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View Poll Results: Will Pentax Succeed with the New K-7 and Strategy?
Yes 19592.86%
No 157.14%
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05-11-2009, 11:34 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
So FF is niche, plain and simple. The #'s tell us so. In a niche offering, Pentax is going for the MF 645D.



If you want a FF DSLR and it is that important to you, buy another brand.
I'm going to do a little snip of your post, if you don't mind

It doesn't make sense to me...we have people wanting ("needing! I needs it!") the FF niche camera and all of a sudden the 645 niche ABOVE the FF isn't any good.

"Trumping the competition is wrong...we have to match them!" Uhh...what?

RiceHigh is the biggest 5D fan you'll ever meet. In fact, I don't think he has any digital Pentax and I doubt the MZ-S in his sig does anything but sit on the shelf. He's made his decision...and that is to compare everything to the 5D while dumping on Pentax.

05-11-2009, 12:28 PM   #92
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Who's got a credible link to dslr global unit numbers & total sales?

I'll start this fact finding game with two links back when Pentax was not one of Hoya's other Logos:

Canon loses SLR share, as Nikon surges | Underexposed - CNET News

NEWS! - Digital Cameras, Digital Imaging, Digital Photography, Digital Scanners

Maybe someone will respond with link to sales data including everyone who makes dslrs that are delivered everywhere? Not that japan only marketshare link that was tossed about a few months back:

Total Dslr Units & Total Dslrs sales & Total full frame Dslrs sales for 2008, please?

>>>>>It will be great to see links that include P&S totals too.

I await actual dollar totals and unit numbers that are offered up for us all to read. Should be easy as several people toss out numbers here. ;^)

Anybody got some credible links for year ... 2008 ???

Last edited by Samsungian; 05-11-2009 at 01:23 PM. Reason: Added Point & Shoot data request to dslr sales totals
05-11-2009, 12:55 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
No, the analogy was not about a bad sensor. The analogy was about a key investment or a key model turning out to be a flop, and how the company could survive it. Even if Pentax has a FF camera with a kick a** sensor, it can still turn out to be a flop just like A900. The total FF market segment is just plain too small. Whatever Pentax does, it is unlikely it would be able to convert significant number of Nikon/Canon FF users. And projecting Pentax FF sales based on Nikon/Canon : Pentax sales volume from recent history would give you a very depressing figure - it would be a flop even if the sales meet the "expectation".
A 900 was destined to fail. Sony is a newcomer on DSLR market despite Minolta's legacy and CZ branded lenses. They build a very good FF camera , but they were selling it for $3K. At the same time Canon and Nikon were selling 5DII and D700 for $2600 and $2300 respectively. And on top of that both Canon and Nikon cameras were marginally better in hi ISO performance. How can it be NOT a failure?

If I am shooting Canon cropped system and want to move to FF sensor, I will look around and see what other companies will have to offer, and if there's nothing matching the price and quality of 5DII, I will stick with 5DII. Why would I want to switch to to some Sony or Pentax nonsense, if they offering more expensive cameras that are not on par with Canon.

Actually, I am not surprised, Sony is known for stunts like this.

The analogy was about a key investment or a key model turning out to be a flop, and how the company could survive it.

Sure this is possible with Pentax as well. Very possible. A lot of Pentax users who wanted FF already abandoned Pentax system. By the next Christmas more will leave.
The total FF market segment is just plain too small.
It is growing and it will continue to grow faster and faster, all the talks that it is niche market is plain BS, more and more advanced armatures are buying these cameras.

Last edited by awo425; 05-11-2009 at 03:23 PM.
05-11-2009, 02:17 PM   #94
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What happens if Canon or Nikon see this machine grab a handfull of market share and decide to release a "K-7 killer" in a few months. They seem to have the ability to put out fully developed cameras as fast as Pentax can decide to swap out black plastic with white and announce a new body color.

That is one of a thousand factors that have been heavily weighed by Hoya/Pentax. The main reason I believe the K-7 will succeed is because they do nothing of substance in a hurry. They know a lot more than any of us, and they are banking on the K-7 with their pocket books. I voted yes because Ithey did and that's the only poll with substance.

05-11-2009, 02:25 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Who's got a credible link to dslr global unit numbers & total sales?

I'll start this fact finding game with two links back when Pentax was not one of Hoya's other Logos:

Canon loses SLR share, as Nikon surges | Underexposed - CNET News

NEWS! - Digital Cameras, Digital Imaging, Digital Photography, Digital Scanners

Maybe someone will respond with link to sales data including everyone who makes dslrs that are delivered everywhere? Not that japan only marketshare link that was tossed about a few months back:

Total Dslr Units & Total Dslrs sales & Total full frame Dslrs sales for 2008, please?

>>>>>It will be great to see links that include P&S totals too.

I await actual dollar totals and unit numbers that are offered up for us all to read. Should be easy as several people toss out numbers here. ;^)

Anybody got some credible links for year ... 2008 ???
Unfortunately things like this are never easy to get. Even the real figures (such as for Nikon) are given in "units shipped". Seems straightforward enough BUT "units shipped" are not "units sold" especially if mauf do buyback's, require minimum lot sizes ect..... EVENTUALLY this may equal units sold but could cross over years....
he number I quoted were from an interview w/ a Nikon rep.. I trust the figure though again, it's units shipped most likely.
Nikon D5000 First Thoughts
Any real info is usually "for sale" only............
US Digital Cameras 2008 (Snapshots International) doi:10.1337/us080028
Apparently $300 pounds......
Your Shopping Cart - Snapdata®

Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-11-2009 at 02:35 PM.
05-11-2009, 02:27 PM   #96
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Bottom line: 1.every body here believe that pentax will remain strong
2. It does not mean that a Pentax FF is not a desire for many of us
3. Every body worried about the future of the K mount and the future of their lenses .
FF ppl wants to use their FF lenses they way they should be . DA people wants to keep their DA lenses .
4. Pentax as usual saying nothing
5. this forum remains fun and kills boring office time
05-11-2009, 03:03 PM   #97
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Jeff here's a recent canon interview concerning some dslr data

Thats a nice article on Nikon D5000.

Until somone buys IDC 2008 and reports on it we'll likely have to put tiny bits of info concerning Year 2008. Last year weeks before this point in time there were several articles quoting IDC 2007 dslr units and total camera production numbers.

Heres a recent piece concerning canon & dslrs, point & shoots:

Q&A: Canon helps usher in the video SLR era | Underexposed - CNET News


QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Unfortunately things like this are never easy to get. Even the real figures (such as for Nikon) are given in "units shipped". Seems straightforward enough BUT "units shipped" are not "units sold" especially if mauf do buyback's, require minimum lot sizes ect..... EVENTUALLY this may equal units sold but could cross over years....
he number I quoted were from an interview w/ a Nikon rep.. I trust the figure though again, it's units shipped most likely.
Nikon D5000 First Thoughts
Any real info is usually "for sale" only............
US Digital Cameras 2008 (Snapshots International) doi:10.1337/us080028
Apparently $300 pounds......
Your Shopping Cart - Snapdata®
05-11-2009, 03:13 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Thats a nice article on Nikon D5000.

Until somone buys IDC 2008 and reports on it we'll likely have to put tiny bits of info concerning Year 2008. Last year weeks before this point in time there were several articles quoting IDC 2007 dslr units and total camera production numbers.

Heres a recent piece concerning canon & dslrs, point & shoots:

Q&A: Canon helps usher in the video SLR era | Underexposed - CNET News
Video.... no need for it personally.
Anyways as to FF sometimes it's what is not said..........
Yeah, as soon as you buy one lens beyond that kit lens, the barrier to switching becomes pretty high. The overall balance between APS-C and full-frame--it's probably way less than 5 percent are full-frame.
Westfall: I couldn't break it down for you, but full-frame is growing. Cameras like the 5D and 5D Mark II have really helped out a lot, and that's just for us. The other full-frame cameras coming into the marketplace from Nikon and Sony are also making a dent.
I belive he COULD break it down for him if he WANTED to... tells me sales are low but markup is high.
OR
That doesn't necessarily mean we would avoid a full-frame sensor just to cut the cost, but on the other hand we can't really say that a low-cost full-frame camera is going to be something that we're definitely going to pursue. We generally take it as it comes to see if we can find a spot in the market for the lower-priced full-frames.
Tells me there NOT going to sell them cheaply (or is anyone else for that matter)

05-11-2009, 03:23 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
A 900 was destined to fail.....How can it be NOT a failure?
On hindsight, it is always easy to point fingers. Not so easy the other way round.

For a Pentax FF, the same can apply. If you project the sales potential for a Pentax FF based on market share of recent years, then Pentax FF would also be destined to be a failure too!

We want it to beat the competition, and yet we want it to be the most affordable. It could be the same dilemma Sony was facing. If you price it high enough to have a decent profit margin, it won't sell. If you price it low enough to be the best bargain, you could be hardly making any money at all.
05-11-2009, 03:27 PM   #100
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here's another recent dslr article to pull some unit numbers off of

Hopefully cnet will breifly discus 2008 dslr data from IDC soon. In the meantime:

Study: Camera market slump to hit SLRs, too | Underexposed - CNET News




QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Video.... no need for it personally.
Anyways as to FF sometimes it's what is not said..........
Yeah, as soon as you buy one lens beyond that kit lens, the barrier to switching becomes pretty high. The overall balance between APS-C and full-frame--it's probably way less than 5 percent are full-frame.
Westfall: I couldn't break it down for you, but full-frame is growing. Cameras like the 5D and 5D Mark II have really helped out a lot, and that's just for us. The other full-frame cameras coming into the marketplace from Nikon and Sony are also making a dent.
I belive he COULD break it down for him if he WANTED to... tells me sales are low but markup is high.
OR
That doesn't necessarily mean we would avoid a full-frame sensor just to cut the cost, but on the other hand we can't really say that a low-cost full-frame camera is going to be something that we're definitely going to pursue. We generally take it as it comes to see if we can find a spot in the market for the lower-priced full-frames.
Tells me there NOT going to sell them cheaply (or is anyone else for that matter)
05-11-2009, 03:45 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
On hindsight, it is always easy to point fingers. Not so easy the other way round.

For a Pentax FF, the same can apply. If you project the sales potential for a Pentax FF based on market share of recent years, then Pentax FF would also be destined to be a failure too!

We want it to beat the competition, and yet we want it to be the most affordable. It could be the same dilemma Sony was facing. If you price it high enough to have a decent profit margin, it won't sell. If you price it low enough to be the best bargain, you could be hardly making any money at all.
Rumor has it Sony WAS/IS losing money on FF sales.
05-11-2009, 04:11 PM   #102
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Pentax will make an FF camera when they think it is economically viable to do so. That day will come; the K-mount system is an FF system.
05-11-2009, 05:02 PM   #103
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What is full frame?

Full of what?
I just hope the new senser is square. Never could figure out why a completely new medium (digital) has to be shaped like film was?! Film format shapes were/are just optimized to get the most out of diffrent film sizes.

But square is the Best! Don't have to turn the camera on it's side (and all the nonsense that goes with that) just to shoot a portrait!

Packrat
05-11-2009, 05:02 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by ryan s Quote
I'm going to do a little snip of your post, if you don't mind

It doesn't make sense to me...we have people wanting ("needing! I needs it!") the FF niche camera and all of a sudden the 645 niche ABOVE the FF isn't any good.

"Trumping the competition is wrong...we have to match them!" Uhh...what?

RiceHigh is the biggest 5D fan you'll ever meet. In fact, I don't think he has any digital Pentax and I doubt the MZ-S in his sig does anything but sit on the shelf. He's made his decision...and that is to compare everything to the 5D while dumping on Pentax.
The Japan data:

“Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear

IDC has a report out which I glanced at in the corporate library online (need a paid sub). Says pretty much the same thing. FF DSLR segment will grow, but costs and form factor will limit the consumer reach.

Basic outcome:

1) APS-C is a design you can build a business model on. All the brands are most heavily invested in APS-C.

2) FF (D3X, A900, D700, 5DMk2, E3) are expensive and niche. IN fact, their sales volumes are so low they don't even show up on sales volume charts!
05-11-2009, 05:05 PM   #105
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Why is cinema film actually 16:9?

Basically, we "see" better horizontally than vertically. Our eyes gather more data quicker (old survival system from evolving on the savannah and steppe)looking side-to-side than up-and-down.

I disagree that square is best. True, I crop square a lot, but I understand the deeper brain chemistry here, and what we have now as a standard makes more sense.

QuoteOriginally posted by Packrat Quote
Full of what?
I just hope the new senser is square. Never could figure out why a completely new medium (digital) has to be shaped like film was?! Film format shapes were/are just optimized to get the most out of diffrent film sizes.

But square is the Best! Don't have to turn the camera on it's side (and all the nonsense that goes with that) just to shoot a portrait!

Packrat
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