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05-07-2009, 01:43 PM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
This attitude ignores the very real advantages of a full frame sensor. Pentax makes a pretty decent camera body, I really don't understand why there is this infantile resistance towards people who would like to see them make a better Pentax.
Ken, I totally agree that FF sensors have advantages. I'm not resisting an FF camera from Pentax, I just wouldn't be interested in buying one. And I don't understand why people such as yourself keep harping on Pentax for not having one when they keep sending pretty clear signals that they have no immediate intentions of making one. It's time to face reality, either make do with an APS-C Pentax or switch to some other manufacturer which will give you what you want.

05-07-2009, 03:09 PM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by zplus Quote
Exhibit A.
Sorry were you trying to make a point?
05-07-2009, 03:11 PM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by zplus Quote
Exhibit B.

Looks like I'm going to have to take pictures to prove my point.
Sorry, but there is no point at issue - its basic optics. Now, if you want to go and take some pictures, be my guest.
05-07-2009, 03:26 PM   #199
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At the end all of my friends switched to FF this year.

Non of them a pro photographer, and as anointing as it is that amateurs are getting a FF cameras.... the reality is that they are.

I still believe that Pentax will have a FF and only for that reason.

Out side of the pentax world FF is the thing for advanced amateurs today not just professionals.

I am buying FF lenses.. as hard as it is... just in case. luckily pentax have the ltds in digital and film version still

05-07-2009, 03:52 PM   #200
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I posted one of my own film shots earlier trying to show the advantage of FF. I've then been told that I could have achieved better results using an APS body. This time, I will just link to a better picture taken by some one I know. Can anyone honestly say that similar results can be achieved with APS body?

On Black: Nadine by NNBB & Alf
05-07-2009, 04:15 PM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
I posted one of my own film shots earlier trying to show the advantage of FF. I've then been told that I could have achieved better results using an APS body. This time, I will just link to a better picture taken by some one I know. Can anyone honestly say that similar results can be achieved with APS body?

On Black: Nadine by NNBB & Alf
This is how the 31mm should look like . its a great picture but obviously lots of pp work.

And just for argument sake if you include PP to the mix the deference become slimmer.

still yes this wideness is shocking !
05-07-2009, 04:16 PM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
I posted one of my own film shots earlier trying to show the advantage of FF. I've then been told that I could have achieved better results using an APS body. This time, I will just link to a better picture taken by some one I know. Can anyone honestly say that similar results can be achieved with APS body?

On Black: Nadine by NNBB & Alf
Certainly need more to go on than that BUT w/ a 35mm lens at f2 on a k20 you have 4.54ft DOF.....
all my rough approx. of equivalency to that photo. (no clue how close this is)
At 24mm 10ft away at f2 you have 4.39ft DOF.....
Give me an image where you know the distance, f stop and lens.....
then use this to see if it can be done...
Online Depth of Field Calculator
16mm at 5ft f/2 7ft you get 5.2ft dof...equiv to 31mm f2.84 @10ft (5.73 DOF)....
Not saying any of these numbers are right of course. Anyone good at these estimations?
24mm @ f1.8 @ 7ft...... 1.86ft

to use your picture and some assumptions you have the 35mm f2 at let's say 8ft.. DOF on FF is 1.91ft
w/ a K20 35mm f2 at 10 feet 1.99
28@f2 8ft 2ft dof. at 2.8 2.87ft
how about a sigma 24 f1.8??
@7 ft... 1.86ft DOF
Sigma EX Wide-angle lens - 24 mm - F/1.8 - Pentax K

And personally you don't really even have to go that wide for effect... personal opinion.
See this (will be removed shortly)
http://www.qualiteitems.com/images/resample5.jpg
to be fair there are images impossible to get w/ APS-C vs FF but much fewer then is usually assumed...

Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-07-2009 at 04:48 PM.
05-07-2009, 04:23 PM   #203
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Seems the exif is stripped, so I should add that it was taken with a 35/1.4L + Canon 5D.


QuoteOriginally posted by redpigeons Quote
This is how the 31mm should look like . its a great picture but obviously lots of pp work.

And just for argument sake if you include PP to the mix the deference become slimmer.

still yes this wideness is shocking !


05-07-2009, 05:38 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
I posted one of my own film shots earlier trying to show the advantage of FF. I've then been told that I could have achieved better results using an APS body. This time, I will just link to a better picture taken by some one I know. Can anyone honestly say that similar results can be achieved with APS body?

On Black: Nadine by NNBB & Alf

Don't get into that kind of fight. You have no obligation to justify it. You just want FF, and make your voice heard.

The APS camps already have gotten their wish and gotten complete set of APS primes and zooms (save the damn 11-16mm 2.8) They got nothing to complain, they are no in a position to make opposite noice. Now its time you and us ask for what we want. just make your voice heard. Pentax is doing viral marketing now they may pay proper attention to enthusiast forums.
05-07-2009, 06:33 PM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
I posted one of my own film shots earlier trying to show the advantage of FF. I've then been told that I could have achieved better results using an APS body. This time, I will just link to a better picture taken by some one I know. Can anyone honestly say that similar results can be achieved with APS body?

On Black: Nadine by NNBB & Alf
Why not? Sorry, but without any EXIF data its not really possible to tell. If you can tell me the distance and F stop used, then I could tell you.

Looking at it I would guess about 14 ft subject distance and at least 6 ft DOF (judging by the sleepers in focus). That would need an F stop of 2.0.

On an APS camera, if I used a 24mm lens at F 2.0, I would get a DOF of 9 ft. Do you really think that would make much difference? The far focus only extends about 20" more. In this scene I dont think it would matter as the background is so far away.

If I used a Canon 24mm F1.4 I could reduce the DOF as far as 6 ft, though generally shooting wide open with either lens is not going to leave a very sharp subject.

I should point out that in the UK, the 35mm F1.4 cost 1200, and the 24mm f1.4 costs 1400. Not sure how relevant this is unless you have that sort of money.

Even if I could not have done this in the camera, I could easily have done it in photoshop. In fact this looks like it was PS enhanced, to be honest.
05-07-2009, 08:51 PM   #206
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I think that all of the:

"FF posts are unnecessary"

"Sensor technology will make the IQ differences between FF and APS-C moot"

"FF is too expensive"

"Pentax shouldn't make a FF"

"Pentax lacks the resources to make a FF system"

"If you want FF, go buy a Nikon/Canon/Sony"

"If you want FF, you're in the wrong camp"

"APS-C is good enough"

"The difference between FF and APS-C is insignificant/not worth the additional cost"

"Only pros need FF"

"Those who want FF are only satisfying gear lust"

"Pentax doesn't have FF lenses in production, so they shouldn't make a FF dSLR"

"645D makes FF moot"

"FF bodies are big and heavy"

"Format size doesn't matter"

"You don't NEED a FF camera"

"If you want a bigger format, just go with the 645D"

"You need better lenses to use with a FF dSLR"

"FF lenses are big and heavy"

"If you compare the K20D with a D700, you can see how much bigger/heavier a FF camera is"

...posts are (a) unnecessary, (b) annoying, (c) for the most part the rationalizations of those who have bought deeply into the APS-C(ompromise) system and have to justify it in their mind repeatedly.

Some additional thoughts/comments for the record (for those who can't seem to grasp why many want Pentax to make a FF dSLR):

APS-C viewfinders SUCK A$$ - and Pentax has some of the best of the crop (no pun intended!) and they STILL SUCK A$$ - because they're TOO SMALL - and they're TOO SMALL because the SENSORS are TOO SMALL.

"Sensor technology" will NEVER ERASE THE IQ DIFFERENCE between FF and APS-C, because SMALLER formats place GREATER DEMANDS ON THE OPTICS, NOT the other way around. First, improvements will be incorporated into BOTH formats, and are MORE likely to appear in FF FIRST (new technologies don't tend to "trickle UP"). Second, APS-C (Pentax version) is about 42% of the size of FF, which means you're asking the lenses to resolve the SAME DETAILS in a photo framed the same way down to 42% of the size the lens would have to resolve those details to on FF. This basic problem will never be swept aside by anything they do to SENSORS, because it is an issue of OPTICS, and doesn't change whether you put film or a sensor behind the lens! Like it or not, larger formats are always going to improve IQ.

And some additional comments as to oft-repeated misconceptions:

APS-C dSLRs are NOT "thicker" than film SLRs to address the need for "telecentric" light paths to the sensor. The sensor is THE SAME F---ING DISTANCE FROM THE LENS AS THE FILM PLANE - if it weren't, NOTHING WOULD BE IN FOCUS. The additional "thickness" is there to house all of the additional electronics and storage a dSLR contains, and that's it.

Comparisons between a K20D and a Nikon/Canon/Sony FF camera ARE MEANINGLESS and tell you ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the relative size/weight of FF vs. APS-C. Compare apples to apples (i.e., cameras with similar construction, feature content, etc.) and you will see that the size/weight difference is MINISCULE and certainly nothing to whine about. (See Nikon D300 APS-C vs. Nikon D700 FF size comparison here: D300 vs D700 - size compared - Nikon D700 ).

Plenty of us ALREADY HAVE a full array of FF Pentax mount lenses and would like to use them on a PENTAX FF dSLR. Believe it or not, WE'RE NOT INTERESTED IN A NIKON/CANON/SONY product, because that basically means STARTING OVER.

When people talk about the supposed "deficiencies" of older lenses due to the "need" for more "telecentric" light paths to the sensors, they are talking about SENSOR TECHNOLOGY DEFICIENCIES, NOT LENS DEFICIENCIES. Further, most telephoto lenses are ALREADY "telecentric" by design, hence the supposed "issue" only arises in short focal length lenses and is mostly FUD to sell you new lenses.

Oh, and for those that think they can "do anything with APS-C that you can do with FF," kindly show me the APS-C lens that provides the same (rectilinear) FOV of the Sigma 12 - 24 lens @ 12mm. No? Didn't think so.

I'm sure there's more, but my brain is too tired. Bed time!
05-07-2009, 09:08 PM   #207
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IMHO the DOF in that picture is far less than 6 feet.

And frankly, I'm not all that interested in DOF calculations. I would love to be able to emulate the wide angle & shallow DOF effect of that picture with my APS body, but I've never seen an example of that being done with an APS body.


QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Why not? Sorry, but without any EXIF data its not really possible to tell. If you can tell me the distance and F stop used, then I could tell you.

Looking at it I would guess about 14 ft subject distance and at least 6 ft DOF (judging by the sleepers in focus). That would need an F stop of 2.0.

On an APS camera, if I used a 24mm lens at F 2.0, I would get a DOF of 9 ft. Do you really think that would make much difference? The far focus only extends about 20" more. In this scene I dont think it would matter as the background is so far away.

If I used a Canon 24mm F1.4 I could reduce the DOF as far as 6 ft, though generally shooting wide open with either lens is not going to leave a very sharp subject.

I should point out that in the UK, the 35mm F1.4 cost 1200, and the 24mm f1.4 costs 1400. Not sure how relevant this is unless you have that sort of money.

Even if I could not have done this in the camera, I could easily have done it in photoshop. In fact this looks like it was PS enhanced, to be honest.
05-07-2009, 11:24 PM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Plenty of us ALREADY HAVE a full array of FF Pentax mount lenses and would like to use them on a PENTAX FF dSLR. Believe it or not, WE'RE NOT INTERESTED IN A NIKON/CANON/SONY product, because that basically means STARTING OVER.
Actually, this is where Pentax would have a problem. You may think there are many of you who have a full line of FF lenses, but there really aren't. I reckon more people who uses a Pentax now don't have the luxury of owning a lot of FA lenses like you do.

And even if there are a number of you with lenses, Pentax wants *more* customers and not just those who already have lenses, and this is where the problem lies. I'm glad that you have gone Pentax when a lot of us were still into Atari or some such, but the newer generation doesn't have the full set of lenses you guys do. And even those who do have FA*s aren't even sure to buy FF in the near future.

So without the FF lenses for the new generation of Pentax users, a Pentax FF DSLR will have little traction to go on. And they won't be cheap either, owing to the fact that Pentax has a far smaller user base than Canon and Nikon. Sony was brave to enter the fray because they have huge capitals and Nikon is indirectly funding some of the FF R&D.

Believe me, I really don't think anyone here will complain much if Pentax releases an FF DSLR. We would all welcome it (maybe some won't, but I reckon that will only be a few people). I know I would. But looking at the feasibility of such a venture, it becomes more and more of a haphazard venture now. I'd rather Pentax be a laggard again and wait until FF sensor costs and yields have gone down and up, respectively, and prepare a full FF lens line-up in the meantime than go full tilt on it and possibly bring company operations down to its knees if it fails to sell.

Last edited by vinzer; 05-07-2009 at 11:31 PM.
05-07-2009, 11:47 PM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
This time, I will just link to a better picture taken by some one I know. Can anyone honestly say that similar results can be achieved with APS body?
On Black: Nadine by NNBB & Alf
Wonder what was the aperture set to?

I recently have been trying my FA31 on ME Super and got stunned by the new possibilities.
05-07-2009, 11:59 PM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
"If you want FF, go buy a Nikon/Canon/Sony"

"If you want FF, you're in the wrong camp"
Aren't these true? As has been repeated ad nauseum, Pentax has said they have no imminent plans for FF. This is a rough analogy, so bear with me, but if you want a Whopper it doesn't really make sense to hang around McDonald's every day demanding they make one because you like McDonalds' fries. You just move on to Burger King and get a whopper and learn to like their fries. As far as having to switch systems, it may be a bit of a pain in the ass, but there is a market for Pentax lenses and selling them off can't be any more maddening for you folks than checking Pentax rumors every week to find they still aren't making a FF camera.


QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
APS-C viewfinders SUCK A$$ - and Pentax has some of the best of the crop (no pun intended!) and they STILL SUCK A$$ - because they're TOO SMALL - and they're TOO SMALL because the SENSORS are TOO SMALL.
This is only true if you have poor eyesight. APS-C viewfinders are bright enough for me when street shooting at night. Again, some people don't see as well, they need the bigger VF of a FF. Pentax doesn't make one. So, now what?
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