable and handy (and a certain size of lens, too—big lenses make cameras the wrong shape for carrying the camera from one shoulder, unless the lens is long enough to make the whole shebang hang downwards).”


The Online Photographer: Carrying Style



QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Exactly what I thought...

But hey, if people really want to think that a FF is necessarily a Godzilla machine... why bother?

FF is not inherently bigger than APS-C but Canon and Nikon cameras are generally bigger than Pentax ones.

Just do the same comparison pic with a D300 and a K20...

That's exactly why I would love to see a Pentax FF: it wouldn't look like a D700/D3 anymore than a K7 is going to look like a D300.
I did not mean any negative notion against FF, just noting that it often brings some extra bulk and weight. Here is a picture returning the advantage to Canon :





But you're right. The day we see FF from Pentax, they might have a "better" form factor.

The K20 has a great feel, particularly with grip. But there are sometimes where I can really use the compactness that Pentax offers. So the K7 and then with a pancake, sounds really good.





QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
If you're going to put a size comparo photo up and specifically mention lenses then you should probably find a pic with similar lenses. You have a 24-120mm on one and a 35mm prime on another. Mount the Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D on the D700 and it is much more manageable. And again, this is simply a difference in philosophy between Nikon and Pentax, it doesn't mean that FF cameras have to be as large as the the D700 (the Sony A900 is already smaller for example).

I don't find the A900 much smaller than the other FF cameras :



(And they all weigh close to 1 kg)

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Here is a diagram comparing the D700 to the APS-C D300:
Their APS-C camera is virtually the exact same size as their FF camera. I personally prefer larger cameras for every day shooting. Large cameras simply fit my hand better and feel nicer to me. I say who cares to metal vs composites vs carbon fiber vs wood debate. I don't care which material is the most effective/modern/renewable/economical. I just care which feels the best when I pick it up; and so far that has been magnesium bodied cameras to me. Pentax simply hasn't made a DSLR that feels as nice as either Oly E-3 or the Sony A900....hopefully the K7 will change that.

I think it's great that Pentax has chosen to make small cameras for people that prefer that, but so long as I'm going to have to carry a back pack anyway the size difference between the D700 and the K20D doesn't mean a thing to me.

Exactly when I'm carrying a backpack, like when mountaineering or hiking, is when I want a small, but high quality DSLR.


QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
So give me the one that fits my hand and feels more solid any day of the week. The K7 may fill a nice niche though. So far every single magnesium bodied DSLR has been D300/D700/A900 size. That leaves people with smaller hands out in the cold if they want Canon Rebel size and Canon 50D build quality and features. The K7 can fill that niche. I just hope they can make a view finder to compete.

The thing that makes both the D700 & A900 look large in photos (I still think they are perfectly manageable in person) is that they both have huge honking prisms on top. But to me that makes them so beautiful I couldn't care less what the rest of the camera looks like, because I know that means once I put my eye up to the view finder I'm going to see an engulfing view. And again, to reiterate, that is the single biggest advantage 35mm offers. It's not the IQ, the resolution, the high ISO, the dynamic range, none of that; it's the view finder. It makes composing photos an easier and more enjoyable experience. It's very hard to look through an APS-C view finder after only a short test of a full frame camera at your local store.
I follow you most of the way. Actually I really like the VF of the Nikon D300. Best crop VF, IMO. The Olympus E3 disappointed me here.

But the picture of D700 and K20, shows an important aspect to me. With a K-series DSLR equipped with a pancake, I can throw in a large pocket. This is simply not possible with a FF cam.
05-06-2009, 10:57 AM   #1898
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I haven't gone through the whole thread...

...but i've been checking since page 100 and don't think that I've seen this one yet.

Have it been posted before? Found it on pbase

Attached Images
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05-06-2009, 10:59 AM   #1899
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It's been posted, and it's just a *istD
05-06-2009, 11:02 AM   #1900
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ouh, sorry, my bad
05-06-2009, 11:32 AM   #1901
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QuoteOriginally posted by sezme Quote
Oh yes, I remember this from the 90s on a Canon A2e EOS camera. It's never as far as I know been used on a digital camera. I wonder if Canon holds a patent on it. I also wonder if you're hinting something...
I sure hope not. I never really played with that eyeball tracking they were bragging about, but I'm pretty sure it would annoy the heck out of me with the way I shoot. I spend half my time behind the viewfinder making sure various naughty bits aren't poking out, and if it refocussed on them every time that would be...awkward.
05-06-2009, 12:10 PM   #1902
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
“I think Edwin's on to something here: how you carry a camera has a lot to do with your perception of the size and weight it should be. "
Edwin/Mike nailed that one for sure. I absolutely despise neck straps. I find them worthless. I ordered one of these after it dawned on me that I always simply carry the camera in my hand whenever it wasn't in my back pack:




QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
But you're right. The day we see FF from Pentax, they might have a "better" form factor.
That's my hope as well. IMO Pentax does plastic better than anyone (well, the Olympus E-30 is up there too), so one of the reasons I bitch about FF so much is in hope that they would produce a FF camera in a K20D form factor for under $2k. I see no reason why they couldn't. The D700 is currently selling for $2350 from Amazon while the D300 sells for $1500 in a nearly identical form factor. So add $800 to the cost of the $800 K20D and sell a full frame DSLR for $1600. Sure, I'd rather have magnesium, but if I could get a plastic FF K20D for $1600 then I'd lose all interest in $2700 cameras.


QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
I don't find the A900 much smaller than the other FF cameras.
I think the A900 is actually larger than the 5D Mark I, but smaller than the D700. Either way, anyone that has an anti-FF opinion is doing themselves a disservice not to go test the A900 out at a camera shop. It might change your opinion real quick; it did mine. I used to be an anti-FF guy too. I've got one friend that refuses to even pick up a D700 because he's afraid it will make him hate his D200.


QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
I follow you most of the way. Actually I really like the VF of the Nikon D300. Best crop VF, IMO. The Olympus E3 disappointed me here.
I agree with you on that one. I'm not sure why, but the D300 (and D200) VF seems really warm when looking through it. The Canon 50D looks really cold and dim if you do a side-by-side comparison. I think Oly should be commended for what they did with the E-3 VF. It is in a different league from the rest of the 4/3's cameras. I actually consider most 4/3's VF's to be damn near unusable. If not unusable then un-enjoyable for sure. The E-520's VF is so bad that it actually takes the fun out of using an OVF. So they did a heck of a job on the E-3's prism in comparison. I'm hoping the K7's will be of a similar design. If it is a 1.15x or something in that ballpark it might be just large enough to make me forget all about FF.


QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
But the picture of D700 and K20, shows an important aspect to me. With a K-series DSLR equipped with a pancake, I can throw in a large pocket. This is simply not possible with a FF cam.
You must like wearing cargo pants

As I said in another post, I don't consider any SLR whether it be FF or APS-C to be portable. I plan on getting Olympus's m4/3's system for that.
05-06-2009, 01:14 PM   #1903
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Here is how I carry my cameras and they are pretty easy to hold even with the battery grip, flash and a heavy lens. I also use the strap around my elbow for extra stability when using slower shutter speeds. When not in use the strap is over my shoulder, not around my neck.
05-06-2009, 01:23 PM   #1904
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Hey, look at the post count.

Seven...
05-06-2009, 01:29 PM   #1905
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mister Guy Quote
I sure hope not. I never really played with that eyeball tracking they were bragging about, but I'm pretty sure it would annoy the heck out of me with the way I shoot. I spend half my time behind the viewfinder making sure various naughty bits aren't poking out, and if it refocussed on them every time that would be...awkward.
LOL - I don't necessarily do that but I do check all of the image info at the bottom of the view finder on most shots. That would have to mess with the eye tracking focus.

Six...
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