Possible Major Constraint on the 1/180s X-Sync Limitation

jeffkrol · 05-21-2009, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

...use an indecent light meter to set your exposure

I think I need an indecent light meter myself.

Cambo · 05-21-2009, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

you're dead wrong mate, landscape photography often involves often running across hells half acre at freezing temperatures at the crack of dawn and getting your "shot" you scouted out the morning before,get your 8X10 set up on the tripod, focus on the dim ground glass, stop the lens down to f/22, use whatever amount of tilt/shift necessary to get the things you want in focus, slide the film holder on,hope the film hasn't buckled in the holder due to temperature changes, use an indecent light meter to set your exposure, get everything in the right "zone", set the shutter to 1/4th and hope to hell you cocked the shutter before you miss the golden opportunity...

It takes me about 10~15 minutes to get everything set up properly when I'm using 8X10 view camera....but the results of a properly executed image on 8X10 especially with a high resolution film like Kodak Tech pan (theoretical maximum resolution is in excess of 600LP/mm)

Inspite of all the advancements and convenience of digital photography, I STILL dream of an 8x10, a killer Schneider lens and Velvia pulled to iso 40...you, obviously, have experienced that, lucky bum.

Very, very fine work indeed.

Do you ever use your digital to set exposure for your 8x10?

Cheers,
Cameron

Cambo · 05-21-2009, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

I think I need an indecent light meter myself.

That's an OLD one...

Cheers,
Cameron

**Digitalis** · 05-21-2009, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

I think I need an indecent light meter myself.

ROFL...I think I need one myself.

**Digitalis** · 05-21-2009, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by Cambo

Inspite of all the advancements and convenience of digital photography, I STILL dream of an 8x10, a killer Schneider lens and Velvia pulled to iso 40...you, obviously, have experienced that, lucky bum.

Very, very fine work indeed.

Do you ever use your digital to set exposure for your 8x10?

Cheers,
Cameron

I prefer B&W film on larger formats, I don't like Velvia at all...each to his own but I like 4X5 and larger formats because of the tonalities they are capable of reproducing, Velvia wrecks all attempts at subtle tonality and it's reciprocity characteristic is less than stellar. mind you, I enjoyed Provia on 4X5 from time to time. And I prefer Rodenstock lenses especially their APO Sironar-S series, though I do own a fair number of Schneider and Nikkor LF lenses.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-21-2009, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

you're dead wrong mate, landscape photography often involves ... (lots of bust your but panic work)

Hey, I shoot a ton of architectural so I get where you are coming from but I couldn't give a flip what my flash synch speed is when I'm on an architectural shoot either. My point is that there isn't a single flash enhanced image in your portfolio. Wouldn't you like to be able to pop a little fill into the shadows on your Dirtbike Enduro Challenge shot without having to drop the shutter speed?

Please don't take that as a criticism of the shot, it's not. It was the just only thing I could find in your portfolio to use as an example of something that might matter to me. I can see every spoke on the wheels at 1/640. What would the spokes look like at 1/250? How about 1/180? The only way to freeze the spokes in that shot is to keep the shutter speed up which means flash is off limits.

I can understand why you don't give a rip about something that is fairly irrelevant to you. What I don't understand is why you are trying to convince me that it shouldn't be relevant to me. It matters, and it matters big time to some of us.

ryan s · 05-21-2009, 09:33 AM

Well...this may or may not be my last response to this (mostly ridiculous) thread, especially since RH posted then ran.

I'm particular about my stuff...everything...almost to the point of being OCD (and that's no hyperbole). It took 6 months to decide to buy the K10. I hate the shutter sound, I hate that ISO 1600 is almost unusable, and I hate the 4 way controller and OK buttons. That's it. Those are the only things I can truly say I "hate" about this camera. Know what? It's great otherwise. I can't change it..."it is what it is."

That's why I'm so happy about the K-7...it should solve those issues. I could have gotten a 40D instead which would have solved those things...I would have given up all the features for which I love my Pentax so much, however. The improvements the K-7 brings in all other areas are pure icing on the cake.

For Digitalis and Wheatfield...I respect the hell out of people who still use MF and LF these days. Keep it up

dave sz · 05-21-2009, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

like you ryan I roll my eyes when I see people getting a their pants in a knot over the sync speed...alot of those older cameras I mentioned with sync speeds below 1/180s were all considered professional cameras. And photographers used them with flash and managed to produce superb results.

So cameras shouldn't evolve then? That's what you're saying? Or you're saying show with what you have? Why aren't others allowed to moan about it? Why can't hey have these things just so that getting those superb images is just a tad bit easier?
Defending a lack of a feature or he short coming of it is more pointless than complaining about features of a camera that is already finalized and in production. Except that these complaints might get the feature into a future model while not saying anything or saying it isn't needed, won' progress a damn thing...

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-21-2009, 09:49 AM

Maybe the answer is not camera related but flash related. What would it take to create a lightweight, battery powered flash that would burn for 1/180 of a second at full power? Do that, and anything faster than 1/180 is covered. Of course, for a camera like the K-7 it might make more sense to just use a portable video light instead of flash for some of my outdoor work.

CreV · 05-21-2009, 09:49 AM

Nobody knows if the camera Allows syncing beyond 1/180 without HSS?

My K10d simply turns off the hotshoe while a canikon would not.

I think turning off the hotshoe at faster speeds than X-sync is worse than x-sync is 1/180.
Should be a firmware fix?

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-21-2009, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by ryan s

Well...this may or may not be my last response to this (mostly ridiculous) thread, especially since RH posted then ran.

It took 6 months to decide to buy the K10. I hate the shutter sound, I hate that ISO 1600 is almost unusable, and I hate the 4 way controller and OK buttons. ...

That's why I'm so happy about the K-7...it should solve those issues. ...

Run a guy off then criticize him for leaving. That is (mostly ridiculous)

Like you, I love my K10D, except for two of the issues you mentioned and... a couple of issues the K-7 doesn't solve. Sucks to be me hu?

Wheatfield · 05-21-2009, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

Maybe the answer is not camera related but flash related. What would it take to create a lightweight, battery powered flash that would burn for 1/180 of a second at full power? Do that, and anything faster than 1/180 is covered. Of course, for a camera like the K-7 it might make more sense to just use a portable video light instead of flash for some of my outdoor work.

A lot. I have a 2000WS Norman power pack that burns about that long at full power. I believe the Metz 60 burns for close to that long at full power.
High speed sync is actually still the domain of flash bulbs that burn for relatively long time frames, but modern shutters don't synchronize with them.
High speed sync now is done by pulsing the flash. Unfortunately, it cuts down on flash range by a huge amount, so isn't practical if the subject isn't fairly close.

The best answer is still to have a shutter with a higher sync speed, or with the elecronic "shutters" being used in some of the other maker's cameras for this purpose.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-21-2009, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by CreV

Nobody knows if the camera Allows syncing beyond 1/180 without HSS?

My K10d simply turns off the hotshoe while a canikon would not.

I think turning off the hotshoe at faster speeds than X-sync is worse than x-sync is 1/180.
Should be a firmware fix?

I couldn't agree more. I can't think of a good reason for Pentax to disable flash beyond the synch speed unless they are concerned about amateur photographers scratching their heads over the dark edges they are getting with a flash. I imagine those same photographers might be scratching their head over why the *x@#$% flash wont fire at all (not that I would know anyone personally that might have spent a few frustrating minutes weeping uncontrollably and beating their head on the wall the first time that happened to them

)

ryan s · 05-21-2009, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

Run a guy off then criticize him for leaving. That is (mostly ridiculous)

Like you, I love my K10D, except for two of the issues you mentioned and... a couple of issues the K-7 doesn't solve. Sucks to be me hu?

Hello again

I deal with my cameras' (plural "cameras") shortcomings...there is not one camera that can do everything, yet. Maybe not ever...maybe in the next 5 years...who knows at the rate of technology. As far as I can tell...the sync speed is the only Pentax didn't touch or improve in some way on the whole K-7 camera.

mattdm · 05-21-2009, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

Maybe the answer is not camera related but flash related. What would it take to create a lightweight, battery powered flash that would burn for 1/180 of a second at full power? Do that, and anything faster than 1/180 is covered.

This is exactly the opposite of how hotshoe strobes work.

They always fire at full brightness, but the amount of light in the exposure is limited by cutting short the duration of the burst. As I said elsewhere, the AF540FGZ probably takes around 1/400th of a second to put out the (meaningful portion of the) full pulse. The Metz AF-1 flashes are less powerful in this regard, taking 1/125th of a second (by their numbers, not a guess) — so they're already worse than the sync speed if a full-power burst is needed.

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

Of course, for a camera like the K-7 it might make more sense to just use a portable video light instead of flash for some of my outdoor work.

Or other studio-style lighting. Yeah.

05-21-2009, 08:36 AM	#62
Cambo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,016	Gorgeous, man... Originally posted by Digitalis you're dead wrong mate, landscape photography often involves often running across hells half acre at freezing temperatures at the crack of dawn and getting your "shot" you scouted out the morning before,get your 8X10 set up on the tripod, focus on the dim ground glass, stop the lens down to f/22, use whatever amount of tilt/shift necessary to get the things you want in focus, slide the film holder on,hope the film hasn't buckled in the holder due to temperature changes, use an indecent light meter to set your exposure, get everything in the right "zone", set the shutter to 1/4th and hope to hell you cocked the shutter before you miss the golden opportunity... It takes me about 10~15 minutes to get everything set up properly when I'm using 8X10 view camera....but the results of a properly executed image on 8X10 especially with a high resolution film like Kodak Tech pan (theoretical maximum resolution is in excess of 600LP/mm) Inspite of all the advancements and convenience of digital photography, I STILL dream of an 8x10, a killer Schneider lens and Velvia pulled to iso 40...you, obviously, have experienced that, lucky bum. Very, very fine work indeed. Do you ever use your digital to set exposure for your 8x10? Cheers, Cameron

05-21-2009, 08:37 AM	#63
Cambo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,016	Never heard that? Originally posted by jeffkrol I think I need an indecent light meter myself. That's an OLD one... Cheers, Cameron

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05-21-2009, 08:35 AM	#61
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by Digitalis ...use an indecent light meter to set your exposure I think I need an indecent light meter myself.

05-21-2009, 08:39 AM	#64
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by jeffkrol I think I need an indecent light meter myself. ROFL...I think I need one myself.

05-21-2009, 08:46 AM	#65
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by Cambo Inspite of all the advancements and convenience of digital photography, I STILL dream of an 8x10, a killer Schneider lens and Velvia pulled to iso 40...you, obviously, have experienced that, lucky bum. Very, very fine work indeed. Do you ever use your digital to set exposure for your 8x10? Cheers, Cameron I prefer B&W film on larger formats, I don't like Velvia at all...each to his own but I like 4X5 and larger formats because of the tonalities they are capable of reproducing, Velvia wrecks all attempts at subtle tonality and it's reciprocity characteristic is less than stellar. mind you, I enjoyed Provia on 4X5 from time to time. And I prefer Rodenstock lenses especially their APO Sironar-S series, though I do own a fair number of Schneider and Nikkor LF lenses.

05-21-2009, 09:20 AM	#66
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by Digitalis you're dead wrong mate, landscape photography often involves ... (lots of bust your but panic work) Hey, I shoot a ton of architectural so I get where you are coming from but I couldn't give a flip what my flash synch speed is when I'm on an architectural shoot either. My point is that there isn't a single flash enhanced image in your portfolio. Wouldn't you like to be able to pop a little fill into the shadows on your Dirtbike Enduro Challenge shot without having to drop the shutter speed? Please don't take that as a criticism of the shot, it's not. It was the just only thing I could find in your portfolio to use as an example of something that might matter to me. I can see every spoke on the wheels at 1/640. What would the spokes look like at 1/250? How about 1/180? The only way to freeze the spokes in that shot is to keep the shutter speed up which means flash is off limits. I can understand why you don't give a rip about something that is fairly irrelevant to you. What I don't understand is why you are trying to convince me that it shouldn't be relevant to me. It matters, and it matters big time to some of us.

05-21-2009, 09:33 AM	#67
ryan s Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Madison, WI Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,383	Well...this may or may not be my last response to this (mostly ridiculous) thread, especially since RH posted then ran. I'm particular about my stuff...everything...almost to the point of being OCD (and that's no hyperbole). It took 6 months to decide to buy the K10. I hate the shutter sound, I hate that ISO 1600 is almost unusable, and I hate the 4 way controller and OK buttons. That's it. Those are the only things I can truly say I "hate" about this camera. Know what? It's great otherwise. I can't change it..."it is what it is." That's why I'm so happy about the K-7...it should solve those issues. I could have gotten a 40D instead which would have solved those things...I would have given up all the features for which I love my Pentax so much, however. The improvements the K-7 brings in all other areas are pure icing on the cake. For Digitalis and Wheatfield...I respect the hell out of people who still use MF and LF these days. Keep it up

05-21-2009, 09:42 AM	#68
dave sz Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: carpentersville, IL Posts: 693	Originally posted by Digitalis like you ryan I roll my eyes when I see people getting a their pants in a knot over the sync speed...alot of those older cameras I mentioned with sync speeds below 1/180s were all considered professional cameras. And photographers used them with flash and managed to produce superb results. So cameras shouldn't evolve then? That's what you're saying? Or you're saying show with what you have? Why aren't others allowed to moan about it? Why can't hey have these things just so that getting those superb images is just a tad bit easier? Defending a lack of a feature or he short coming of it is more pointless than complaining about features of a camera that is already finalized and in production. Except that these complaints might get the feature into a future model while not saying anything or saying it isn't needed, won' progress a damn thing...

05-21-2009, 09:49 AM	#69
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Maybe the answer is not camera related but flash related. What would it take to create a lightweight, battery powered flash that would burn for 1/180 of a second at full power? Do that, and anything faster than 1/180 is covered. Of course, for a camera like the K-7 it might make more sense to just use a portable video light instead of flash for some of my outdoor work.

05-21-2009, 09:49 AM	#70
CreV New Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: sweden Posts: 23	Nobody knows if the camera Allows syncing beyond 1/180 without HSS? My K10d simply turns off the hotshoe while a canikon would not. I think turning off the hotshoe at faster speeds than X-sync is worse than x-sync is 1/180. Should be a firmware fix?

05-21-2009, 10:02 AM	#71
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by ryan s Well...this may or may not be my last response to this (mostly ridiculous) thread, especially since RH posted then ran. It took 6 months to decide to buy the K10. I hate the shutter sound, I hate that ISO 1600 is almost unusable, and I hate the 4 way controller and OK buttons. ... That's why I'm so happy about the K-7...it should solve those issues. ... Run a guy off then criticize him for leaving. That is (mostly ridiculous) Like you, I love my K10D, except for two of the issues you mentioned and... a couple of issues the K-7 doesn't solve. Sucks to be me hu?

05-21-2009, 10:06 AM	#72
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Maybe the answer is not camera related but flash related. What would it take to create a lightweight, battery powered flash that would burn for 1/180 of a second at full power? Do that, and anything faster than 1/180 is covered. Of course, for a camera like the K-7 it might make more sense to just use a portable video light instead of flash for some of my outdoor work. A lot. I have a 2000WS Norman power pack that burns about that long at full power. I believe the Metz 60 burns for close to that long at full power. High speed sync is actually still the domain of flash bulbs that burn for relatively long time frames, but modern shutters don't synchronize with them. High speed sync now is done by pulsing the flash. Unfortunately, it cuts down on flash range by a huge amount, so isn't practical if the subject isn't fairly close. The best answer is still to have a shutter with a higher sync speed, or with the elecronic "shutters" being used in some of the other maker's cameras for this purpose.

05-21-2009, 10:09 AM	#73
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by CreV Nobody knows if the camera Allows syncing beyond 1/180 without HSS? My K10d simply turns off the hotshoe while a canikon would not. I think turning off the hotshoe at faster speeds than X-sync is worse than x-sync is 1/180. Should be a firmware fix? I couldn't agree more. I can't think of a good reason for Pentax to disable flash beyond the synch speed unless they are concerned about amateur photographers scratching their heads over the dark edges they are getting with a flash. I imagine those same photographers might be scratching their head over why the *x@#$% flash wont fire at all (not that I would know anyone personally that might have spent a few frustrating minutes weeping uncontrollably and beating their head on the wall the first time that happened to them )

05-21-2009, 10:17 AM	#74
ryan s Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Madison, WI Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,383	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Run a guy off then criticize him for leaving. That is (mostly ridiculous) Like you, I love my K10D, except for two of the issues you mentioned and... a couple of issues the K-7 doesn't solve. Sucks to be me hu? Hello again I deal with my cameras' (plural "cameras") shortcomings...there is not one camera that can do everything, yet. Maybe not ever...maybe in the next 5 years...who knows at the rate of technology. As far as I can tell...the sync speed is the only Pentax didn't touch or improve in some way on the whole K-7 camera.

05-21-2009, 10:23 AM	#75
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Maybe the answer is not camera related but flash related. What would it take to create a lightweight, battery powered flash that would burn for 1/180 of a second at full power? Do that, and anything faster than 1/180 is covered. This is exactly the opposite of how hotshoe strobes work. They always fire at full brightness, but the amount of light in the exposure is limited by cutting short the duration of the burst. As I said elsewhere, the AF540FGZ probably takes around 1/400th of a second to put out the (meaningful portion of the) full pulse. The Metz AF-1 flashes are less powerful in this regard, taking 1/125th of a second (by their numbers, not a guess) — so they're already worse than the sync speed if a full-power burst is needed. Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Of course, for a camera like the K-7 it might make more sense to just use a portable video light instead of flash for some of my outdoor work. Or other studio-style lighting. Yeah.