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View Poll Results: Will Pentax Succeed with the New K-7 and Strategy?
Yes 19592.86%
No 157.14%
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05-11-2009, 07:59 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Packrat Quote
Square uses the image circle of the lens to better advantage!

Packrat
Our iris, cornea, and retina are (mostly) round in what we would roughly call the focal plane. But yet we "see" better (take in more information accurately) side-to-side than top-to-bottom. So for our human lens or a manufactured lens, what counts is the how the brain interprets the data.

05-11-2009, 08:17 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Our iris, cornea, and retina are (mostly) round in what we would roughly call the focal plane. But yet we "see" better (take in more information accurately) side-to-side than top-to-bottom. So for our human lens or a manufactured lens, what counts is the how the brain interprets the data.
The reason movies after 1958, HDTV (and billboards) are approximately 16:9 (Widescreen format) H:W dimensionally is - that is the optimal dimensional relationship for human binocular vision to process information.

16:9 is 2.25:2.66 times 36:24 - almost a perfect dimensional match.
05-11-2009, 08:24 PM   #123
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So slashgear says D700 went to more buyers in Japan than K20D

I'd like to see global numbers, not sure why Japan only sales represents the planet.

Anyways, I wonder why more Japanese market consumers bought D700 than K20D?

Lets not forget D700 was offered for half as many months in 2008 too?

I'd guess D700 was at least 3 times as expensive in Japan and issued some 6 months after K20D launch on Jan 23 2008:

Nikon D700 DSLR official: 12.1MP, 51-point autofocus, EXPEED processor - SlashGear



QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
Where is the K20D?
05-11-2009, 08:26 PM   #124
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I dunno...I sometimes think what drives the market and R + D.... are consumer techies who spend a lot of time looking for the latest feature...which may or may not improve their photography, but they like to have it and they promote it as essential to produce worthy photographs.

I think sometimes of some of the best photographers the world has known....Eisenstadt, Cartier-Bresson....for example...I don't know how they did so well and became renowned for their photography when all they used for the most part were plain-jane basic Leica bodies, not even a in -camera light meter for the most part and generally a standard 50mm lens...

How did they do it ??



I rarely blow up any photo beyond 8 X 10 and the ones I have with my K10D , I must say are very impressive to me and others who view them.

I guess my K10D is obsolete...and also is not a FF...but boy some of those pix it takes...with my able guidance ...I must say are in a word...tremendous.

I take my time, I work with natural light as best I can, I choose early morning and end of the day to wring out the best the Sun can offer and even after 40 + years of photography...I'm still learning.

Pentax lenses have always been excellent...to the point that I bought Takumar and Pentax....with no exceptions since the early '70's. I learned my lesson with a couple of 'dud' non Pentax lenses years ago.

I'm very impressed with my 55-300 Zoom and 16-45 Zoom....the glass is great and I've got Leitz -35 mm and medium format lenses.

Reading all this 'back and forth' reminds me of car technuts...who constantly 'bench race' about whether a small block Ford V8 has more potential power than a small block Chevy V8 and vice-versa.

It seems like there is way too much 'bench racing' going on in the camera community just like the automotive enthusiast community.

Rather than extolling the virtues of the latest camera equipment...I'd rather be out in the field...clicking away.

05-11-2009, 08:26 PM   #125
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Heres the chart from previous page

Chart shows 6 month sales of D700 placed above 11 month K20D sales in Japan.

Indeed, where is K20D?

Heck G1 made the list & it wasn't available until October 2008 & it too beat out 11 months of K20D sales...


QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Yep and the "uber -selling" Canon 5d doesn't chart.... Yea so lets build a FF.... best to just do a MF.. oh wait.. that's what's happening..
69% of the market on those last 7 cameras..
(Sorrry, some people just need pretty pictures to spell it out)

“Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear

Last edited by Samsungian; 05-11-2009 at 08:33 PM.
05-11-2009, 08:35 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Chart has 6 month sales D700 sales above 11 month K20D sales in Japan.
so if we assume sales can be maintained (new cameras always spike first few months) what chance does Pentax have w/ FF when they can't break into double digit sales w/ APS-C???
Anyways there strategy (?) seems valid to me, but then I am not interested in FF from anyone in particular. Not even crazy about the K200 we use at work vs the ist-D. K200 is clunky in comparison, as would be any FF especially w/ anti-shake.
I admit personal bias.
05-11-2009, 08:54 PM   #127
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I'm perfectly fine with pentax passing up the full frame market (((too)))

Last year I bought full frames elsewhere so Pentax offering full frame platforms really doesn't matter to me either. But in pentax world every 10th thread is about full frames so its constantly a topic for chat.

I still want to see links to 2008 market share for dslrs: aps-c & full frame in global marketplace. Hopefully the numbers will publish for free soon and we can put a % on full frame dslr sales vs aps-c. Both total money and total units for 2008.

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
so if we assume sales can be maintained (new cameras always spike first few months) what chance does Pentax have w/ FF when they can't break into double digit sales w/ APS-C???
Anyways there strategy (?) seems valid to me, but then I am not interested in FF from anyone in particular. Not even crazy about the K200 we use at work vs the ist-D. K200 is clunky in comparison, as would be any FF especially w/ anti-shake.
I admit personal bias.
05-12-2009, 02:17 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Heres the chart from previous page

Chart shows 6 month sales of D700 placed above 11 month K20D sales in Japan.

Indeed, where is K20D?
I think I analyzed the methodological flaws of this old chart before. I don't remember the link but got a lot of positive replies from fellow forum members.

You observed yourself that the chart is flawed ("where is K20D"). Still, you posted it.

Main problem with the chart is that its base material are sales figures of actual retail offers, i.e., every bundle, color and lens accounts for another product. And then they cut at the top 20 or so. Problem with that is that almost all of Pentax offerings come after the cut. The big two have enough bundle offerings to push eveything else off the top twenty bundles. It actually is a miracle that Pentax was listed at all.

05-12-2009, 05:44 AM   #129
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Not my chart, I'd like to see 2008 totals from everywhere

I recall this chart was de-bunked. Thats why earlier in the thread I asked for units numbers from everywhere, not just Japan.

Lets face it when someone here says full frame sales are 1% 2% 4% 10% they just picking a number, & not suppling a link. Infact 2008 data has not been released for free yet. 2007 data had canon selling two full frame and a few months of nikon selling one full frame at $5,000 launch. 2008 will have Nikon selling 2 full frames & canon selling 3.

When I visit other brand forums ,inspite of being told here that full frame sales are low, dozens upon dozens of people own either 5D, 5DII, D3, D700. I'd guess more people own a full frame dslr than total number of people who own K20D.

So it goes, in another week they'll be another K Mount full frame thread, and in another week another one and so on...


>>>>>>>It just dawned on me, with all the threads here discussing full frame & full frame K Mount & ABOUT ZERO threads chatting about medium format I wonder how making & offering a medium format digital 645D will work out for Pentax?



QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I think I analyzed the methodological flaws of this old chart before. I don't remember the link but got a lot of positive replies from fellow forum members.

You observed yourself that the chart is flawed ("where is K20D"). Still, you posted it.

Main problem with the chart is that its base material are sales figures of actual retail offers, i.e., every bundle, color and lens accounts for another product. And then they cut at the top 20 or so. Problem with that is that almost all of Pentax offerings come after the cut. The big two have enough bundle offerings to push eveything else off the top twenty bundles. It actually is a miracle that Pentax was listed at all.

Last edited by Samsungian; 05-12-2009 at 06:01 AM. Reason: Added one last sentence
05-12-2009, 06:35 AM   #130
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Interesting,

seems like much ado about nothing
But even if camera sale numbers would be known, what would it tell about the earnings of a company? How many K-m Pentax had to sell to make the break even? How many K20D? How many D3x and how many A900 (well, there are claims Sony is even supporting every single sold unit)...

And, at least as important: how many lenses per camera unit are sold?
Talking about cameras like K-m/K200D for around 400€ not mentioning the sold units of lenses that cost 3-times as much may be uncomplete.

Rumours on other fora have said, that nikon f.e. is selling the least lenses per cam, something around 1,5. Maybe Google can help here. I think this adds a very important point to the calculation.

Last edited by MMVIII; 05-12-2009 at 10:45 AM. Reason: spelling, uhm
05-12-2009, 06:43 AM   #131
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When I look at the situation, I think that one of the biggest dangers for Pentax would be to release an under-spec ed, over priced full frame camera. Can anyone imagine the complaints about "poor auto focus," "small buffer size," and "high iso noise" if Pentax released a camera in this range that didn't measure up to the Nikon/Canon offerings already out there.

The bar is set where it is at and will only get higher. By definition, at this point, Full Frame equals "professional grade," whatever that means and yet, I doubt if Pentax can actually release a full frame offering in the price range they would need to hit in order to get photographers even to look at it.

And that's not even talking about the lenses, or the lack thereof...
05-12-2009, 07:11 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
>>>>>>>It just dawned on me, with all the threads here discussing full frame & full frame K Mount & ABOUT ZERO threads chatting about medium format I wonder how making & offering a medium format digital 645D will work out for Pentax?
The members of this forum by and large are not the target market for 645D. Pentax has already acknowledged that they don't expect a big return on investment for such a high end pro-only camera. I suspect that their plan with the 645D is to begin to make in-roads in the secondary support network that fuels the cameras chosen by pros. Full frame cameras are affordable enough that pros will own a few, but by and large they will rent a lot of their medium format gear. If the 645D makes a dent in the rental market, and Pentax starts showing up on the high-end radar again, we are probably a lot more likely to see a full frame body as well.

Then again, me trying to analyze the Pentax medium format strategy is a bit of a stretch. I've never pulled the trigger on a medium format camera in my life.
05-12-2009, 07:37 AM   #133
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This is closest I've come to owning medium format:

Me neither, though I've been shopping for a couple specific Pentax medium format lenses to use on my 5D.

The 645 and 6x7 glass I've handled locally,

with this set up,

has shown me Pentax image quality via medium format glass is exceptional.

Thesedays one does not have to wait for Pentax

to provide a medium format dslr to use this glass via a digital camera.

Albeit via 5D its more cropped than the crop format 645D sensor will spec.

















QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
The members of this forum by and large are not the target market for 645D. Pentax has already acknowledged that they don't expect a big return on investment for such a high end pro-only camera. I suspect that their plan with the 645D is to begin to make in-roads in the secondary support network that fuels the cameras chosen by pros. Full frame cameras are affordable enough that pros will own a few, but by and large they will rent a lot of their medium format gear. If the 645D makes a dent in the rental market, and Pentax starts showing up on the high-end radar again, we are probably a lot more likely to see a full frame body as well.

Then again, me trying to analyze the Pentax medium format strategy is a bit of a stretch. I've never pulled the trigger on a medium format camera in my life.

Last edited by Samsungian; 05-12-2009 at 04:51 PM.
05-12-2009, 11:18 AM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
When I visit other brand forums ,inspite of being told here that full frame sales are low, dozens upon dozens of people own either 5D, 5DII, D3, D700. I'd guess more people own a full frame dslr than total number of people who own K20D.
Ok...there are forums for pretty much everything one could have as a hobby or profession. The people who are regular visitors to a forum are more serious about that topic than the people who do research/ask questions, then leave. So there's more propensity on a forum to cater to those with "more stuff...better stuff...more modified...etc"

Like my one car forum...it's just for 98-02 Honda Accords. There are a few people with bone stock cars but more have something else done to them like suspension, rims, engine swaps, turbos, etc.

Just judging by that forum, I'd say there are tons and tons of modified 6th gen Accords around. In reality, I've seen about 3 versus how many stock cars...considering Honda sold like 600,000 vehicles per year, every year? There are more out in SoCal...but what's the modified to stock ratio?

Once again...just like the dude who was judging the entire market by what he saw in Manhattan...there's more to it than just what you see...

Plus, it's clear that the K20D is your wife's for the most part, and you have your "man toys"...and dudes like to hang out on the internet and talk shop.
05-12-2009, 12:09 PM   #135
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Yep I bought a K20D for my wife...

But I use it too. I've considered buying one for myself,

as I usually buy cameras in pairs but I've got some items I'll buy first.

I put the wife into Pentax 7 years ago when she wanted to persue photography too.

We both shoot, unlike most couples in persuing images, you know:

Where one person waits & waits & waits while the other has a great time.

I buy her new gear or great used gear, not my discarded hand me downs.

She has her own 300mm 2.8 in Pentax K-A mount. I use it too.

Being that its an Adaptall2 lens it works fine on my 5D & D700 also.

Its nice to have 2 perspectives at same locations.

Its so popular to merge car info into camera info and compare the two.

I've spoken of our Turbo 5spd Subaru here before, but not how it relates to cameras:

Its insanely sweet ride, easily best car I've bought new or used. It is not a camera. Its a car.

Below is one of the photography forums I visit.

Good Luck finding armwresting debates over which is better:

Full frame or apc-c or aps-h or...

Or debates over gear that does not exist, when so much great gear already exists & has for a couple decades.

Many people there own many brands at once. Alot of Ex Pentax Medium format shooters there.

They "MOVED ON", cash'd out of Pentax gear years ago & I read full frame makes them good money instead of 645, 6x7.

Cameras are tools to help you achieve your vision.

If you got the money and pentax won't make you a full frame

should you just sit another decade and wait cause its either pentax or nothing?

It's been quite popular to cannibalize K Mount green star lenses to use on eos full frame.

You'll find these Pentax lens cannibalizers in "Alternative Gear & Lenses"

No one argues Pentax didn't make great lenses, they just won't make full frame.

Ned said so. Interviews say so.

Good Luck finding a dedicated Pentax area like their Canon & Nikon forums.

There's alot of working pros on fredmiranda. Lots of great info:

FM Forums

Last edited by Samsungian; 05-12-2009 at 12:17 PM.
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