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View Poll Results: Will Pentax Succeed with the New K-7 and Strategy?
Yes 19592.86%
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05-11-2009, 05:10 PM   #106
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Square

Square uses the image circle of the lens to better advantage!

Packrat

05-11-2009, 05:27 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The Japan data:

“Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear

IDC has a report out which I glanced at in the corporate library online (need a paid sub). Says pretty much the same thing. FF DSLR segment will grow, but costs and form factor will limit the consumer reach.

Basic outcome:

1) APS-C is a design you can build a business model on. All the brands are most heavily invested in APS-C.

2) FF (D3X, A900, D700, 5DMk2, E3) are expensive and niche. IN fact, their sales volumes are so low they don't even show up on sales volume charts!
Yep and the "uber -selling" Canon 5d doesn't chart.... Yea so lets build a FF.... best to just do a MF.. oh wait.. that's what's happening..
69% of the market on those last 7 cameras..
(Sorrry, some people just need pretty pictures to spell it out)

“Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear

Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-11-2009 at 05:34 PM.
05-11-2009, 05:42 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Packrat Quote
Square uses the image circle of the lens to better advantage!
Well, sort of. It gets more corners, but you lose perfectly good image circle on the edges. It's not as efficient in terms of absolute coverage area, but maybe those edges are what you wanted to get.

You could of course make the square sensor big enough to always badly vignette in the corners maybe even leaving the extreme sensors empty of sensors (maybe even with a CMOS design you could put other electronics on the chip there).
05-11-2009, 06:05 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Well, sort of. It gets more corners, but you lose perfectly good image circle on the edges. It's not as efficient in terms of absolute coverage area, but maybe those edges are what you wanted to get.

You could of course make the square sensor big enough to always badly vignette in the corners — maybe even leaving the extreme sensors empty of sensors (maybe even with a CMOS design you could put other electronics on the chip there).
You could probably get 16% more area coverage w/ a 21mm square (1.2 to 2.6mm shorter on one side, 6.2-5.3mm longer on the other side) , have as much vignetting (actually less) and not have to rotate for portraits... all theory based on a 21mm square sensor and image circle.
It is more efficient in absolute coverage but most would probably crop it out anyways. Unfortunately an extremely hard sell though.

05-11-2009, 06:15 PM   #110
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Square

I have always hated the 3:2 35mm format! Too panoramic.

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05-11-2009, 06:38 PM   #111
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Overall sales charts can be deceiving. A less expensive camera may sell more units, but will produce a smaller profit margin for the manufacturer. Usually, the more expensive the item, the larger profit margin that is programmed into the final selling price. We need to know profit margins or average number of units sold versus profits.
05-11-2009, 06:39 PM   #112
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well for me full frame dosent make sence. Im never going to get the money to pay for a full frame and the lenses are out ragesly priced for good lenses. Also the weatherproofing really looks good canon and nikon cant even compeat at there price
05-11-2009, 07:02 PM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
Great example, so Contax got bad FF sensor from Kodak proceeded with production of the camera and went out of business, and that was 9 years ago. What does it have to do with today's technology? It's 2009, there are plenty of new tech available and at least 2 companies are making FF sensors that kick a**.
AAAHHH!!! Why did you guys have to bring up Contax, the company that left me high and dry? The G2 was, and remains, my all time favorite camera with my all time favorite set of lenses. When Kyocera folded the Contax marque and ended all hope of a line of digital G cameras, I decided to cast my lot with Pentax and the K10D. I look back my Contax days with great fondness and some sorrow for what might have been. Even though I'm getting better images with the K10D, it isn't nearly as much fun to use.

Off topic, I know.

Rob

05-11-2009, 07:09 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
Overall sales charts can be deceiving. A less expensive camera may sell more units, but will produce a smaller profit margin for the manufacturer. Usually, the more expensive the item, the larger profit margin that is programmed into the final selling price. We need to know profit margins or average number of units sold versus profits.
That's why I quoted the 6% margins unit-by-unit over the unit sales. FF are more profitable with higher margins. You're paying for that extra sensor, and paying a premium.

But a niche market has zero elasticity. Should demand fall, R&D recoup is almost a goner. About the only things you can leverage are a distribution system, and limited marketing via pros (largely a dead issue these days where the prosumer or amateur is considered as versed as many a pro).

You need deep pockets to play niche

Last edited by Aristophanes; 05-11-2009 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Clarify and typo
05-11-2009, 07:14 PM   #115
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Pentax did the right thing by not bringing out Pentax MZ-D nine years ago. Phillips of the Netherlands was responsible for the full frame sensor that was going to be used. The sensor was a real dog, full of problems. Unfortunately, Kyocera killed Contax, Yashica and Tomioka shortly after the Contax N debacle. I refuse to buy Kyocera products today because of this. Times and technology have changed. I look forward to Pentax producing a Full Frame DSLR.
05-11-2009, 07:15 PM   #116
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Where is the K20D?
QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Yep and the "uber -selling" Canon 5d doesn't chart....
05-11-2009, 07:21 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote

You need deep pockets to play niche
It depends on your definition of a niche market, Subaru was mentioned earlier. Subaru is a small player in the auto industry but yet one of the most profitable. When Pentax can reasonably bring out a FF camera I believe they will. Pentax also has two 800lb gorillas in their corner, Hoya Optical and Samsung Electronics.
05-11-2009, 07:47 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
Where is the K20D?
Not really a comprehensive chart...no 5D either...

Jeff found it! It was here somewhere after all. Rejoice with me, I'm not going insane

Anyone else surprised by the Sony A200/350 figures? Whoa...
05-11-2009, 07:55 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
It depends on your definition of a niche market, Subaru was mentioned earlier. Subaru is a small player in the auto industry but yet one of the most profitable. When Pentax can reasonably bring out a FF camera I believe they will. Pentax also has two 800lb gorillas in their corner, Hoya Optical and Samsung Electronics.
The latter may be more of a competitor in the long run than a partner.

Pentax will bring out FF when there is a large enough market defined by other brands, and the profits are not determined by bodies but by sales of lens systems.

As for Subaru, it plays in the full market, not a niche. There is a difference between being a small player in a large market, and a small player in a small market. If all Subaru made was 3-wheeled cars, then it would be a niche.
05-11-2009, 07:56 PM   #120
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QuoteQuote:
I just hope the new senser is square. Never could figure out why a completely new medium (digital) has to be shaped like film was?! Film format shapes were/are just optimized to get the most out of diffrent film sizes.

But square is the Best! Don't have to turn the camera on it's side (and all the nonsense that goes with that) just to shoot a portrait!
There are/have been square format film cameras. I think rectangular format film is used more because people like rectangular form factor images more than square, not because of the difference in effective film usage rate.

It's not just a larger sensor that one needs to build a square format DSLR camera. The mirror, penta(prism|mirror) and viewfinder have to be larger as well. For me, the increase in camera size and weight alone would make that design unattractive.

Plus, you need a more expensive actuating mechanism to move that (higher mass) mirror at an acceptable speed. And if you use the entire square image, you need higher processing power to get the data off the sensor, processed and saved.

In my view, the size, weight and power requirements are a very poor tradoff to rotating the camera when I want portrait orientation.
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