Possible Major Constraint on the 1/180s X-Sync Limitation

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-29-2009, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

...have you ever heard a fire it's shutter K10 with mirror lock up mode...the shutter itself is very loud.

Don't forget that the mirror slaps closed after the shutter is released in mirror lock up mode. I think that accounts for the majority of the noise you are hearing. Listen close to just the whish of the shutter right before the mirror slaps down - Very quiet.

nosnoop · 05-29-2009, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

According to John Carlson, Product Manager Imaging Systems, Pentax USA, the shutter was not redesigned.
I'll gladly conceed that I could be wrong but I seriously doubt John is. It's the same shutter.

For finer detail specs like this, I only rely on one site - Pentax Japan.

From here:
K-7｜デジタル一眼レフカメラ｜PENTAX:

Towards the bottom of the page, there is a description next to the picture of the shutter:

Quote:

新開発の高速・高耐久シャッターユニットを搭載。

"Incorporating a newly developed high speed and highly durable shutter unit."

And it went on to describe the use of lighter shutter blade, optimized shutter motor, the use of more durable and wear-resistant material in the shutter.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-29-2009, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by nosnoop

For finer detail specs like this, I only rely on one site - Pentax Japan.

From here:
K-7｜デジタル一眼レフカメラ｜PENTAX:

Towards the bottom of the page, there is a description next to the picture of the shutter:

"Incorporating a newly developed high speed and highly durable shutter unit."

And it went on to describe the use of lighter shutter blade, optimized shutter motor, the use of more durable and wear-resistant material in the shutter.

Well, since I don't read Japanese I'll have to take your word for it. I'm not sure which is worse, ignoring the shutter or completely redesigning the thing and still coming away with one of the slowest sync speeds in the industry. The 5.2 frames/second are not really relevant to flash photographers since strobes don't recycle that fast anyway. I just don't think flash support is a priority for Pentax.

Prognathous · 05-30-2009, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

Well, since I don't read Japanese I'll have to take your word for it. I'm not sure which is worse, ignoring the shutter or completely redesigning the thing and still coming away with one of the slowest sync speeds in the industry. The 5.2 frames/second are not really relevant to flash photographers since strobes don't recycle that fast anyway. I just don't think flash support is a priority for Pentax.

It seems quiet operation is a priority for them, so they just chose a different compromise.

Prog.

**Canada_Rockies** · 05-30-2009, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by CreV

Just tell me if pentax k-7 allow syncing flashes above x-sync; cheating x-sync

If I can sync above 1/180 I'm happy, I don't care if the shutterblade will cover half of the sensor at 1/400, just so I can place the subject in the "open" area.

As with other Pentax DSLRs you can use HSS (High Speed Sync) which uses multiple flashes to expose the image as the shutter slit travels over the image. I have the AF 540 FGZ, and can sync away madly, even using wireless sync. I would personally believe that only two, perhaps three, flashes would be needed to properly expose using HSS at 1/360 second. Assuming the worst case of three flashes, the guide number at maximum range would be cut by 2/3 from 54 (meters at ISO 100) to 18. With a lens with an aperture of f/2.8, the flash will still work out to about 6.4 meters, even when it is not helped with a second flash.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-30-2009, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

As with other Pentax DSLRs you can use HSS (High Speed Sync) ...

HSS? Never heard of it...

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-30-2009, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Prognathous

It seems quiet operation is a priority for them, so they just chose a different compromise.

Prog.

At this point it's a complete guess whether faster sync would have meant a louder shutter or not. I have my doubts about that but the main job of a camera is to capture an image, not win a quiet contest. If it really was one or the other then the photographer lost out to the stylist - Wrong call.

**Canada_Rockies** · 05-30-2009, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

HSS? Never heard of it...

It is a setting with compatible flashes that uses multiple discharges to expose as the shutter slit passes over the film/sensor. It allows the flash to cover the whole frame by flashes many times. It's in the manual for the flash and/or the camera.

Prognathous · 05-30-2009, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

At this point it's a complete guess whether faster sync would have meant a louder shutter or not. I have my doubts about that but the main job of a camera is to capture an image, not win a quiet contest. If it really was one or the other then the photographer lost out to the stylist - Wrong call.

When shooting in a quiet place, such a church or a theater, the noise the camera makes directly effects the photographer's ability to "capture an image", so much that using a noisy camera would be forbidden and result in no pictures at all.

Can you give an example where using 1/250 HSS instead of 1/250 X-sync would make the difference between capturing the image and having to give up completely?

Prog.

CreV · 05-30-2009, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

As with other Pentax DSLRs you can use HSS (High Speed Sync) which uses multiple flashes to expose the image as the shutter slit travels over the image. I have the AF 540 FGZ, and can sync away madly, even using wireless sync. I would personally believe that only two, perhaps three, flashes would be needed to properly expose using HSS at 1/360 second. Assuming the worst case of three flashes, the guide number at maximum range would be cut by 2/3 from 54 (meters at ISO 100) to 18. With a lens with an aperture of f/2.8, the flash will still work out to about 6.4 meters, even when it is not helped with a second flash.

The problem is the power. I wan't to be able to put my flash from distances up to +10m from the subject in Bright/cloudy conditions to get darker and more colorful skies. Also I'm working at distances up to 200m from the flash. So TTL is not the answer for me. Well I could go to nikon but I rather stay at pentax because I really like the way the pictures look. But I hoped they would listen to us for once. Just allow syncspeeds faster than x-sync... Pentaxcameras are the only ones that turns off the hotshoe at higher speeds than x-sync.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-30-2009, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Prognathous

When shooting in a quiet place, such a church or a theater, the noise the camera makes directly effects the photographer's ability to "capture an image", so much that using a noisy camera would be forbidden and result in no pictures at all.

Can you give an example where using 1/250 HSS instead of 1/250 X-sync would make the difference between capturing the image and having to give up completely?

Prog.

LOL, Nope - I never give up, but I do shoot in churches with my K10D all the time. I've been asked not to use my flash before but never my shutter. Check the camera bag of the vast majority of pro wedding shooters. High end Nikons and Canons - Noisy little critters. Can you honestly tell me that you've been asked not to shoot in a church before, solely on the basis that your shutter click was too loud - Seriously?

Prognathous · 05-30-2009, 04:04 PM

Shutter noise can be an issue and can make you take less photos if you care at all about the people around you.

You didn't relate to the point I raised in second question. Here it is again:

"Can you give an example where using 1/250 HSS instead of 1/250 X-sync would make the difference between capturing the image and having to give up completely?".

1/250 HSS vs. 1/250 X-sync - what's difference does it make for you?

Prog.

**Canada_Rockies** · 05-30-2009, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

LOL, Nope - I never give up, but I do shoot in churches with my K10D all the time. I've been asked not to use my flash before but never my shutter. Check the camera bag of the vast majority of pro wedding shooters. High end Nikons and Canons - Noisy little critters. Can you honestly tell me that you've been asked not to shoot in a church before, solely on the basis that your shutter click was too loud - Seriously?

I have shot a wedding where cameras were not allowed in the nave at all. I used the A 70-210 from the "crying room" in the balcony through a window. It is not unheard of that the sound of a camera, or the flash, or both, or even the presence of the photographer in the aisle is not appreciated.

CreV · 05-31-2009, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Prognathous

Shutter noise can be an issue and can make you take less photos if you care at all about the people around you.

You didn't relate to the point I raised in second question. Here it is again:

"Can you give an example where using 1/250 HSS instead of 1/250 X-sync would make the difference between capturing the image and having to give up completely?".

1/250 HSS vs. 1/250 X-sync - what's difference does it make for you?

Prog.

1/250 HSS vs 1/250 x-sync

You need TTL flashes which are expensive. You loose a FULL stop power by turning on HSS.

soccerjoe5 · 05-31-2009, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by CreV

1/250 HSS vs 1/250 x-sync

You need TTL flashes which are expensive. You loose a FULL stop power by turning on HSS.

I hate losing power. One reason why I don't use HSS. One reason why I LOVE shooting strobes with my LX3 (shooting at 1/2000+) is just FANTASTIC. LOTS of creativity options.

05-29-2009, 03:29 PM	#152
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle According to John Carlson, Product Manager Imaging Systems, Pentax USA, the shutter was not redesigned. I'll gladly conceed that I could be wrong but I seriously doubt John is. It's the same shutter. For finer detail specs like this, I only rely on one site - Pentax Japan. From here: K-7｜デジタル一眼レフカメラ｜PENTAX: Towards the bottom of the page, there is a description next to the picture of the shutter: Quote: 新開発の高速・高耐久シャッターユニットを搭載。 "Incorporating a newly developed high speed and highly durable shutter unit." And it went on to describe the use of lighter shutter blade, optimized shutter motor, the use of more durable and wear-resistant material in the shutter. Last edited by nosnoop; 05-29-2009 at 03:35 PM.

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05-29-2009, 07:23 AM	#151
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by Digitalis ...have you ever heard a fire it's shutter K10 with mirror lock up mode...the shutter itself is very loud. Don't forget that the mirror slaps closed after the shutter is released in mirror lock up mode. I think that accounts for the majority of the noise you are hearing. Listen close to just the whish of the shutter right before the mirror slaps down - Very quiet.

05-29-2009, 08:59 PM	#153
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by nosnoop For finer detail specs like this, I only rely on one site - Pentax Japan. From here: K-7｜デジタル一眼レフカメラ｜PENTAX: Towards the bottom of the page, there is a description next to the picture of the shutter: "Incorporating a newly developed high speed and highly durable shutter unit." And it went on to describe the use of lighter shutter blade, optimized shutter motor, the use of more durable and wear-resistant material in the shutter. Well, since I don't read Japanese I'll have to take your word for it. I'm not sure which is worse, ignoring the shutter or completely redesigning the thing and still coming away with one of the slowest sync speeds in the industry. The 5.2 frames/second are not really relevant to flash photographers since strobes don't recycle that fast anyway. I just don't think flash support is a priority for Pentax.

05-30-2009, 04:34 AM	#154
Prognathous Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 102	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Well, since I don't read Japanese I'll have to take your word for it. I'm not sure which is worse, ignoring the shutter or completely redesigning the thing and still coming away with one of the slowest sync speeds in the industry. The 5.2 frames/second are not really relevant to flash photographers since strobes don't recycle that fast anyway. I just don't think flash support is a priority for Pentax. It seems quiet operation is a priority for them, so they just chose a different compromise. Prog.

05-30-2009, 12:04 PM	#155
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by CreV Just tell me if pentax k-7 allow syncing flashes above x-sync; cheating x-sync If I can sync above 1/180 I'm happy, I don't care if the shutterblade will cover half of the sensor at 1/400, just so I can place the subject in the "open" area. As with other Pentax DSLRs you can use HSS (High Speed Sync) which uses multiple flashes to expose the image as the shutter slit travels over the image. I have the AF 540 FGZ, and can sync away madly, even using wireless sync. I would personally believe that only two, perhaps three, flashes would be needed to properly expose using HSS at 1/360 second. Assuming the worst case of three flashes, the guide number at maximum range would be cut by 2/3 from 54 (meters at ISO 100) to 18. With a lens with an aperture of f/2.8, the flash will still work out to about 6.4 meters, even when it is not helped with a second flash.

05-30-2009, 01:52 PM	#156
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by Canada_Rockies As with other Pentax DSLRs you can use HSS (High Speed Sync) ... HSS? Never heard of it...

05-30-2009, 02:03 PM	#157
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by Prognathous It seems quiet operation is a priority for them, so they just chose a different compromise. Prog. At this point it's a complete guess whether faster sync would have meant a louder shutter or not. I have my doubts about that but the main job of a camera is to capture an image, not win a quiet contest. If it really was one or the other then the photographer lost out to the stylist - Wrong call.

05-30-2009, 02:22 PM	#158
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle HSS? Never heard of it... It is a setting with compatible flashes that uses multiple discharges to expose as the shutter slit passes over the film/sensor. It allows the flash to cover the whole frame by flashes many times. It's in the manual for the flash and/or the camera.

05-30-2009, 02:53 PM	#159
Prognathous Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 102	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle At this point it's a complete guess whether faster sync would have meant a louder shutter or not. I have my doubts about that but the main job of a camera is to capture an image, not win a quiet contest. If it really was one or the other then the photographer lost out to the stylist - Wrong call. When shooting in a quiet place, such a church or a theater, the noise the camera makes directly effects the photographer's ability to "capture an image", so much that using a noisy camera would be forbidden and result in no pictures at all. Can you give an example where using 1/250 HSS instead of 1/250 X-sync would make the difference between capturing the image and having to give up completely? Prog.

05-30-2009, 03:25 PM	#160
CreV New Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: sweden Posts: 23	Originally posted by Canada_Rockies As with other Pentax DSLRs you can use HSS (High Speed Sync) which uses multiple flashes to expose the image as the shutter slit travels over the image. I have the AF 540 FGZ, and can sync away madly, even using wireless sync. I would personally believe that only two, perhaps three, flashes would be needed to properly expose using HSS at 1/360 second. Assuming the worst case of three flashes, the guide number at maximum range would be cut by 2/3 from 54 (meters at ISO 100) to 18. With a lens with an aperture of f/2.8, the flash will still work out to about 6.4 meters, even when it is not helped with a second flash. The problem is the power. I wan't to be able to put my flash from distances up to +10m from the subject in Bright/cloudy conditions to get darker and more colorful skies. Also I'm working at distances up to 200m from the flash. So TTL is not the answer for me. Well I could go to nikon but I rather stay at pentax because I really like the way the pictures look. But I hoped they would listen to us for once. Just allow syncspeeds faster than x-sync... Pentaxcameras are the only ones that turns off the hotshoe at higher speeds than x-sync.

05-30-2009, 03:38 PM	#161
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by Prognathous When shooting in a quiet place, such a church or a theater, the noise the camera makes directly effects the photographer's ability to "capture an image", so much that using a noisy camera would be forbidden and result in no pictures at all. Can you give an example where using 1/250 HSS instead of 1/250 X-sync would make the difference between capturing the image and having to give up completely? Prog. LOL, Nope - I never give up, but I do shoot in churches with my K10D all the time. I've been asked not to use my flash before but never my shutter. Check the camera bag of the vast majority of pro wedding shooters. High end Nikons and Canons - Noisy little critters. Can you honestly tell me that you've been asked not to shoot in a church before, solely on the basis that your shutter click was too loud - Seriously?

05-30-2009, 04:04 PM	#162
Prognathous Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 102	Shutter noise can be an issue and can make you take less photos if you care at all about the people around you. You didn't relate to the point I raised in second question. Here it is again: "Can you give an example where using 1/250 HSS instead of 1/250 X-sync would make the difference between capturing the image and having to give up completely?". 1/250 HSS vs. 1/250 X-sync - what's difference does it make for you? Prog.

05-30-2009, 06:27 PM	#163
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle LOL, Nope - I never give up, but I do shoot in churches with my K10D all the time. I've been asked not to use my flash before but never my shutter. Check the camera bag of the vast majority of pro wedding shooters. High end Nikons and Canons - Noisy little critters. Can you honestly tell me that you've been asked not to shoot in a church before, solely on the basis that your shutter click was too loud - Seriously? I have shot a wedding where cameras were not allowed in the nave at all. I used the A 70-210 from the "crying room" in the balcony through a window. It is not unheard of that the sound of a camera, or the flash, or both, or even the presence of the photographer in the aisle is not appreciated.

05-31-2009, 04:52 AM	#164
CreV New Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: sweden Posts: 23	Originally posted by Prognathous Shutter noise can be an issue and can make you take less photos if you care at all about the people around you. You didn't relate to the point I raised in second question. Here it is again: "Can you give an example where using 1/250 HSS instead of 1/250 X-sync would make the difference between capturing the image and having to give up completely?". 1/250 HSS vs. 1/250 X-sync - what's difference does it make for you? Prog. 1/250 HSS vs 1/250 x-sync You need TTL flashes which are expensive. You loose a FULL stop power by turning on HSS.

05-31-2009, 06:39 AM	#165
soccerjoe5 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,343	Originally posted by CreV 1/250 HSS vs 1/250 x-sync You need TTL flashes which are expensive. You loose a FULL stop power by turning on HSS. I hate losing power. One reason why I don't use HSS. One reason why I LOVE shooting strobes with my LX3 (shooting at 1/2000+) is just FANTASTIC. LOTS of creativity options.