[lesmore49]

I see there are some photographers out there who want to enter the Medium Format world. Maybe my experience will help.

I have medium format cameras my Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta (an oldie), a Yashica and my Mamiya. The Mamiya has three interchangeable lenses...I've also used a Pentax 6 X 7...but just with one lens the 90 mm leaf shutter.

They are all great, all use 120/220 film and are all relatively big, awkward and heavy (except the Yashica TLR) compared to a typical DSLR or a 35mm SLR camera.

Most of the time I used/use a tripod...a heavy duty one at that...a Leitz Tiltall...after I broke a lighter duty tripod when I was using the Pentax 6 X 7 .

I find the medium formats are more the studio or portrait/ landscape type of cameras. I spend a lot of time with composition when using them...for example I don't use a Medium format while taking a picture of a fast moving bird...I use my K10D and 55-300 mm zoom for that...I can move that combo faster than say my Mamiya with it's 180 lens...quite a heavy combo.

Medium format is an interesting area of photography, but if you haven't used one before I suggest you rent one or borrow one..try it out...see if you like it..it is quite different than a DSLR.

Also it's an expensive area of photography...if you think digital SLR's are pricey..medium formats, especially the digital variety can be very expensive.

You may like medium Format..or maybe not...but as I suggested before, save yourself a bundle and rent one for awhile and click, click, click...see if you want to really have a medium format. You may have a different opinion after the 'new' wears off, if you get my drift.

Personally I find my K10D to be a great camera...does what I want and with the right natural lighting for wildlife...find it hard to beat.

Just one old guy's opinion, based on long experience.

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Last edited by lesmore49; 05-12-2009 at 01:14 PM.

[lesmore49]

The survey says:

Will Pentax Succeed with the New K-7 and Strategy?
Yes
No

Frankly I don't know...so far all I've read is speculation...maybe I've missed something...but if I haven't how can you make an 'informed' decision before you see and know the product.

[jeffkrol]

SNIP

Please down rez your photos......

[GoldenWreckedAngle]

...Below is one of the photography forums I visit.

Good Luck finding armwresting debates over which is better:

Full frame or apc-c or aps-h or...

Or debates over gear that does not exist, when so much great gear already exists & has for a couple decades...

Good Luck finding a dedicated Pentax area like their Canon & Nikon forums.

There's alot of working pros on fredmiranda. Lots of great info:

FM Forums

Of course they don't arm wrestle over that stuff on F.M.. They are too busy arm wrestling over whether $250 Paul C. Buff lights are better than $1200 Prophotos. As to never debating over gear that doesn't exist, do a search for Einstein. It's a photography forum... Pros may debate with a little more class when their business face is on the line, but they do debate, even over gear that doesn't yet exist.

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Last edited by GoldenWreckedAngle; 05-12-2009 at 03:12 PM.

[nosnoop]

Please down rez your photos......

+1

Samsungian, please!

You can simply use [IMGWIDE] tag instead of [IMG];
Or in the WYSIWYG editor, click on this instead of this . Thanks! Otherwise, I have to use side scrolling for each message!

[falconeye]

Please down rez your photos......

I agree.
Or better yet, use [IMGWIDELEFT] rather than [IMG] (I actually like the option to click to enlarge).

[falconeye]

Lets face it when someone here says full frame sales are 1% 2% 4% 10% they just picking a number

I agree and share your interest for real data.
Not only unit sales. Or turnover by models. Overall aggregate profit as well.

I can imagine that FF cameras are cash cows (like some lenses) and that makers hide this fact from the market (to keep it that way ).

[jeffkrol]

I agree and share your interest for real data.
Not only unit sales. Or turnover by models. Overall aggregate profit as well.

I can imagine that FF cameras are cash cows (like some lenses) and that makers hide this fact from the market (to keep it that way ).

I actually assume businesses are smarter then us in this area. IF FF were "cash cows" everyone, including Pentax would be in in the game (well sort of everyone is w/ 1 model, some 2 at vastly different price points) and aps would be "out" and Samsung would be in FF.
Back to the dime a dozen sensors eh..
A fairly balanced FF vs APS-C article. I know... pop photo...
The Full-Frame Decision - Digital Photo Tips and More on PopPhoto.com


As for some old insight into margins:


> I'd like to see actual industry sales numbers by Dec., both in terms
> of UNITS and DOLLARS. We won't see the MARGINS, but the FF model
> should rate a higher markup than the APS-C's.
So far, true for Nikon, not true for Canon. But the game is changing...
Re: Sony must be discounting like crazy: News Discussion Forum: Digital Photography Review

20 September 2008
From that same thread.. for fun:
Key figures regarding DSLRs only (April-June 2008):
DSLR units/ operating profit margin

> Canon 1,050,000 23.2
> Nikon 820,000 19.1
> Sony 330,000 -16,7
> Olympus 150,000 -6.7
Older example of production figures:
D3 bodies are currently being made at a rate of about 400 per day in Sendai, but this will grow to about 600 per day in September for a planned ongoing production of 12,000 units per month. Assembly of the D300, which takes place at Nikon's factory in Thailand, will also be in full swing in September, at which time 60,000 units of the midrange digital SLR will emerge each month.
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-8742-9087
sorry more babble........
Nikon's estimated DSLR sales over the next year is 2.5 million units. Market has grown since 2006, and Nikon's market share has grown even more. The D3 is scheduled for an initial production rate of 8,000 unit/m, probably somewhat reduced after the first month, let's say it will end on 75,000/year - that's 3 per cent of NIkon's yearly production of DSLR units. Those figures have been given by Nikon and they are to be found in two recent Tokyo stockbrokers' reports on Nikon, one from Lehman Brothers dated Aug. 30th (12 pages) and one from Deutsche Bank dated Sep. 17th (9 pages). 3 per cent may be somwhat higher than what I suggested from memory earlier in this thread, but still it's much, much lower than the 8 per cent, you have misguided yourself to postulate here with quite some noise.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=25251160
17 October 2007

Why post all this? IF things were significantly better today then we would know just by corporate back slapping... " FF production doubles" ect....

[nosnoop]

Lets face it when someone here says full frame sales are 1% 2% 4% 10% they just picking a number, & not suppling a link. Infact 2008 data has not been released for free yet.

Unfortunately, official figures are hard to come by and costs $$$$. Japanese sales were usually quoted as it used to be the easiest stats to obtain. Sadly even in Japan, the market share figures were no longer released since some time last year, all we can get now is the weekly and monthly Japanese sales ranking. Worldwide stats is even harder to get. You get the occasional IDC press releases and that's about it.

Anyways, Japanese FF:APS-C market share ratio is pretty close to the global figure; or maybe even slightly higher in previous years.

Just to give you some ideas. For the Japanese weekly/monthly sales chart, anything below the top 10-12 usually means less than 2% market share. Anything below the top 20 usually means less than 1% market share.

In the month of April in Japan, Canon 5D II occupies #19 and #20 (different configurations). So an approximate total of about 2% market share. D700 was at #36 and #46 - a total of maybe at around 1%. And the A900 is way down at #77. Others such as 1D III, D3, D3x are all outside the top 70. So I would say, not counting 5D and D700, the total of all other FF combined would be much less than 1%.

[David]

I see there are some photographers out there who want to enter the Medium Format world. Maybe my experience will help.

I have medium format cameras my Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta (an oldie), a Yashica and my Mamiya. The Mamiya has three interchangeable lenses...I've also used a Pentax 6 X 7...but just with one lens the 90 mm leaf shutter.

They are all great, all use 120/220 film and are all relatively big, awkward and heavy (except the Yashica TLR) compared to a typical DSLR or a 35mm SLR camera.

Most of the time I used/use a tripod...a heavy duty one at that...a Leitz Tiltall...after I broke a lighter duty tripod when I was using the Pentax 6 X 7 .

I find the medium formats are more the studio or portrait/ landscape type of cameras. I spend a lot of time with composition when using them...for example I don't use a Medium format while taking a picture of a fast moving bird...I use my K10D and 55-300 mm zoom for that...I can move that combo faster than say my Mamiya with it's 180 lens...quite a heavy combo.

Medium format is an interesting area of photography, but if you haven't used one before I suggest you rent one or borrow one..try it out...see if you like it..it is quite different than a DSLR.

Also it's an expensive area of photography...if you think digital SLR's are pricey..medium formats, especially the digital variety can be very expensive.

You may like medium Format..or maybe not...but as I suggested before, save yourself a bundle and rent one for awhile and click, click, click...see if you want to really have a medium format. You may have a different opinion after the 'new' wears off, if you get my drift.

Personally I find my K10D to be a great camera...does what I want and with the right natural lighting for wildlife...find it hard to beat.

Just one old guy's opinion, based on long experience.

Yes to all of the above. I treasured the results of my Mamiya 6x7 Universal Rangefinder and RB67 gear. I miss the black and white and IR darkroom results, not to mention 6x7 transparencies. However, time and technology move on and I couldn't imagine returning to darkroom days. In any case film, chemistry and paper are now toooooo expensive and digital MF financially out of the question.

I find my K20D can produce similar results at least up to 20" prints.

I am one of the Pentax FF pundits but must admit my fervor is starting to weaken. I have been in a position to compare my results with CanNik FF gear and can't see any major differences in the results. I don't shoot sport or wildlife and rarely get into extreme low light situations, ie I don't have a noise issue, although AF can be a pain in the butt. My lens kit now covers all reasonable focal lengths for both C class and FF sensors.

So maybe I need to get over the "I Want It" problem and examine what benefit FF will give me.

I had better sign off before I really start to ramble.

Take Care

David

[cloudswimmer]

I know Pentax is still unable to make a Full Frame body at this moment, nor they are willing to bear the risk.

So, now they go in another way to compete - make a high grade body with most updated features, the best possible ergonomics and compactness as well as with highest possible build quality, so that it makes itself an unique product with all those valuable differentiating characteristics in the current market. But, it is still an APS-C DSLR afterall!

So and so, what do you think if this would succeed? Image quality wise, I still not believing that any APS-C can beat those of the current Full Frame lines. And price wise, the price difference is not very big. Say, if you pay just a little bit more, even one can get the old Full Frame Canon 5D MkI which can still be bought brand new in the market for the time being. And then for a little bit more, the popular Nikon D700 is there!

All in all, Do you think that Pentax can win in the game and competition? Or, just to continue their life in the DSLR battle field with the new K-7??

Well I don't think Pentax is trying to win any game or beat the competition.I see them more as a boutique type company catering to artist.I'm not sure what type of photography you do, but I shoot and sell fine art and landscape work, mostly done with large format cameras and film.I had the old 5D and would venture to say I like the image quality better on the k20, less anti aliasing and more depth of field.In fact I like the image quality even more from multiple rowed stitched panos like these from my little fuji pocket cam.Some of us actually need everything in focus If Pentax does venture into full frame, I'll still be buying their APS sized sensors and sticking them on pano heads.

Image size 22"x24" at 300ppi Fuji F31fd


100% Crop

[deejjjaaaa]

So I would say, not counting 5D and D700, the total of all other FF combined would be much less than 1%.

why do you want to do this calculation at all excluding the most affordable digital FF cameras ? it is like calculating Nikon sales excluding D40/D40x/D60/etc and counting only D300/D700/D3/D3x

[nosnoop]

why do you want to do this calculation at all excluding the most affordable digital FF cameras ? it is like calculating Nikon sales excluding D40/D40x/D60/etc and counting only D300/D700/D3/D3x

[sigh] did you read my whole post or just the last sentence? I already gave you my estimate of 5D II and D700 sales in the sentence before! :ugh:
Basically, only the 5D II and D700 are sold in any decent number. And I am giving you an estimate of the rest.

[whatever7]

+1

Samsungian, please!

You can simply use [IMGWIDE] tag instead of [IMG];
Or in the WYSIWYG editor, click on this instead of this . Thanks! Otherwise, I have to use side scrolling for each message!

This is what I do. I have all-in-one mouse gesture installed on my firefox.
So I can use a quick gesture with the left mouse click to make an image half the size.
Otherwise it's imporssible to read any forum with oversize images.

In fact only somethingawful forum 's layout engine make the large image display properly
on small size screens, every other forum has this problem.
Alot of them don't support [imgwide] tag either.

[falconeye]

With regard to estimating the size of the FF market ...

DxO sells their software for particular combinations of lenses and bodies. So, I counted them to get a rough idea of market sizes (as I believe this is what drives them):

Pentax K10D: 7
Pentax K20D: 8
Canon 20D: 60
Canon 50D: 40
Nikon D300: 36

So, this gives a rough idea what the figures mean, all APS-C. Now for FF:

Canon 5D: 32
Canon 5D mkII: 25
Nikon D3: 19
Nikon D3X: 19
Nikon D700: 20
Sony A900: 10

So, this looks like there would be about 50% business with FF models compared with APS-C models. Assuming FF customers are 2-3x more likely to buy DxO, this leaves about 20% unit sales from an FF model compared to an APS-C model. Which should translate to the same margin, at least.

Of course, this is just number picking. But in a fascinating way