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05-23-2009, 06:33 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
No, and it was a fiddle if you pressed the wrong one. I actually quite liked the function button implementation because it made focus point switching foolproof, but there you go. I never missed having direct access to WB and shooting mode and never changed image parameters.
Sorry, I think it's that fiddle expression that lost me. Is this what happens:

1. If you do not press the Ok button the default controls are active?

2. If you press the Ok button (and until you press it again) the AF point adjustment is active?

05-24-2009, 01:30 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Why should I be explaining Pentax's actions?
Because, if I got you right, you are the one claiming that their business model is different to SoCaNikolympus.

QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
...without replying to the substance of my post.
I tried to reply to the substance of your post. Not sure I can do it any better.


QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Apparently you think Pentax should not support photographers using manual lenses, right?
No, not at all. Have you read the "The Three Great Lens Mysteries" post in which I suggest ways of improving the support for manual lenses? I also (in this thread) wrote "I'd love to see a model that has an aperture coupler". I do want Pentax to support manual lenses. But, I guess there are business considerations (the need to sell new lenses) that make it the better business decision to not support manual lenses as well as it might be possible. As much I'd like to have every company act according to what's best for the customer and the environment (you don't want to invest in any company I may run, because that's what I'd do and probably go bankrupt in the process), I don't fault Pentax for having an eye on their lens sales as well as their camera sales.

QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Because I was wondering why they didn't uncripple the mount and you said it made good business sense not to.
In the "Dear Pentax" thread I suggested that Pentax should offer a camera with an uncrippled mount. I suggested that they could even overcharge on this one and thus may even lower the price on the crippled sister model. I'd like to see them doing this, if only to reward their loyal fan base. But I also suspect it wouldn't make much business sense for them.
  1. Mechanical things like an aperture coupler are more costly to produce than electronics or software. The number of manual enthusiasts may not suffice to regain the costs.
  2. If the only difference between shooting old lenses and modern lenses is AF, many will find the decision easy to make based on price (so much lower for old lenses).
Maybe I'm wrong.


QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Is this what happens:
The "OK" button toggles two modes of the camera.

In one mode, the direction buttons are AF point selectors.
In the other mode, the direction buttons provide direct access to function like WB (just as before without the need to press "Fn" before).

The camera mode persists even during power cycles. I think that is what you have described as well. Hope that helps.
05-24-2009, 04:23 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Have you read the "The Three Great Lens Mysteries" post in which I suggest ways of improving the support for manual lenses?
I will read this now. It seems we agree more than we disagree. As usual it is a matter of tone that has put each of us at loggerheads. Ah, the internet!

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The "OK" button toggles two modes of the camera.
OK, that is cool. So it can be basically left on the same default as the K20D, where the directions control the AF point. I presume in that case if one switches off manual AF selection, the buttons do nothing?

I find accidental button presses to be a pain on the K20D. The K-7 has done nothing to change this. The best solution is to redesign the physical aspect of the buttons by insetting them in a protective flange. There are a lot of ergonomic enhancements still to be made on these bodies. Shifting buttons around from model to model seems rather arbitrary, and only makes inter-operation between camera models difficult.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I don't fault Pentax for having an eye on their lens sales as well as their camera sales.
Me neither. I have already stated my belief that the more compatible the body the more photographers will choose Pentax in the first place, thus building a larger market for lenses as well as future bodies. But you disagreed.
05-24-2009, 07:37 AM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Sorry, I think it's that fiddle expression that lost me. Is this what happens:

1. If you do not press the Ok button the default controls are active?

2. If you press the Ok button (and until you press it again) the AF point adjustment is active?
Correct - at least on Firmware 0.2.

However with gloves on this would be almost impossible!! I kept pressing the wrong one and I didnt even have gloves on.

05-24-2009, 07:42 AM   #140
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My K-7 evaluation is now available. I trust people will not view this as "bashing" but rather constructive criticism.
05-24-2009, 08:48 AM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
My K-7 evaluation is now available. I trust people will not view this as "bashing" but rather constructive criticism.
You got the title wrong a few days ago you thought this is a "me too camera" K7, the "me too" camera... - Photo.net Pentax Forum


1) You never saw it, never touch it you just regurgitate whatever was written a hundred times on various fora and countless blogs. No harm done I guess you have a lot of spare time!
2) You already said you have no money to buy it so all this pseudo-philosophycally b.s. about finding esoteric defects even before the first reviews and without seeing the damn thing could be the byproduct of your mind having difficulties facing the reality above . It's no problem to ask even for M42 mount (I even have couple such lenses) but I doubt this will ever happen. Hence a design flaw and a bad, bad Hoya that doesn't cater for its niche market and loyal users!
3) I loved this part:

QuoteQuote:
One very large proviso before you read the following critique. Since Pentax did not deem it necessary to give me a K-7 ahead of the official release, I am working from literature found online. My opinions might well change once more details are known or when I get my hands on the actual item.
let me translate:

QuoteQuote:
I never saw the damn thing since Pentax UNLIKE ME obviously doesn't think that my blog, my opinions or my self inflated ego is of any relevance. You can find the same things wrote on countless other blogs and sites with the difference that most of them actually had a beta camera. My opinions might well change if the future will show me a ridiculous basher of a very good camera. But I will try to be critical only if this means to differentiate myself (the ARTIST) from the herd of "gadget-crazy" average users plain happy that Pentax has a very nice camera on the market and things look good for the brand.
Radu
05-24-2009, 10:38 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
My K-7 evaluation is now available. I trust people will not view this as "bashing" but rather constructive criticism.
Hi Robin,

I've read your evaluation thru to the end.

I see what you are about to say here and I would say, I don't disagree. It should always be a good thing to counteract a hype. But nevertheless, I didn't like it. These are the points which have been bothering me while reading it:
  • You blog your evaluation at a moment where multiple good reports from users who have actually used a K-7 become public. Why should anybody do this?
  • You dismiss features which were requested by a large number of people, incl.: magnesium alloy body, 100% coverage, AA batteries in the grip, CA in firmware, correct WB, correct AF in tungsten.
  • Your favourite feature (quieter shutter) comes least and last. Highly unlikely in a neutral report.
  • Cold-resistance is not understood. There are mil-specs for stuff like this. It means, you can trust it works at -10C and probably will work at much lower temperatures. This feature did not always exist!
  • Ultrasonic dust removal is an entirely different beast than sensor shake dust removal. The latter was a constant point of critics with Pentax. Resolved now.
  • The K20D SD compartment latch was criticised by many reviewers. I like it as you do. If you want to critisize something, why not the missing bracketing button?
  • K-7 is smaller. Volume is not W x H x D. Buy a K-7 and drop it into a water bucket. Then remove and drop a K20D. See how much more water is displaced
    Point is: K-7 is smaller but has a larger grip so it doesn't actually feel smaller.

So, in summary, you say that the K-7 isn't much of an improvement over a K20D. But you say it in a way where no camera would be much of an improvement ...

While this may be true for you or me (because, you the photographer, not the camera is the limiting factor) it may not be true for other, more experienced photographers.
05-24-2009, 11:12 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
BASH as in Bourne Again Shell?

...

$ exit
Great idea! Would be nice to control the K-7 from bash. Script shot sequences, etc.

So let me be the first (second?) to BASH the lack of a BASH interface, DVI output and standard USB keyboard port. Emacs would be great too.



05-24-2009, 11:41 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by wowtip Quote
Great idea! Would be nice to control the K-7 from bash.
Ask nanok. There seems to be a pkremote open source project on sourceforge.
05-24-2009, 03:24 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
My K-7 evaluation is now available.
To falconeye's excellent reply I'd like to add:
You write:
QuoteQuote:
Loaded with a battery and SD card we have to carry 754g instead of 802g, a negligible savings of 48g.
That's a ~6% saving. That's not to be sniffed at. And the camera is indeed smaller. I wouldn't want it to become any smaller.

QuoteQuote:
though there is little disadvantage to having slightly less than full coverage.
Your milage obviously varies. To me anything less than full coverage is plain wrong. I'm very picky about what is in the frame and don't want to crop later on in order to get what I saw.

QuoteQuote:
I am glad, however, that there is no arbitrary increase in megapixels just to pump the numbers.
As long as the technology supports it well, I don't see what is wrong with more MP. There will be more "per-pixel-noise" but (technology permitting) there won't be higher "image noise" (it will only be more fine-grained). Higher MP give more cropping potential, which I always welcome. Beats most teleconverters and can turn a mediocre shot into a brilliant one.

QuoteQuote:
I've never needed more than +/-2
I did.

QuoteQuote:
The SAFOX VIII processing engine has been upgraded to SAFOX VIII+. Er, great, I guess.
Not very informative, is it? Many have reported the AF to be considerably improved (K-7 and AF performance, Initial Impressions of the Pentax K7, I have tried the K-7). While it remains to be seen whether these impressions withstand future reality checks, I don't see the point (humour) in your remark.

QuoteQuote:
Since this only works in JPG mode it is useless to a serious photographer.
That's an exaggeration. Don't tell me Ken Rockwell isn't a serious photography. He earns money with photography...

QuoteQuote:
Two new white balance modes and new image processing options.
Whatever. I shoot RAW.
Many people don't and to them the improved WB under incandescent light is a big plus.

Overall, I found your evaluation to be balanced, albeit written from a very personal perspective that obviously doesn't apply to everyone.

Like falconeye, I believe that counteracting hype is good, but in this case I make an exception. I like Pentax and would hate to see it disappear. I'd like them to grow and have more degrees of freedom to operate. That's why I'm happy with a lot of buzz and public awareness around the K-7. Hopefully the excitement will spill over to people who don't own a Pentax yet.

Last edited by Class A; 05-24-2009 at 03:32 PM.
05-24-2009, 03:28 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
My K-7 evaluation is now available. I trust people will not view this as "bashing" but rather constructive criticism.
Constructive criticism is the quintessential oxymoron!
05-24-2009, 03:52 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I've read your evaluation thru to the end.
First, thank you for this.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
You blog your evaluation at a moment where multiple good reports from users who have actually used a K-7 become public. Why should anybody do this?
I don't get you. I stated clearly the limitations of my evaluation. Nothing I did was dishonest or misleading.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
You dismiss features which were requested by a large number of people, incl.: magnesium alloy body, 100% coverage, AA batteries in the grip, CA in firmware, correct WB, correct AF in tungsten.
I don't care for anything that effects JPG since I shoot RAW. I don't use a grip. I stated this very clearly. Again, where is the problem?

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Your favourite feature (quieter shutter) comes least and last. Highly unlikely in a neutral report.
I thought I was trying to end on a positive note, since overall I am very positive about Pentax. I am sorry you choose to read something underhanded in this.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Cold-resistance is not understood. There are mil-specs for stuff like this. It means, you can trust it works at -10C and probably will work at much lower temperatures. This feature did not always exist!
So, you want something that works in colder temperatures than -30C and outer space, like previous models did. Funny, I don't.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Ultrasonic dust removal is an entirely different beast than sensor shake dust removal. The latter was a constant point of critics with Pentax. Resolved now.
Sorry, I have read thousands of posts and no-one has ever said the dust removal sucked. And, as I again stated, very clearly, I have not had to clean a sensor in 6 months. If it's now better than perfect why should I care?

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The K20D SD compartment latch was criticised by many reviewers. I like it as you do. If you want to critisize something, why not the missing bracketing button?
My next article will deal with interface issues, as I stated.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
K-7 is smaller. Volume is not W x H x D. Buy a K-7 and drop it into a water bucket. Then remove and drop a K20D. See how much more water is displaced
I'd rather not, so instead I estimated. But since I did the same for both cameras the bias is more or less equal. I might change my mind when I get my hands on a camera. Again (are you tired of this yet?) I stated this clearly.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
So, in summary, you say that the K-7 isn't much of an improvement over a K20D. But you say it in a way where no camera would be much of an improvement
I actually sympathise with this point of view. I do like some of the enhancements, even those I will not use. But some are hype and some are useless. And some have been there for some time. I think it important to point these out.
05-24-2009, 03:59 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
That's a ~6% saving. That's not to be sniffed at. And the camera is indeed smaller. I wouldn't want it to become any smaller.
I do. I want a camera as small as Pentax cameras used to be.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I don't see the point (humour) in your remark.
The point is I cannot evaluate the auto-focus yet. So I cannot go rah! rah! rah! improved focus! Whoopee! Like some people who also have not used the camera.


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Don't tell me Ken Rockwell isn't a serious photography. He earns money with photography...
KR is a jackass. I don't care what money he earns. Earning money is easy. Having principles and knowing something about the world is difficult. You must really be desperate to invoke KR!

Not using RAW mode is like burning your negatives.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Overall, I found your evaluation to be balanced, albeit written from a very personal perspective that obviously doesn't apply to everyone.
Well, of course. I made this amply clear.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I like Pentax and would hate to see it disappear. I'd like them to grow and have more degrees of freedom to operate. That's why I'm happy with a lot of buzz and public awareness around the K-7. Hopefully the excitement will spill over to people who don't own a Pentax yet.
I agree completely. If my blog hyped Pentax any more it would be a cult. I never even mention any other manufacturer. Mostly because I don't have the money to try more than one camera system in depth.
05-24-2009, 04:34 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
To falconeye's excellent reply I'd like to add:
You write:

.......

... I'm very picky about what is in the frame and don't want to crop later on in order to get what I saw.

....... Higher MP give more cropping potential, which I always welcome.
.


I'm being naughty on this one
05-24-2009, 05:11 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
So, you want something that works in colder temperatures than -30C and outer space, like previous models did. Funny, I don't.
Let me iterate on this single point because it may affect others.

Like those planning for an expedition in a cold region. Actually, I had a conversation about this with a friend planning to climb his 2nd Eight-thousander (meanwhile, he succeeded).

First of all, quoting PentaxPoke "K10D in Space" is nonsense. This isn't a demanding experiment and if a camera fails there, it would be due to too high a temperature, not too cold (because of thin air and ineffective transport of heat out of the body).

Cold temperatures in dense and humid air is an entirely different story. Ask Alpin mountaineers. Or ask ogl how easy it is to start a car in Siberian winter Outdoor, not in a garage. Again, cold temperatures in a dry desert are easily taken by mostly any camera.

But don't trust in this when planning an expedition into cold and possiby wet regions. Most SLRs are reported to have worked up to -30C. But are specified for 0+C only (like Nikon D700).

Having a camera designed for -10C is a very reassuring thing. And it probably shows in the selection of parts.


But most of all: Are you the best possible expert that you can judge if K-7 isn't more rugged for winter and snow usage than the K20D?
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