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05-22-2009, 12:57 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by CreV Quote
You can't use HSS if you are using studiolights. A flash is 15x weaker than a studiolight and as expensive as one.
If you're using studiolights you don't need HSS, flash power dictates exposure time. AFAIK faster sync speeds only are an issue for daylight+flash photography, unless you're using continuous lighting in the studio.


Last edited by ricardobeat; 05-22-2009 at 01:05 PM.
05-22-2009, 02:51 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
If you're using studiolights you don't need HSS, flash power dictates exposure time. AFAIK faster sync speeds only are an issue for daylight+flash photography, unless you're using continuous lighting in the studio.
Used a studiolight at dusk and 1/180 wasn't enough to freeze the skater. Ended up with alot of motionblur at the arms and you can't tell if he has fingers.
the light covered the whole body and it has 1/1100 T.1

You still need faster syncspeeds because of the motionblur ambientlight creates.

Well 1/250 isn't really a huge step. 1/4 less motionblur but still something. But if pentax allowed higer syncspeeds than xsync. then it would be worth gold. All CaNikons allows syncing faster than x-sync. Pentax doesn't. Why?

Last edited by CreV; 05-22-2009 at 03:13 PM.
05-22-2009, 04:13 PM   #108
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1/250 sec Xsync on Pentax was first available in a Pentax 35mm SLR in 1992 with the PZ-1. This and OTF flash metering was my primary reason for purchasing that $660+ body the first week it became available.

Preventing motion blur is only one factor in why a higher maximum sync is useful. Another is that slower sync speeds force a smaller aperture, to keep the exposure within bounds, and the greater DOF means less separation of the subject from the BG and this can indeed become an issue with busy backrrounds. Hence the PZ-1 was a far better event and environmental portraiture camera than the LX (1/75 max sync), at least for me.

Yes, people do buy cameras on the strength of one or two features. The Hyper-Manual mode on the PZ-1 used with Spot Metering remains the fastest way to correct for subjects that are low- or high-key that I've yet found, and is nearly foolproof with a good 18% gray patch to meter off of in the same general direction. I'd probably buy the K7 for that feature alone (instantly, if I didn't have so much Nikon gear already, what with a pair of SB-800's with Daylight Balanced Fill Flash at 1/250s or faster, that can be dialed down or bracketed.)

Pentax 35mm use among pros by the early 90's was hindered by Pentax being so late to the party with faster sync. But their also being a medium format camera company, this may have been by design, because faster sync of the leaf-shutter lenses (Pentax sold several in the 645 and 67 lines) was a big selling point for wedding photographers, portraitists, etc. Perhaps Pentax well understoood that they'd be cannibalizing their own MF sales to provide this feature in 35mm. The convergence of two things did in fact cannibalize MF sales. First was 400 speed negative films becoming good enough for 11x14 enlargements (adequate in many cases even at 16x20) from 35mm negatives, and second, 35mm pro cameras commonly beginning to feature the multi-bladed vertical travel shutters with 1/250 and even 1/300s X-sync.

FWIW the fastest speed a focal plane shutter can attain as a fully open, slit-free opening, is the limit to sync speed. Shooting 1/2 a frame isn't much of a solution because the shutter itself appears in the frame as a hard line during short duration fill flash pops. Faster sync can also be achieved by and electronic switching of the CCD in a digital camera at a slower mechanical shutter speed or by strobing the flash in very short bursts as the slit of the FP shutter. The latter can cause strange motion blur and multiple exposure problems with fast moving subjects like a hummingbird's beating wings.

Last edited by Ivan J. Eberle; 05-22-2009 at 04:18 PM. Reason: sense
05-22-2009, 06:24 PM   #109
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another thing that ticks me off with the K10D is in TaV mode you can't use HSS. the shutter speed is locked to 1/180th

05-22-2009, 07:10 PM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by CreV Quote
Used a studiolight at dusk and 1/180 wasn't enough to freeze the skater. Ended up with alot of motionblur at the arms and you can't tell if he has fingers.
the light covered the whole body and it has 1/1100 T.1

You still need faster syncspeeds because of the motionblur ambientlight creates.
How about a ND filter (to avoid enlarging DOF) + more flash power? I suppose a studio flash has plenty of power to overcome ambient light at dusk. You'd get the same effect from faster exposure.
05-22-2009, 08:20 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by mr.voigtlander Quote
[ "Wake up buddy, it's not 1937 any more.

If you really want to go back to the dinosaur days of flash bulbs and unreliable shutters, that's certainly your perogative. Some of us look forwards to what we can do today, not backwards to some happier, simpler time when the sun was dimmer and fill flash was easier
." ]


I was looking through this thread to see if there was any info on whether the K7 has rear-curtain sync? Haven't seen it listed anywhere. Does it?

As for the comment above and the mood of this thread, I can only suggest that you guys actually go back to the 1930s and look at the photography of Harold Edgerton. He's the dinosaur who invented flash and with his crappy old cameras he could photograph bullets speeding through an apple at 1,000,000th of a sec. (and measure it). He also invented radar.

In fact, what you may not know is that you can take a photo with the K7, or indeed almost any camera, even a pinhole camera, at speeds of 10,000th-25,000th of a second etc by turning the flash power down to its lowest setting and firing in bulb. The flash acts as a shutter in effect by freezing the action at the flash speed, not the shutter speed. And flash speeds are very fast. By shortening the power output you are actually just shortening the flash speed. A vivitar 283 flash (a 1970s antique) works nicely...

You ought to check out some history before you go knocking it. Most of the masters have done it already and what you want to do with your camera can be done already. But I wonder if you understand things as much as you think you do.

Harold Edgerton - the master of flash. check him out then tell me what you think of dinosaur photographers and equipment. Then see how the K7 might do something that ain't in the manual or this forum...

Amen.

PS I admit I'm biased. I like the quality of pictures from the 1850s.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, though looking at Edgerton's photos is always a welcome distraction.
We are talking about how much ambient light the shutter lets in at it's highest speed where it is fully open, not flash duration or when it is triggered.
05-22-2009, 10:18 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
How about a ND filter (to avoid enlarging DOF) + more flash power? I suppose a studio flash has plenty of power to overcome ambient light at dusk. You'd get the same effect from faster exposure.
One major problem with high powered flash is that it's generally frowned on to blind an athlete mid routine. I can overcome ambient with a flash from a firecracker if I can get my synch speed high enough. Any way we look at it, higher synch speeds are far and away the best answer.

It's 2009 - We are surrounded by mind blowing marvels of engineering that seemed impossible 5 years ago. It's time for this frustrating limitation to be resolved! Mark my words, 5 years from now 1/1000 X-synch will be readily available on pro level DSLR's and I will probably be shooting the system that gets there first. I fully expect to see 1/500 on a new model by the end of 2010 and it will be one of the hottest selling cameras in the history of DSLRs.

It won't be hot just because of the synch speed, because if this thread is any indication, a lot of people just don't get it, (though I think most pros do). It will be hot because synch speed is a pretty good measure of the capabilities of the engineers behind the whole system and the companies understanding of the needs of professional photographers. Chances are, if they figure this one out, they are going to get the rest of the system right too.
05-22-2009, 11:17 PM   #113
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I think you are giving high synch speeds more credit than they deserve mate. has anyone here bough a camera based solely on it's synch speed?

you know, thirty odd years ago when f/1.4 lenses were becoming the standard lens SLRs were sold with they said in the next ten years lenses as fast as f/1.0 would become commonplace....that still hasn't happened.

the Nikon D3 uses a composite Carbon-Fiber/Kevlar shutter blades to reduce mass and Enhance the durability and that camera's synch speed is only 1/250s and in my opinion Nikon engineers have done a marvellous job with the D3.
I'll also point out that the Nikon D70 had a synch speed of 1/500th - if synch speed is so important to you then why don't you own one?...Nikkor lenses are superb, especially some of the current ones.

Leica cameras are made to exceptionally high standards(The M8 is excused) the M7 and M6 and even my half century old leica M3 all work flawlessly and they will likely to continue to do so, and their synch speed is only 1/50th!

I own a Rollei 6008 integral and the 180mm f/4 lens is capable of synch at 1/1000s...but Rollei no longer exists, they died when the market went digital. If your argument holds any water then Rollei should be bigger than mamyia or hasselblad combined by now!

Certainly the Hy-6 which is using the older rollei mount can be used in conjunction with older Rollei lenses, but alot of them suffer from legacy lens issues and are more or less unusable due to the nature of medium format digital sensors.


Last edited by Digitalis; 05-22-2009 at 11:23 PM.
05-23-2009, 04:54 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ivan J. Eberle Quote
1/250 sec Xsync on Pentax was first available in a Pentax 35mm SLR in 1992 with the PZ-1. This and OTF flash metering was my primary reason for purchasing that $660+ body the first week it became available.

Preventing motion blur is only one factor in why a higher maximum sync is useful. Another is that slower sync speeds force a smaller aperture, to keep the exposure within bounds, and the greater DOF means less separation of the subject from the BG and this can indeed become an issue with busy backrrounds. Hence the PZ-1 was a far better event and environmental portraiture camera than the LX (1/75 max sync), at least for me.

Yes, people do buy cameras on the strength of one or two features. The Hyper-Manual mode on the PZ-1 used with Spot Metering remains the fastest way to correct for subjects that are low- or high-key that I've yet found, and is nearly foolproof with a good 18% gray patch to meter off of in the same general direction. I'd probably buy the K7 for that feature alone (instantly, if I didn't have so much Nikon gear already, what with a pair of SB-800's with Daylight Balanced Fill Flash at 1/250s or faster, that can be dialed down or bracketed.)

Pentax 35mm use among pros by the early 90's was hindered by Pentax being so late to the party with faster sync. But their also being a medium format camera company, this may have been by design, because faster sync of the leaf-shutter lenses (Pentax sold several in the 645 and 67 lines) was a big selling point for wedding photographers, portraitists, etc. Perhaps Pentax well understoood that they'd be cannibalizing their own MF sales to provide this feature in 35mm. The convergence of two things did in fact cannibalize MF sales. First was 400 speed negative films becoming good enough for 11x14 enlargements (adequate in many cases even at 16x20) from 35mm negatives, and second, 35mm pro cameras commonly beginning to feature the multi-bladed vertical travel shutters with 1/250 and even 1/300s X-sync.

FWIW the fastest speed a focal plane shutter can attain as a fully open, slit-free opening, is the limit to sync speed. Shooting 1/2 a frame isn't much of a solution because the shutter itself appears in the frame as a hard line during short duration fill flash pops. Faster sync can also be achieved by and electronic switching of the CCD in a digital camera at a slower mechanical shutter speed or by strobing the flash in very short bursts as the slit of the FP shutter. The latter can cause strange motion blur and multiple exposure problems with fast moving subjects like a hummingbird's beating wings.
Thanks for the historical perspective.
05-23-2009, 12:01 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
yes, the sync speed is a bitch, but it's either a louder shutter or a 1/2 stop slower synch speed...your pick.
I agree. Pentax should explain this in a FAQ. I believe most people who are disappointed about the relatively slow sync speed would be much more positive about it if they'd understand that they gain a quieter shutter.

Prog.
05-23-2009, 07:21 PM   #116
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this thread is longer than i expected, so appologies if i missed something in the last pages (and making similar points again).

people seem to get very emotional. chronologically:

ryan (especially): as others have said, rh has only tried to explain why x-sync stayed at 1/180, he is merely pointing out that pentax probably made a choice, not that they made a bad choice. i think his point is very decent, and, as it happens, he is kind of on your side on this one . don't bash the man because you had a negative impression of him in the past.

x-sync: as i said, many people seem to get emotional about this, and blaming others for "not understanding", being luddites, and so on. i would try to put things into perspective: nobody said you are bad photographers to want higher x-sync, or that 1/30 should be enough for anybody, the real point here is: i would very much wellcome higher x-sync, just as you (and _not_ only for flash, ricehigh has already explained why), but not 1/250 over 1/180. if you can make it 1/500 at the very least, or ideally 1/1000, i'm in! the problem is that what ricehigh explained is just the tip of the iceberg: ok, maybe more power is needed, i think that can be achieved without so much trouble these days, and lighter (and slightly more expensive) materials can be employed too, so as to minimize the power and energy costs, but we also want the shutter to be _reliable_, including in varied temperatures, and over time (100k actuations is a nice round figure, isn't it), not to mention we want a quiet shutter (i do), to go over to 1/500 or above while not compromising significantly on reliability is not easy, this is mostly micro-mechanics, and the r&d required might be quite daughnting; can anybody please name one focal plane shutter which goes over 1/250 significantly, for a similar sized frame (aps-c or 35mm), and which was ever in production? (i would be very interested). i am ready to believe pentax stayed with this shutter just because it is old and proven, and they can claim 100k from it without blinking, and i am happy with that, i don't want a "state of the art" "let the customers test it for a while" 1/250 shutter instead.

as there is no significant speed increase, my opinion is that 1/180 is just as good as 1/250, and that the practical way for such fast shutters today is still central leaf shutters (in-lens), perhaps there is "another way", but for mass production, reasonable prices, and significant speed beneffits, i just cannot see it right now.

so i guess my point is: if we are talking 1/500 or 1/1000 here, i'm all for it, let the brainstorming begin, and let's forget about bashing (this is new territory we are exploring, "electronic" shutters do not count, so, if i am not mistaking, nobody else has done it yet), if we are talking 1/180 over 1/250, i honestly don't understand what the fuss is all about, i'm sorry. or:

"what am i missing?"
05-23-2009, 07:33 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
can anybody please name one focal plane shutter which goes over 1/250 significantly, for a similar sized frame (aps-c or 35mm), and which was ever in production?

To the very best of my knowledge there was never a production SLR or rangefinder that was capable of this.(that used a focal plane shutter.ED)

there were attempts...the fan blade shutter, which promises sync speeds well over 1/500 but that wasn't a practical solution because of the cost involved to construct it and it wasn't very reliable mechanically, because it required an almost obscene amount to torque to operate.

Last edited by Digitalis; 05-24-2009 at 02:12 AM.
05-23-2009, 11:26 PM   #118
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My Ricoh 500 G (35mm rangefinder) X-syncs all the way to 1/500.

Prog.
05-24-2009, 12:14 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
My Ricoh 500 G (35mm rangefinder) X-syncs all the way to 1/500.

Prog.
Leaf shutters are capable of synching at any shutter speed because of the way they operate.
However, we seem to be stuck with focal plane shutters on DSLR cameras.

To Prognathous: I suspect a little shutter noise would be easy to take by the user base who would like the higher sync speed.

To Nanok: If you read the thread, you will know what you are missing.

To Digitalis: the people posting here who would like higher synch speeds have presented very rational and logical explanations for why they would like that extra half stop.
Just because you don't see it as important doesn't make it unimportant, it only means your needs are less stringent.

To Mr. Voigtlander: Your post regarding Edgerton and his work is so completely off base regarding the subject at hand that it should be in a topic of it's own, on a different forum.
05-24-2009, 12:26 AM   #120
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"the people posting here who would like higher synch speeds have presented very rational and logical explanations for why they would like that extra half stop.
Just because you don't see it as important doesn't make it unimportant, it only means your needs are less stringent."

logic and rationality are all fair and good, but whether it is practical from a mechanical point of view remains to be seen.

I suppose if demand were high enough they could make leaf shutter lenses for SLR cameras. Mechanically speaking It wouldn't be hard to implement it. off the top of my head I can think of one way to do it: all you would have to do is put a lever that runs parallel with the aperture lever on the lens and when the aperture gets stopped down, it fires the Leaf shutter. though of course, Leaf shutter lenses are widely known for being hideously expensive because of their complicated design, and they are often a stop slower than their shutter less counterparts.
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