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04-28-2009, 08:57 AM   #61
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Let's not "race" to conclusions

QuoteOriginally posted by joerg Quote
However, I look at Pentax and the K20 and think to myself it was the perfect body in its class, if only there were a class above it.
There is - 645D. How far above K20 do you need to be before you say "wow?"

I used to be into drag racing and the cheapest way to go faster was to move up to a big block motor with more cubic inches. However, the fastest street legal cars in town all had supercharged or nitros injected small blocks and killer suspension systems. There cars were far lighter and quicker than my big block Mopar. They also had a lot more engineering and refinement from bumper to bumper.

I think Pentax is taking the lighter small block approach. Let's see how the IQ stacks up against a full frame big block before we get too critical. Pentax may continue to eat dust or they may just shock us all and run circles around the heavier FF bodies.

And yes, I know that bringing the 645D into this argument is like suggesting you run a top fuel class machine in the pro stock category. The point is that Pentax appears to be showing a commitment to everyone from first shot amateurs to the highest of the high end pros. There may be a few gaps but I bet we will see those filled in as Pentax strengthens their position in the market.

04-28-2009, 09:24 AM   #62
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Guys, once again you are taking what I am saying out of context so you can make me out to be just a user crying about Pentax not including stuff. That is not what I was trying to do here, this was meant to be a discussion on the path Pentax is currently taking. I appreciate all those that have spoken up about the 645D playing into that path, and also to the few of you that seem to know a bit more than the rest of us about this mystery mid range body.

Technology has evolved the market quite a bit over the last ten years. At the dawn of the digital era it was unclear whether or not digital would ever be better than cheap 35mm film, today 35mm digital is delivering performance on par with medium format film. I think it is an interesting step for Pentax if they only consider MF to be pro grade, and it does indeed begin to elevate them to Leica status (kind of a scary place to be). If Pentax can pull this off then more power to them, but for the time being a lot of FF cameras are edging closer to MF quality, while APS-C edges closer to FF territory. I think companies like Canon and Nikon figured out that if you can produce MF quality in a smaller sensor that costs 1/10 the amount to produce and because of that you can sell 10x as many bodies then that is the way to go. I think if Pentax did movie mode right on this beast then they also have a very very good chance at shining in a very new market for Pro DSLR users. A lot of production houses considering these new DSLR's will spend absurd amounts of money on lenses, and they look for a full set, if Pentax can his those users we may find our old FA* glass in even higher demand than before.
04-28-2009, 10:13 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by joerg Quote
Guys, once again you are taking what I am saying out of context so you can make me out to be just a user crying about Pentax not including stuff. That is not what I was trying to do here, this was meant to be a discussion on the path Pentax is currently taking. I appreciate all those that have spoken up about the 645D playing into that path, and also to the few of you that seem to know a bit more than the rest of us about this mystery mid range body.

Technology has evolved the market quite a bit over the last ten years. At the dawn of the digital era it was unclear whether or not digital would ever be better than cheap 35mm film, today 35mm digital is delivering performance on par with medium format film. I think it is an interesting step for Pentax if they only consider MF to be pro grade, and it does indeed begin to elevate them to Leica status (kind of a scary place to be). If Pentax can pull this off then more power to them, but for the time being a lot of FF cameras are edging closer to MF quality, while APS-C edges closer to FF territory. I think companies like Canon and Nikon figured out that if you can produce MF quality in a smaller sensor that costs 1/10 the amount to produce and because of that you can sell 10x as many bodies then that is the way to go. I think if Pentax did movie mode right on this beast then they also have a very very good chance at shining in a very new market for Pro DSLR users. A lot of production houses considering these new DSLR's will spend absurd amounts of money on lenses, and they look for a full set, if Pentax can his those users we may find our old FA* glass in even higher demand than before.
But it is probably not a mid range body. It probably is a compact high end APS-C body for that part of the market that does not want a FF body (size/weight) or a Nikon/Canon low end body. The market for Leica like cameras at least in Europe is potentially huge. The number of 40+ males which will not blink when spending 3000 euro on some camera equipment is enormous, it will outnumber the number of pro photograpers at least 100:1.

Leica does not sell high numbers of cameras because the perceived value you get is insufficient (at least that is my personal perception). Nikon/Canon is what the crowd is using and some hard working pros, not really a reason to buy that if a compact high quality camera is available from a company they know from their youth.

So I think that Pentax is right to focus on MF digital and Leica like amateur segment for their higher end. They will offer a grip to make the K-7 bigger if you wished it to be (as Roland mentioned), but that is it. It is impossible for Pentax to make money in the pro-FF market. And, raising the price of old FA* glass is not really in the interest of Pentax too.
04-28-2009, 10:17 AM   #64
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It's true that technology has changed since the film days, but the market positioning has not. Nikon and Canon were always the leaders in the professional 35mm field, just as they're the leading names in smaller than MF cameras now. To expect Pentax to go toe-to-toe with those two (and be successful at it) is to expect Pentax to pull off a trick that they couldn't manage even when Pentax was in it's heyday.

04-28-2009, 01:46 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
The sensor is not entirely new, but it is a new version with improved performance. Circuit board design is shrinked which means shorter signal paths and also less surface noise coming from the circuit board. Also less power hungry and more effecient.
AF system is a development of the SAFOX, more advanced than the K20D AF system and finally with working AF in live view move.
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Pentax said that the new camera is not a direct replacement to the K20D, it is a "different concept". Actually, this new camera is more advanced than the K20D so it targets users above the K20D. That is why it is not a direct replacement to the K20D.
Just as the MZ-S wasn't a replacement to the MZ-5, it was a different camera.



The K20D won't have a direct replacement. Pentax had an idea of having 4 DSLR's in the lineup, but considering the economic decline in the world it is simply too much risk involved in having so many DSLR's in the lineup. It will be K-m, the K-7 and a new camera in-between the K-m and the K-7.



Ergonomics will be even better with the new camera since it has more direct access to certain functions without the need for a Fn-menu.

Pentax still has a wide selection of primes and keeps expanding them.

Performance in low light will be more reliable than the K20D with better AF system, and less noise at high ISO.



The K-7 will be a pro APS-C camera in a compact size, and will perform as one can expects from a pro APS-C camera. However, it will not be a 24x36 because the market is too small for a 24x36 - and Pentax can't afford to have lens series for different formats. Most of the APS-C lenses will not perform good on 24x36 bodies.
[QUOTE=RMabo;574241][QUOTE=joerg;574017]It is good that from the looks of it most Pentax users are excited about the direction of the K-7, I am interested to see how the camera positions itself in the market.
QuoteQuote:

The position is pro-level, metal body, weather sealing, pro features but in a compact size.



If the camera is found to be too small, a new battery grip is being developed for the new camera and will be available at the time of release of the camera. This accessory helps the ergonomics if having large hands wanting a big body.
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
The K-7 will not be "just another small APS-C". It is a pro level APS-C in a compact size, and it will be alone in this market segment. Not even Olympus has small pro-level cameras, and their 4/3 sensor is smaller than APS-C...
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Pentax representatives has said that the new camera is more advanced than the K20D and gives a higher performance with even better image quality. Pentax has even stated close to 24x36 image quality.

Of course, tests will show if those are just marketing words or if they have some truth in them - but Pentax is obviously very proud of the new camera and has high expectations.
Where are you getting this information from,,, other than the other half dozen ridiculous threads speculating on this camera? I haven’t seen a hard fact that supports any of your suppositions.
04-28-2009, 02:22 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
The thing I think many are overlooking is the top line FF bodies account for 2% of the total market share. . . .
Let Canon and Nikon beat each other up for the few who want to drop $3-7000 on a FF DSLR.
That is a point that is often overlooked by many. Most of the FF threads have about 3-4 people that debate this subject that would actually buy a Pentax FF body if it were to come out tomorrow. I would be happy if I could lay $8000 on a FA* 600mm. However, that is way out of my price range at the moment. I can even swing a A* 200mm macro or FA* macro even though I could easily justify it.
04-28-2009, 02:33 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by dopeytree Quote
Many photogs want the best quality they can get especially if it's going to be in print etc so many look at what people consider pro cameras... i.e full frame then theirs semi-pro cameras which the k20d i would say fits in.

But if a camera comes along giving you pro specs in a smaller body are you going to say no!?

It's much more about the photographer than his/her equipment but if having this tool helps them then all the better
Ive read alot of photojornalest just shoot jpg because its easier to download over a satlite phone
04-28-2009, 03:01 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrt10x Quote
Where are you getting this information from,,, other than the other half dozen ridiculous threads speculating on this camera? I haven’t seen a hard fact that supports any of your suppositions.
Most of that information Pentax has given itself in interviews over the past 6 months. Specifics like metal body and improved SAFVOX are new in what Roland has written - although plausible.

Roland tends to be more accurate than most (as in not wrong rather than particulary specific). Most of what he says is based on actual information from interviews, press releases etc rather than 'sources' but I believe he did at one time have close-ish relations with Pentax in some way (probably via a third party). This coupled with a general undestanding of the market and how Pentax operates combined with a bit of reading between the lines results in statements from him that hit many more times than they miss.

If you read what he has written carefully it is much more about the positioning of, and thought process behind, the camera than its raw specifications. And from here one can speculate as to its more specific abilities from a firmer foundation.

04-28-2009, 03:07 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by ecoronin Quote
Ive read alot of photojornalest just shoot jpg because its easier to download over a satlite phone
Yes a lot of paparazzi styles photogs or even up to date events etc probably are in jpeg but i'm talking up a level people who care about composition and exposure not just oh quick I can make some money out of this.. people who have skill to take a good photo and edit it properly to take it to the next level and for that most want raw / hdr

but true comment
04-28-2009, 03:08 PM   #70
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Peter, Are you talking Loonies, or Dollars?

I agree I won't buy ANYBODY'S full frame dslr for $3,000 to $7,000. But I have bought three brand new full frame dslrs in past year for $1,750, $2050, & $2,319. I'd guess you talking Loonies, not Dollars right? Thesedays B&H sells D700 for $2399 & 5DMarkII at issue $2699 w' free one week delivery on both/each. Heck, you can throw the Sony A900 in the mix as its $2699 also, down a full 10% off launch price.


I visit other forums & other brands and its simply amazing to me just how many people on fredmiranda own a 5D or 5D Mark II, or D700, or D3. Now I've never actually seen the 2% full frame production number from a credible source, you know like canon or nikon, but there are numerous canon and nikon full frame owners. Sony A900 owners, not so much, they are a rare breed. But inview of their full frame existence I've dropped a few hundred (so far) on some of their old minolta alpha gear. You never know, in 3 or 4 or 5 years I might add a Sony full frame to get inbody antishake included. Over time my $5, $25, $120 purchases can add up to a nifty kit. I think full frame dslrs at $2,000 or less would surely be met with more than a 2% dslr sales market share. I do hope the full frame price trend continues downward. $3,000 in my world is upward from where I sit.




QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
The thing I think many are overlooking is the top line FF bodies account for 2% of the total market share. So why would a smaller camera maker want to fight it out for such a small group of buyers? Add to that, if a company wants to have a truly Pro camera (whatever that is?) then they need a service department program that can support pro shooters and turn a camera around in 24 hours, offer loaners and all sorts of support programs. Far too expensive for the small return on sales.

If they decide to offer a larger sensor body, the 645 makes infinitly more sense as there is a built in group of buyers with lenses and a desire to own this camera in a D version.

Let Canon and Nikon beat each other up for the few who want to drop $3-7000 on a FF DSLR.
04-28-2009, 04:25 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I visit other forums & other brands and its simply amazing to me just how many people on fredmiranda own a 5D or 5D Mark II, or D700, or D3. Now I've never actually seen the 2% full frame production number from a credible source, you know like canon or nikon, but there are numerous canon and nikon full frame owners.
The source of the number is something someone from Nikon Europe said. Can't find it right now I'll look later.

9.6 million dslrs sold in 2008. 2% of that is still 193k, and it stands to reason that a higher-than-representational number of those purchasers are dedicated enough to be posting on online forums.

QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I think full frame dslrs at $2,000 or less would surely be met with more than a 2% dslr sales market share. I do hope the full frame price trend continues downward. $3,000 in my world is upward from where I sit.
I think you've exactly nailed why Hoya/Pentax isn't interested in focusing on this. Who wants to get into a price war with Sony/Nikon/Canon with so little potential return.
04-28-2009, 05:12 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
The source of the number is something someone from Nikon Europe said. Can't find it right now I'll look later.

9.6 million dslrs sold in 2008. 2% of that is still 193k, and it stands to reason that a higher-than-representational number of those purchasers are dedicated enough to be posting on online forums.
Yup, that's pretty much it. Most people who frequent photo forums such as FM are those who really will save tons of money and spend it on the latest and greatest photo gear. Much of those forum members are working professionals who can easily write-off the cost of that expensive gear.

The rest who buy sub-$1000 cameras (APS-C and 4/3), especially those who simply wanted a more capable camera than their P&S and went for entry-level bodies don't spend as much time on forums.

Samsungian, not everyone has access to US prices, so while you managed to get good deals for your gear, we don't have the same luxury. I could possibly shop online, but customs will tax me for it, so it's not a good deal anymore. And my personal spending cap for a camera body remains at $1000 and below, unless I win the lottery or something.

In hindsight, that's probably why I'm with Pentax now. I get a lot from the money I spend. I can't get a better camera for $670 than the K20D.
04-28-2009, 06:49 PM   #73
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So the k20D is $670 in your neck of the woods, w/ all your local fees?

No argument from me the $670 K20D is something everyone should own. I've considered a 2nd one but I've got my sights on something I really need:

New Wimberley Gimbal Head:

Wimberley Professional Photo Gear - The Wimberley Head

I owned their first version gimbal years ago when I had a 400mm 2.8. Sold it after I sold the 400 2.8. I miss it, and 2nd version is really improved upon. I took 2nd version one to Yellowstone a couple visits ago, but the lens I had (((sucked))) due to really out of balance tripod mount: 135-600mm SMC Pentax, so I sold the lens and returned the loaner gimbal. Now I've got a few 5-6 pound lenses that would benefit from the effortless head.

So no 2nd K20D for me, I'm getting me a new gimbal instead.

QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote

In hindsight, that's probably why I'm with Pentax now. I get a lot from the money I spend. I can't get a better camera for $670 than the K20D.
04-28-2009, 08:28 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
No argument from me the $670 K20D is something everyone should own. I've considered a 2nd one but I've got my sights on something I really need:

New Wimberley Gimbal Head:

Wimberley Professional Photo Gear - The Wimberley Head

I owned their first version gimbal years ago when I had a 400mm 2.8. Sold it after I sold the 400 2.8. I miss it, and 2nd version is really improved upon. I took 2nd version one to Yellowstone a couple visits ago, but the lens I had (((sucked))) due to really out of balance tripod mount: 135-600mm SMC Pentax, so I sold the lens and returned the loaner gimbal. Now I've got a few 5-6 pound lenses that would benefit from the effortless head.

So no 2nd K20D for me, I'm getting me a new gimbal instead.
I don't think you can go wrong with that head. I bought the version 1 for use under my 600 and just love it.

With the version two, have they changed the way the lens axis is adjusted to the horizontal axis of the tripod?
I'm actually not sure if I think the sideways lock is am improvement, unless it allows much easier operation and smoother movement. One of the things I like about the version 1 is that there is nothing to break off the thing if it's rattling aroind in the back of my truck.
04-28-2009, 09:13 PM   #75
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I don't think they changed the axis but

Overall Version2 is a two or so inches shorter and they cut a pound off it. I like the built in quick release too. I liked the side tightening knob over the center knob too. I really liked version one, but had no reason to keep it once the 13 pound 400mm 2.8 lens found a new home and I needed money back for something else. Wimberley were very cool to allow me a testdrive with version2 and my newly acquired 135-600mm SMC Pentax. What a wacky misbalanced lens it is/was.

In the meantime I picked up wimberley sidekick after I got a great deal on a graf studioball head. Sidekick is very nice and handy but I dont like having to put the lens collar on the side. Plus I worry I might mindlessly loosen the big knob on the ball head and cause the equiptment grief or worse: crash it all. I miss having a full gimbal. Mindless, effortless. Well worth the investment for bigger lenses, as you know

;^)

Sidekick link if anyone's curious:

Wimberley Professional Photo Gear - The Sidekick


QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I don't think you can go wrong with that head. I bought the version 1 for use under my 600 and just love it.

With the version two, have they changed the way the lens axis is adjusted to the horizontal axis of the tripod?
I'm actually not sure if I think the sideways lock is am improvement, unless it allows much easier operation and smoother movement. One of the things I like about the version 1 is that there is nothing to break off the thing if it's rattling aroind in the back of my truck.
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