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05-04-2009, 08:08 AM   #46
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i blushed a little when my name was mentioned without some sort of demeaning remark followed after it


as was said, i think people who really get into a hoopla about this whole FF/APS-C debate are missing the point.

its a FORMAT issue

recording medium format size + lens = result

medium format + 50mm = result A

FF + 50mm = result B

APSC+ 50mm = result C


i got into digital photography only to find out that what i wanted out of my photos was hard to achieve using APSC, is easier achieved with FF, and as soon as i scratch up enough money will give medium format a try, which i think will satisfy my needs the most.

those people who want FF from pentax for "better quality", or assume that a FF sensor is going to give them "better quality" are fooling themselves

and those people who think that there are no merits to FF are also idiots.

its a compromise and some people will go one way or the other, but i think it would be nice to give Pentax users the option rather than force them into just one, that benefits birders more than anyone.

05-04-2009, 08:15 AM   #47
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You also have to remember that the 5D MkII is a HUGE camera .

Very BAD for street or candid, Not to mention the large size zooms.

Pentax have some of the best glass around and I hope they will stick with great fast glass and small systems.

That will make Penatx the best street, candid, travel camera .

for me DOF is important but if people are running away when I am aiming my camera at them the DOF will not help me
05-04-2009, 08:28 AM   #48
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look. there are definitely advantages to FF. more importantly, people *want* FF, and in the end that's what matters. its about what the market wants, for better or worse. (Beta was better than VHS, HD-DVD was debatably better than Blu-Ray, Sega better than Nintendo etc. etc. etc.. we don't want Pentax to end like those others do we?)

i believe Pentax is working on FF, but they are doing so conservatively, lenses first.

they didn't have money to go all-in instantly like Sony did, so i see them patiently testing all their old FF lens formulas one by one, seeing how they perform digitally, finding the very best, comparing them to what's on the market now and modernizing them to tomorrow's standards -on paper. then maybe play around with some prototypes.

when the time comes, the economy improves and Hoya gets more confidence in their relatively new acquisition Pentax (go K-7), they'll put this all new modern FF lens line in production - by far the most expensive part of "going FF" - along with their long awaited FF camera.

they could only go into actual MF production now, because MF doesn't use a complete line of specialty zooms of various lengths and uses. what they'll learn about large sensor digital with the 645D, together with what they've learned making the K-7, along with the massive catalog of already well regarded FF lenses will ensure that when Pentax does join the digital FF party, it will come better prepared than anybody.

until then, enjoy some of the best aps-c cameras on the market now. Pentax already is taking unique advantage of that particular format, and making the smallest, toughest digital camera not possible in FF.
05-04-2009, 08:34 AM   #49
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I recently saw a Nikon D700 with the grip and it is also a HUGE camera and something I would not like to carry around. The K10D is is about as large a camera as I want to carry. A FF camera would be way out of my price range anyhow and I would probably never buy one.

05-04-2009, 08:36 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by redpigeons Quote
You also have to remember that the 5D MkII is a HUGE camera .

Very BAD for street or candid, Not to mention the large size zooms.

Pentax have some of the best glass around and I hope they will stick with great fast glass and small systems.

That will make Penatx the best street, candid, travel camera .

for me DOF is important but if people are running away when I am aiming my camera at them the DOF will not help me
For street shooting, I don't see any difference between using a 5D or a K20.

A few millimeters in dimensions don't make any difference for the people you're taking pictures of: people notice you're carrying a camera and take pictures anyway... they either care, or they don't.

I take street pics using a 5D (rather big with its vertical brick... err sorrry I meant grip) or a Spotmatic SPII (rather small, smaller than a K20/K7 anyway) and I never noticed a difference in people's behaviour towards me.

Street shooting is more about the photographer's attitude than about the size of his camera I think.
05-04-2009, 08:38 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote

...Since film was only truly viewed at printing size, it made it a lot harder to pixel peep than it is now on today's dslr...
In the old distance past, I viewed my film with a grain magnifier on the enlarger or with a loupe prior to printing. With slides, they were projected at wall size. I guess that is pretty much the same as pixel peeping.

Steve
05-04-2009, 08:42 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by wll Quote
Yep, this was my point, new technology is being developed all the time and there will come a time when the size of the sensor is a moot point...
One small problem...optics to support the future wonderful, excellent, small sensor. That is the crux of the issue.

Steve
05-04-2009, 08:44 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
...But there really are pros and cons to APS-C and FF. It really becomes a matter of personal preference than a unanimous decision.
Excellent comment! Three cheers!

Steve

05-04-2009, 08:47 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
For street shooting, I don't see any difference between using a 5D or a K20.

A few millimeters in dimensions don't make any difference for the people you're taking pictures of: people notice you're carrying a camera and take pictures anyway... they either care, or they don't.

I take street pics using a 5D (rather big with its vertical brick... err sorrry I meant grip) or a Spotmatic SPII (rather small, smaller than a K20/K7 anyway) and I never noticed a difference in people's behaviour towards me.

The difference is perhaps really in the photographer's head anyway...
not just the photographer's head...their BACK too. see if there's no difference carrying a 5D with lenses (with in lens motors and IS) all day in a foreign city versus a k200 or k20 and some Limited lenses. grip too? sorry, but you're a masochist.

not only that, try feeling safe enough with that setup in a third world country. i came back from Carnaval in Brazil with my K20 and 40DA, whipping it out on a whim and easily hiding it when i was finished. even if it was seen, it looked like a bridge/superzoom camera, barely worth the trouble. i'm sure you would've kept your 5D and L glass at home.

even if it's all in the photographer's head, it will still mean the camera is taken along more and actually used.
05-04-2009, 09:14 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Eh?

How can you reach a motion stopping speed and still not be able to hand-hold your camera?

Furthermore, if you're using high ISO to get to that necessary speed, wouldn't it be preferable to have clean high ISO?
You may be right on the point of stopping motion. However, the fact remains that in static or slow moving scenes, image stabilization allows one to shoot at 2-3 stops lower ISO, which compensates significantly for higher noise levels of an APS-C sensor. For many of us, this is a trade-off we will gladly make in order to have a lighter, more compact kit. Of course, one can have FF and image stabilized lenses as well, but now we are talking about really serious cash.

Generally speaking, the difference in IQ between FF and APS-C is surprisingly small and is inconsequential for most photographic purposes.

Rob

Last edited by robgo2; 05-04-2009 at 10:02 PM.
05-04-2009, 09:16 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
not just the photographer's head...their BACK too. see if there's no difference carrying a 5D with lenses (with in lens motors and IS) all day in a foreign city versus a k200 or k20 and some Limited lenses. grip too? sorry, but you're a masochist.

not only that, try feeling safe enough with that setup in a third world country. i came back from Carnaval in Brazil with my K20 and 40DA, whipping it out on a whim and easily hiding it when i was finished. even if it was seen, it looked like a bridge/superzoom camera, barely worth the trouble. i'm sure you would've kept your 5D and L glass at home.

even if it's all in the photographer's head, it will still mean the camera is taken along more and actually used.
You assume too much about me... but that's OK!

I really have no trouble carying the 5D with a few primes (I use an EF 35f2 primarily but sometimes also a Pentax M42 135f2.5) in a small backpack.

For street photography, I am trying to teach myself to get close to the people so a (tele-)zoom would be counter productive. I don't try to hide, on the contrary, I let people see what I am doing and if they're OK with it or not (especially in the third world countries you're talking about).

So far, I have stepped down from the 135 ("shy") lens to the 35 ("close but respectful") one...

One day, I might be using a 20mm ("in your face") but I'm not quite there yet!!

When I'm just touring some place, I get out with the 24-105f4L which does an extraordinary job as an allround lens; Here again, no problem carying it and using it.

Where I don't feel safe I usually don't shoot (camera stays in the bag) be it with a K20, a 5D or a P&S but I have spent quite some time in Africa (2 years) and travelled a few miles with a Z1-P with no problem until the Z1 got stolen... in it's photobag at a train station... the guy never knew what he had stolen before opening the bag...
05-04-2009, 09:28 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
You assume too much about me... but that's OK!

I really have no trouble carying the 5D with a few primes (I use an EF 35f2 primarily but sometimes also a Pentax M42 135f2.5) in a small backpack.

For street photography, I am trying to teach myself to get close to the people so a (tele-)zoom would be counter productive. I don't try to hide, on the contrary, I let people see what I am doing and if they're OK with it or not (especially in the third world countries you're talking about).

So far, I have stepped down from the 135 ("shy") lens to the 35 ("close but respectful") one...

One day, I might be using a 20mm ("in your face") but I'm not quite there yet!!

When I'm just touring some place, I get out with the 24-105f4L which does an extraordinary job as an allround lens; Here again, no problem carying it and using it.

Where I don't feel safe I usually don't shoot (camera stays in the bag) be it with a K20, a 5D or a P&S but I have spent quite some time in Africa (2 years) and travelled a few miles with a Z1-P with no problem until the Z1 got stolen... in it's photobag at a train station... the guy never knew what he had stolen before opening the bag...
sorry for assuming. one thing i do know though is you must be a lot stronger than me

on my same trip to Brazil this guy proudly was showing off his brand new (but all logos taped over) 5DII with said 24-105L. he was gleaming with pride, waving it all about, but i never saw that camera outside the apartment we were renting in Rio. and that was without the grip..
05-04-2009, 09:34 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by jay Quote


Some day -- soon -- we'll all be laughing at the full-frame cameras of yesteryear. The big dinosaurs. We'll tell our kids that cameras used to have to be big if you wanted good image quality.

I suspect we won't be laughing about how much nicer it was to have the viewfinder that went along with that full frame camera as we continue to peer into scale model viewfinders trying desperately to see what is in front of us.
05-04-2009, 09:35 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
For street shooting, I don't see any difference between using a 5D or a K20.

A few millimeters in dimensions don't make any difference for the people you're taking pictures of"
I totally agree. I mean seriously, the K20D isn't that much smaller than a D300 (which is virtually the same size as a D700):


Plus I think the D700 has a more comfortable grip (it has a place for my pinky finger). The Olympus E-420 with 25mm pancake or a Pentax KM with a pancake lens is about as close as you can get to an unobtrusive SLR. Unfortunately, I find both of them to be uncomfortable and both also have crap view finders.

I weighed my Flipside 200 backpack full of walk around gear once (K10D, FA 43mm, 70-300mm, and 18-55mm, tripod + strobe and Lumiquest Softbox III) and it weighed in at 14lbs. A pound here or there doesn't make a difference to me.

I think the perfect set up is a nice, comfy pro-grade SLR body for sports, portraits, strobist stuff, studio work, etc. Then get Olympus' m4/3 system for street shooting when you'd prefer just to walk around with a camera in one pocket and a few pancake lenses in the other.
05-04-2009, 11:08 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
sorry for assuming. one thing i do know though is you must be a lot stronger than me

on my same trip to Brazil this guy proudly was showing off his brand new (but all logos taped over) 5DII with said 24-105L. he was gleaming with pride, waving it all about, but i never saw that camera outside the apartment we were renting in Rio. and that was without the grip..
Well, what can I say... this guy apparently bought a camera for bragging rights but I still don't see what prevented him from using it like you did with your Pentax, grip or no grip tape or no tape over logos (like thieves read logos on cameras before stealing them...).

Maybe the real problem is the price of the camera more than the heft, I don't know.

Or maybe I am just a fool, but at least a very very muscular fool!!

(I wonder why my wife is laughing by my side as I type that...)
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