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05-24-2009, 01:56 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
so i guess my point is: if we are talking 1/500 or 1/1000 here, i'm all for it, let the brainstorming begin, and let's forget about bashing (this is new territory we are exploring, "electronic" shutters do not count, so, if i am not mistaking, nobody else has done it yet), if we are talking 1/180 over 1/250, i honestly don't understand what the fuss is all about, i'm sorry. or:

"what am i missing?"
Make a Leafshutter Teleconverter with 1x-1.4x

If they can't fit it in the body. Put it outside! Just like Leica done with their S2.
The camera is fitted with a normal shutter and the lenses with leafshutters if you want to use flashes.

Pentax could do this by making a TC leafshutter to override the 1/180 problem. Overall sharpness will worsen but a grayfilter also deteriorates the quality but it won't give you sweet 1/1000 syncspeeds

05-24-2009, 02:06 AM   #122
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I Imagine a helicoid extension tube with a leaf shutter mechanism would also be useful for macro photographers too.
05-24-2009, 07:48 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
...I'll also point out that the Nikon D70 had a synch speed of 1/500th - if synch speed is so important to you then why don't you own one?
... I wish I had a nickle for every time I've pondered whether I would be happier today with a D200/D70 combo than I would with my K10D/K100D combo. The honest answer is that I had very high hopes that the next Pentax camera would solve the quandary for me once and for all. It did.

Edit: For clarification, I came so close to switching brands last year when some of my commissions forced me to start adding more expensive lenses and accessories to my kit, effectively locking myself into the Pentax system for the next year or two. Overall, I think the K-7 affirms that I made the right decision. I'm sure I would be very happy shooting Nikon today, but certainly no happier than I am shooting Pentax.

Last edited by GoldenWreckedAngle; 05-26-2009 at 08:14 AM. Reason: for clarification
05-24-2009, 09:52 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
... I wish I had a nickle for every time I've pondered whether I would be happier today with a D200/D70 combo than I would with my K10D/K100D combo. The honest answer is that I had very high hopes that the next Pentax camera would solve the quandary for me once and for all. It did.
Careful what you wish for. There appears there are some quality issues (?) re: the electronic fast sync speeds. This is meant as a simple suggestion for you to dig into this issue before passing judgement.
This is not the first time I heard it mentioned but I have VERY limited knowledge of nikon quality... and it is about the d40...and I did not check much further.
1/500 flash sync on D40--How and why: Nikon D90 - D40 / D5000 Forum: Digital Photography Review
the D40 uses a mechanical shutter that opens 1/90th second with the full sensor being electronically turned on and off to give up to 1/500th sec exposures. This system causes problems making it work at higher resolutions, but it performs okay at 6 MP.
Added info;
1/500 flash sync on D40--How and why: Nikon D90 - D40 / D5000 Forum: Digital Photography Review
May or may not apply...
It turns out that the D70's shutter only governs relatively long exposures: Shorter exposures are controlled by "gating" the sensor chip, starting and stopping its light-gathering electronically. This lets you achieve very fast shutter speeds economically, but has the limitation that the sensor's surface is actually exposed to incoming light for a period of time much longer than the exposure itself. Normally, this causes no problems, but as we see above, massive light overloads can bleed charge into the CCD's transfer registers while the image data is being read out. The result is horrible streaking.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D80/D80A5.HTM#ccdgating


Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-24-2009 at 10:01 AM.
05-24-2009, 04:57 PM   #125
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I always wondered why Nikon stopped doing that "gating" on the sensor. it was quite an innovative trick, but as we now know it does have it's drawbacks.

"Just because you don't see it as important doesn't make it unimportant, it only means your needs are less stringent"

I do see it as important. I use fill flash for my wildlife work. And it does tick me off that the sync isn't higher because when you're using focal lengths over 300mm and you're trying to balance the flash exposure with the ambient light, Camera shake can become a problem with hand held usage.. and subject motion especially fast moving wildlife cannot be compensated by IS so I would also like to see faster sync. But I'm not moaning and whining about it. Pentax will release a camera with a higher speed sync, eventually. And knowing Pentax, the sync will be faster that "just" 1/250th I'm betting Pentax will go for something faster to keep the water boiling under canikons butt.
05-24-2009, 07:39 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
... Pentax will release a camera with a higher speed sync, eventually. And knowing Pentax, the sync will be faster that "just" 1/250th I'm betting Pentax will go for something faster to keep the water boiling under canikons butt.
In general, Pentax does a great job of refining the features that others bring to the market. They also do a great job of bringing those feature rich cameras to the market at an excellent price point. They are coming back and it looks to me like they are coming back strong but I do hope there is a day coming when Nikon and Canon execs. will loose a little more sleep over a Pentax announcement.

That would be a welcome change but if the rumors of the eminent release of the Nikon D400 are well founded I suspect Nikon will continue to boil their own water and occasionally react to the over spray steam of cameras like the 5DMark II. I hate to say it but considering the pace that Nikon and Canon continue to release new cameras, and the pace at which Pentax reacts, it almost wouldn't surprise me if there were "K-7 killers" on the shelves before K-7s.
05-24-2009, 07:45 PM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Careful what you wish for. There appears there are some quality issues (?) re: the electronic fast sync speeds. This is meant as a simple suggestion for you to dig into this issue before passing judgement.
This is not the first time I heard it mentioned but I have VERY limited knowledge of nikon quality... and it is about the d40...and I did not check much further.
1/500 flash sync on D40--How and why: Nikon D90 - D40 / D5000 Forum: Digital Photography Review
the D40 uses a mechanical shutter that opens 1/90th second with the full sensor being electronically turned on and off to give up to 1/500th sec exposures. This system causes problems making it work at higher resolutions, but it performs okay at 6 MP.
Added info;
1/500 flash sync on D40--How and why: Nikon D90 - D40 / D5000 Forum: Digital Photography Review
May or may not apply...
It turns out that the D70's shutter only governs relatively long exposures: Shorter exposures are controlled by "gating" the sensor chip, starting and stopping its light-gathering electronically. This lets you achieve very fast shutter speeds economically, but has the limitation that the sensor's surface is actually exposed to incoming light for a period of time much longer than the exposure itself. Normally, this causes no problems, but as we see above, massive light overloads can bleed charge into the CCD's transfer registers while the image data is being read out. The result is horrible streaking.
Nikon D80 Digital Camera Exposure - Full Review - The Imaging Resource!
Thanks for the heads up. That is certainly worth looking into. I have to confess that I didn't even realize the D40 had a 1/500 synch speed. How the heck I missed that detail is beyond me. If that's true, the D300 replacement will likely have it as well. It's certain that Nikon is working on it at least as hard as Pentax is.
05-24-2009, 08:55 PM   #128
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No, I don't think the D300 replacement will have 1/500 xsync. It seems Nikon has given up on this hybrid electronic/mechanical shutter. The D60 does 1/200, the D90 does 1/200 and the D700 does 1/250.



QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
Thanks for the heads up. That is certainly worth looking into. I have to confess that I didn't even realize the D40 had a 1/500 synch speed. How the heck I missed that detail is beyond me. If that's true, the D300 replacement will likely have it as well. It's certain that Nikon is working on it at least as hard as Pentax is.


05-24-2009, 08:59 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
I have to confess that I didn't even realize the D40 had a 1/500 synch speed. How the heck I missed that detail is beyond me. If that's true, the D300 replacement will likely have it as well. It's certain that Nikon is working on it at least as hard as Pentax is.
Very unlikely. D40 had a CCD sensor. OTOH, D300/400 has CMOS which makes it undesirable because of the rolling shutters (the electronic rolling shutters used in video mode is the reason for the wobble effect). So far no one has come up with a CMOS with global shutters for consumer digital camera or camcorder mainly because of much higher cost. It will become a reality in the not-too-soon future when the cost has come down
05-24-2009, 09:40 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by CreV Quote
Make a Leafshutter Teleconverter with 1x-1.4x

If they can't fit it in the body. Put it outside! Just like Leica done with their S2.
The camera is fitted with a normal shutter and the lenses with leafshutters if you want to use flashes.

Pentax could do this by making a TC leafshutter to override the 1/180 problem. Overall sharpness will worsen but a grayfilter also deteriorates the quality but it won't give you sweet 1/1000 syncspeeds
QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
I Imagine a helicoid extension tube with a leaf shutter mechanism would also be useful for macro photographers too.
Nice ideas, but do you expect this from a company that have not yet even an ordinary AF capable converter or tube in their bag? (wow, I bashed Pentax, but this is something that does anoys me even if I personally have found OK 3rd party solutions)
05-25-2009, 06:15 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Very unlikely. D40 had a CCD sensor. OTOH, D300/400 has CMOS which makes it undesirable because of the rolling shutters (the electronic rolling shutters used in video mode is the reason for the wobble effect). So far no one has come up with a CMOS with global shutters for consumer digital camera or camcorder mainly because of much higher cost. It will become a reality in the not-too-soon future when the cost has come down
Yup, didn't take long to figure that one out once I actually looked at the D40 specs. There are many CCD cameras on the market with 1/500 synch speed.
05-25-2009, 06:19 AM   #132
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I also just discovered that the Panasonic GH1 has a 1/160 synch speed so we can officially pass the torch for the slowest shutter on a high end DSLR.
05-25-2009, 08:22 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by CreV Quote
Make a Leafshutter Teleconverter with 1x-1.4x

If they can't fit it in the body. Put it outside! Just like Leica done with their S2.
The camera is fitted with a normal shutter and the lenses with leafshutters if you want to use flashes.

Pentax could do this by making a TC leafshutter to override the 1/180 problem. Overall sharpness will worsen but a grayfilter also deteriorates the quality but it won't give you sweet 1/1000 syncspeeds
A PENTAX 645 LS 75mm F2.8 and a converter, or is it too manual?

Not impossible what Pentax comes with a K3 or K1,
it can looks as a Olympus E3 and have 1/500s,
but i donīt think so.
But 1/500 are like 1/350 on 24X36, 16mm to go
instead of 24mm.

But a leafshutter teleconverter are more possible,
or a zoom like 17-70 with leafshutter that can have 1/1000s
or perhaps 1/2000s.

But i can think that Pentax are waiting/wanting for a solution
from Samsung, a sensor or a electronic film/filter
instead of a mechanic shutter.
05-25-2009, 08:35 AM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bophoto Quote
But i can think that Pentax are waiting/wanting for a solution
from Samsung, a sensor or a electronic film/filter
instead of a mechanic shutter.
am not sure about that, the ccd from sony had an electronic shutter, and nikon used it in the d70s to make it the fastest syncing dslr, but pentax simply didnt take advantage of it.
05-25-2009, 07:25 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by and Quote
am not sure about that, the ccd from sony had an electronic shutter, and nikon used it in the d70s to make it the fastest syncing dslr, but pentax simply didnt take advantage of it.
We've gone over this several times. The gating trick on CCD sensors will not work on CMOS sensors. At least not the way it has been done in the past.
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