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05-20-2009, 01:47 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Since I have been pondering this a bit... how about neutral density filters... seems people always forget those
A few other things.. CMOS is more difficult to do electronic shutter. Nikon CCD DSLR (and others) do do electronic shuttering.
Yes the shutter needs to be faster w/ great breaking power to get faster mechanical sych higher than 1/250th.
There are shutters that fast but it seems we hit a cost/performance wall here.
N.D. filters are a limited answer because they eat flash power at the same rate they eat ambient light. They are good for holding a wide aperture in bright light but they aren't the best answer for daylight fill flash. A better solution than N.D. filters is lowering the ISO in camera. The 100 ISO limitation on my K10D was another spec I was hoping the K-7 would expand on.

05-20-2009, 01:49 PM   #32
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It's the people who complain constantly...nothing is compelling them to stay with a certain brand except maybe to exalt other brands for some kind of superiority complex...or something..."Ohhhh, Pentax doesn't have this lens. Booo, Pentax doesn't offer this. Awww, Pentax can't keep up with this or that feature."

I take the opinion that it really doesn't matter what you use...just use it and like or move to something else that works. The Canon 300D sucked so here I am. Did I rant or rave? Nah. I have more money invested into Pentax now than the pile of other stuff I have such as P&S cams and other SLRs. If I don't get a K-7 for some odd reason(?) I might get a Canon 40D for fun. Is it better in some way? Some ways, yes...others, no. Do I expect people to say "noooo...don't do it! Get a _____ with a _____ lens instead!" Some will. Overall it doesn't matter.
05-20-2009, 01:53 PM   #33
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well I just hope that pentax k-7 don't disable coldshoe/pcport at higher speeds than x-sync.

Should just be a firmware fix, rite?
05-20-2009, 02:22 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
N.D. filters are a limited answer because they eat flash power at the same rate they eat ambient light. They are good for holding a wide aperture in bright light but they aren't the best answer for daylight fill flash. A better solution than N.D. filters is lowering the ISO in camera. The 100 ISO limitation on my K10D was another spec I was hoping the K-7 would expand on.
Now see, I can get behind a good healthy "bitch" like this. It's a perceived problem countered with a viable solution. I say "perceived" because it really only affects a fraction of the overall Pentax DSLR user base. And it is a solution that would serve multiple purposes and a far wider user base than a completely re-engineered shutter mechanism. I doubt there's a single (sane) long exposure enthusiast that would complain about dropping ISO vs attaching an ND filter to extend exposure duration.

I would welcome ISO 50 and/or 25 if the sensor signal can handle that much (de)amplification. I doubt that would be firmware patchable though as that "programming" likely has to be in the image processor itself.

05-20-2009, 02:35 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by ryan s Quote
It's the people who complain constantly...nothing is compelling them to stay with a certain brand except maybe to exalt other brands for some kind of superiority complex...or something..."Ohhhh, Pentax doesn't have this lens. Booo, Pentax doesn't offer this. Awww, Pentax can't keep up with this or that feature."

I take the opinion that it really doesn't matter what you use...just use it and like or move to something else that works. The Canon 300D sucked so here I am. Did I rant or rave? Nah. I have more money invested into Pentax now than the pile of other stuff I have such as P&S cams and other SLRs. If I don't get a K-7 for some odd reason(?) I might get a Canon 40D for fun. Is it better in some way? Some ways, yes...others, no. Do I expect people to say "noooo...don't do it! Get a _____ with a _____ lens instead!" Some will. Overall it doesn't matter.
You have the same freedom to chose the threads and individuals you read and respond to no? Why continue to invest negative energy in individuals you have clearly dismissed when you wouldn't even bother doing that with your gear?

The thing is, I am one of the ones frustrated by 1/180 synch here, not R.H.. If anything he is trying to help me come to grips with that frustration. You continue to completely invalidate the opinion of everyone who shares that frustration with no effort to understand why we even have it. 1/25 or 1/60 is good enough? Please...

Flash synch is only one spec. I may very well end up with the K-7 for many of the other features it offers at such an excellent price point but I would like to understand why 1/180 can't be beat. I think it can... I think it will. Would love to see my chosen brand get the credit.
05-20-2009, 03:03 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
You have the same freedom to chose the threads and individuals you read and respond to no? Why continue to invest negative energy in individuals you have clearly dismissed when you wouldn't even bother doing that with your gear?

The thing is, I am one of the ones frustrated by 1/180 synch here, not R.H.. If anything he is trying to help me come to grips with that frustration. You continue to completely invalidate the opinion of everyone who shares that frustration with no effort to understand why we even have it. 1/25 or 1/60 is good enough? Please...

Flash sync is only one spec. I may very well end up with the K-7 for many of the other features it offers at such an excellent price point but I would like to understand why 1/180 can't be beat. I think it can... I think it will. Would love to see my chosen brand get the credit.
It can be beat, and is in other cameras. Problem is price/return. The shutter needed may have raised the price by $200 retail (sheer guess of course). So do you lose 30 sales because price point or 1 sale due to lack of 1/250'th sync? It seems like such a small thing but in reality it isn't so easy...
In case your wondering I do see your point though..
05-20-2009, 03:15 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
if you REALLY need high speed sync, go buy yourself a Leica S system...
I would but when I tried to put my hands on one I discovered that the body was a couple of MM too big for me.














(MM = Mucho Monie$)



05-20-2009, 03:35 PM   #38
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The Leica S system uses a separate shutter leaf in the lens to achieve higher synch speeds. I wonder what it would cost to do something like that in the Pentax lens line-up. I wonder if it's even possible on the smaller barrels. What about a high speed magnifying lens coupler? I wonder a lot of things... I wish I was smarter.

There is a way... and there is a way to make it affordable. It's the one thing constructive criticism is good for. Make the wheel squeeky enough and someone will eventually engage the right minds to solve it.

05-20-2009, 03:43 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
The Leica S system uses a separate shutter leaf in the lens to achieve higher synch speeds. I wonder what it would cost to do something like that in the Pentax lens line-up. I wonder if it's even possible on the smaller barrels. What about a high speed magnifying lens coupler? I wonder a lot of things... I wish I was smarter.

There is a way... and there is a way to make it affordable. It's the one thing constructive criticism is good for. Make the wheel squeeky enough and someone will eventually engage the right minds to solve it.
Add leafshutter to a TC? Just like they were going to add SDM to the new 1.4x tc

That would be awesom

Last edited by CreV; 05-20-2009 at 03:48 PM.
05-20-2009, 04:45 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by ryan s Quote
You haven't followed this forum for that long, have you?

RH doesn't "shine the light" on anything but blows things out of proportion

<snip>
I understand your point entirely. But I honestly respect this particular thread that RH has started here. He was actually simply speculating on the reason why the x-sync speed has remained at 1/180s, not saying Pentax is doomed or any of that.

This is why I responded to this thread in the first place, because he wasn't going out of his way to bash Pentax as has been the case in the past, or to unabashedly plug his blog. I give him kudos for starting a thread with a tone that encourages a civilized discussion, whether or not he's griping about something.

That 1/2 stop of shutter speed is exactly 1/2 stop less power I need from my off-camera flashes when I'm trying to overpower ambient daylight. No it's not a dealbreaker by any means, but it is extra convenience.

(btw, a year or so from now when the price drops some I'll definitely be getting one of these K7's - for now I'm very happy with my K200D)
05-20-2009, 05:13 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
The Leica S system uses a separate shutter leaf in the lens to achieve higher synch speeds. I wonder what it would cost to do something like that in the Pentax lens line-up. I wonder if it's even possible on the smaller barrels. What about a high speed magnifying lens coupler? I wonder a lot of things... I wish I was smarter.
Should be possible in theory, though whether or not it's worth it, (This is fussier than you might think, if you want a good design that also works on SLRs and doesn't make exposures look strange/be inaccurate, but I think with computerized controls, it could be practical if anyone really wanted to do it: it's kind of always seemed to be more practical to design a lens *around* the shutter, and I think there's things about a 35mm slr's registration distance that make this tricky with some focal lengths at least. )

(You need to have the leaf shutter occur at a place in the path of the light that the time and aperture work out properly together, since they move the same way) though there's other reasons to prefer a leaf shutter beyond synch speeds.

(Back when a medium format SLR was lucky to have *1/60th* the LS lenses were a bigger deal for those reasons, but I still tend to look blankly at those who figure 1/180th is all that bad for a focal plane shutter. )
05-20-2009, 05:26 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
if you REALLY need high speed sync, go buy yourself a Leica S system...the Leica 180mm f/4 leaf shutter lens is capable of sync at speeds faster than any current DSLR.

from what I have heard some S system lenses can sync at 1/1000s
If Oly's upcoming m4/3's camera did away with the mechanical shutter then we should be able to save about $15k or so and just get it instead of the Leica. We'll find out on June 15th...
05-20-2009, 05:42 PM   #43
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I like this thread. So, let me copy https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/601354-post3422.html over here

In an attempt to sort out the possibilities with regard to the flash sync time, I computed the respective widths between shutter curtains:

Width between shutter curtains (vertical shutter):

K20D: APS-C, 1/4000, 1/180X: 0.70 mm
K-7 A: APS-C, 1/8000, 1/250X: 0.49 mm
K-7 B: APS-C, 1/8000, 1/180X: 0.35 mm
MX: VF, 1/1000, 1/60X: 1.44 mm
LX: VF, 1/2000, 1/75X: 0.9 mm
PZ-10: VF, 1/2000, 1/100X: 1.2 mm
PZ-1: VF, 1/8000, 1/250X: 0.75 mm

So, even if RH is correct in his assumptions, a 1/180X on the K-7 means an extraordinarily small slit. Let's call it "precision slit". Not necessarily a cheap thing ...
05-20-2009, 06:32 PM   #44
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I own a few leaf shutter lenses for the pentax 645 and 67 systems....I wonder if it's possible to trigger them manually on the K10D


incidentally the Pentax 67 II had a x-synch speed of 1/30th
the Leica M3 has 1/50th Xsync. After fifty years of rangefinders still carrying that "abysmal" 1/30th~1/60th sync speed the year 1999 konica came out with a rangefinder that could sync at 1/125s -and you know what?...nobody gave a shit.

Last edited by Digitalis; 05-20-2009 at 06:47 PM.
05-20-2009, 07:29 PM   #45
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How does Olympus do it with the E-3?
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