Possible Major Constraint on the 1/180s X-Sync Limitation

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-26-2009, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

... I wish I had a nickle for every time I've pondered whether I would be happier today with a D200/D70 combo than I would with my K10D/K100D combo. The honest answer is that I had very high hopes that the next Pentax camera would solve the quandary for me once and for all. It did.

Edit: For clarification, I came so close to switching brands last year when some of my commissions forced me to start adding more expensive lenses and accessories to my kit, effectively locking myself into the Pentax system for the next year or two. Overall, I think the K-7 affirms that I made the right decision. I'm sure I would be very happy shooting Nikon today, but certainly no happier than I am shooting Pentax.

Just edited the above post for clarification. As disappointing as the 1/180 synch speed is to me, it's only one feature. I'm not sure yet if I will buy a K-7, but I am satisfied that I made the right short term decision in sticking with Pentax.

Truth is, if I do eventually switch to Nikon, it will probably have a lot more to do with availability and local support base (both borrowable and rentable gear, as well as nearby repair centers) than any feature on the camera, including synch speed. I have a buddy that will let me borrow his D70, and another one that will let me borrow his D200/D300 and nice lens line-up any time I want. My only Pentax buddy shoots weddings and portraits with an Ist-D. The mooch factor is heavily weighted in Nikon's favor.

and · 05-26-2009, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

We've gone over this several times. The gating trick on CCD sensors will not work on CMOS sensors. At least not the way it has been done in the past.

I was responding to the post about pentax waiting for samsung to make some electronic shutter on the cmos chip, saying if pentax wanted to do that they had the chance when they were using the sony chip which did have it but they choose not to so why now.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-27-2009, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by Photomy

What is the major contraint on allowing the camera shutter speed to go higher than sync speed and still take a photo with a darkened area? Some subjects can be great for this. Nikon, and Canon both do not limit shutter speed to sync speed. Why does Pentax do this? AND, this is something that could be easily chanaged in firm ware. Just add an override option in the menu somewhere.

I e-mailed Imaging Resources and they confirmed that the hot shoe on the K-7 still goes dead above 1/180. Bummer...

Prognathous · 05-27-2009, 10:41 AM

Which shutter mechanism would you guys prefer:

1. K20D noise level with 1/250 X-sync (around 40% faster)
2. K7 noise level (around 40% quieter) with 1/180 X-sync

I'd take #2 without thinking twice.

Prog.

falconeye · 05-27-2009, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by Prognathous

Which shutter mechanism would you guys prefer:

1. K20D noise level with 1/250 X-sync (around 40% faster)
2. K7 noise level (around 40% quieter) with 1/180 X-sync

Why can't we have a shutter gearbox?

nanok · 05-28-2009, 12:19 AM

so as to avoid people like you (and me) trying it in reverse ("just because you can")?

edit: do make it a cvt, please (with manual override).

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-28-2009, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Prognathous

Which shutter mechanism would you guys prefer:

1. K20D noise level with 1/250 X-sync (around 40% faster)
2. K7 noise level (around 40% quieter) with 1/180 X-sync

I'd take #2 without thinking twice.

Prog.

I'd take #1 without thinking twice.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-28-2009, 03:30 PM

After giving this a bit of thought I've reached the following conclusion. It's the same shutter we've always had. They dampened the mirror slap, that's all. Aside from carrying over the PC port from the K20D and adding a little power to the pop-up flash I don't see any improvements over the K10D's flash support.

It had nothing to do with the size limitations of the body. It simply wasn't important enough to mess with in Pentax's estimation. I don't know if it would have affected the final cost by a nickle or $100, but either way, it would have been worth at lot more to me. Maybe next time.

**Digitalis** · 05-28-2009, 04:22 PM

the K10D's shutter couldn't do 1/8000th, and it couldn't do 5 FPS. Secondly I think they have revised the mirror control system in order to make it quicker and quieter. have you ever heard a fire it's shutter K10 with mirror lock up mode...the shutter itself is very loud.

**DAZ** · 05-28-2009, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

After giving this a bit of thought I've reached the following conclusion. It's the same shutter we've always had. They dampened the mirror slap, that's all. Aside from carrying over the PC port from the K20D and adding a little power to the pop-up flash I don't see any improvements over the K10D's flash support.

It had nothing to do with the size limitations of the body. It simply wasn't important enough to mess with in Pentax's estimation. I don't know if it would have affected the final cost by a nickle or $100, but either way, it would have been worth at lot more to me. Maybe next time.

I think I read some were (Ned Bunnell Blog K-7 Brochure) that the PC port now has high voltage protection on it. Not saying that makes up for the limitation for you just one little add thing.

DAZ

mattdm · 05-28-2009, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

It had nothing to do with the size limitations of the body. It simply wasn't important enough to mess with in Pentax's estimation. I don't know if it would have affected the final cost by a nickle or $100, but either way, it would have been worth at lot more to me. Maybe next time.

Don't forget the other consequence of messing with things — potential new bugs.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-28-2009, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

the K10D's shutter couldn't do 1/8000th, and it couldn't do 5 FPS. Secondly I think they have revised the mirror control system in order to make it quicker and quieter. have you ever heard a fire it's shutter K10 with mirror lock up mode...the shutter itself is very loud.

1/8000 was just a matter of allowing the second curtain to start closing a little sooner, 5 FPS is a result of image processor improvements, and yes, I've heard the shutter on my K10D in mirror lock up mode several times. It's the same shutter.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-28-2009, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by mattdm

Don't forget the other consequence of messing with things — potential new bugs.

True, but that goes with any progress. Maybe Pentax just felt their engineers had enough on their plate already. I definitely commend them highly for the refinements on the rest of the machine. It was a pretty full load.

nosnoop · 05-28-2009, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle

1/8000 was just a matter of allowing the second curtain to start closing a little sooner, 5 FPS is a result of image processor improvements,

If it was so simple, they would have done it in K20D or earlier.
No, the 5FPS requires shutter (+mirror box) upgrade. It may not be a major redesign, but you definitely need component upgrades, similar to SAFOX VIII+ over SAFOX VIII.

Sure, faster shutter speed means making the slit smaller. However, it is not as trivial as "just a matter of..." Otherwise, you would see it as standard feature in all DSLRs.

GoldenWreckedAngle · 05-29-2009, 06:44 AM

According to John Carlson, Product Manager Imaging Systems, Pentax USA, the shutter was not redesigned.

I'll gladly conceed that I could be wrong but I seriously doubt John is. It's the same shutter.

05-28-2009, 03:30 PM	#143
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	After giving this a bit of thought I've reached the following conclusion. It's the same shutter we've always had. They dampened the mirror slap, that's all. Aside from carrying over the PC port from the K20D and adding a little power to the pop-up flash I don't see any improvements over the K10D's flash support. It had nothing to do with the size limitations of the body. It simply wasn't important enough to mess with in Pentax's estimation. I don't know if it would have affected the final cost by a nickle or $100, but either way, it would have been worth at lot more to me. Maybe next time. Last edited by GoldenWreckedAngle; 05-28-2009 at 03:40 PM.

05-28-2009, 08:27 PM	#149
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle 1/8000 was just a matter of allowing the second curtain to start closing a little sooner, 5 FPS is a result of image processor improvements, If it was so simple, they would have done it in K20D or earlier. No, the 5FPS requires shutter (+mirror box) upgrade. It may not be a major redesign, but you definitely need component upgrades, similar to SAFOX VIII+ over SAFOX VIII. Sure, faster shutter speed means making the slit smaller. However, it is not as trivial as "just a matter of..." Otherwise, you would see it as standard feature in all DSLRs. Last edited by nosnoop; 05-28-2009 at 08:35 PM.

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05-26-2009, 08:38 AM	#136
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle ... I wish I had a nickle for every time I've pondered whether I would be happier today with a D200/D70 combo than I would with my K10D/K100D combo. The honest answer is that I had very high hopes that the next Pentax camera would solve the quandary for me once and for all. It did. Edit: For clarification, I came so close to switching brands last year when some of my commissions forced me to start adding more expensive lenses and accessories to my kit, effectively locking myself into the Pentax system for the next year or two. Overall, I think the K-7 affirms that I made the right decision. I'm sure I would be very happy shooting Nikon today, but certainly no happier than I am shooting Pentax. Just edited the above post for clarification. As disappointing as the 1/180 synch speed is to me, it's only one feature. I'm not sure yet if I will buy a K-7, but I am satisfied that I made the right short term decision in sticking with Pentax. Truth is, if I do eventually switch to Nikon, it will probably have a lot more to do with availability and local support base (both borrowable and rentable gear, as well as nearby repair centers) than any feature on the camera, including synch speed. I have a buddy that will let me borrow his D70, and another one that will let me borrow his D200/D300 and nice lens line-up any time I want. My only Pentax buddy shoots weddings and portraits with an Ist-D. The mooch factor is heavily weighted in Nikon's favor.

05-26-2009, 08:43 AM	#137
and Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,476	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle We've gone over this several times. The gating trick on CCD sensors will not work on CMOS sensors. At least not the way it has been done in the past. I was responding to the post about pentax waiting for samsung to make some electronic shutter on the cmos chip, saying if pentax wanted to do that they had the chance when they were using the sony chip which did have it but they choose not to so why now.

05-27-2009, 06:14 AM	#138
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by Photomy What is the major contraint on allowing the camera shutter speed to go higher than sync speed and still take a photo with a darkened area? Some subjects can be great for this. Nikon, and Canon both do not limit shutter speed to sync speed. Why does Pentax do this? AND, this is something that could be easily chanaged in firm ware. Just add an override option in the menu somewhere. I e-mailed Imaging Resources and they confirmed that the hot shoe on the K-7 still goes dead above 1/180. Bummer...

05-27-2009, 10:41 AM	#139
Prognathous Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 102	Which shutter mechanism would you guys prefer: 1. K20D noise level with 1/250 X-sync (around 40% faster) 2. K7 noise level (around 40% quieter) with 1/180 X-sync I'd take #2 without thinking twice. Prog.

05-27-2009, 12:11 PM	#140
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Prognathous Which shutter mechanism would you guys prefer: 1. K20D noise level with 1/250 X-sync (around 40% faster) 2. K7 noise level (around 40% quieter) with 1/180 X-sync Why can't we have a shutter gearbox?

05-28-2009, 12:19 AM	#141
nanok Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 969	so as to avoid people like you (and me) trying it in reverse ("just because you can")? edit: do make it a cvt, please (with manual override).

05-28-2009, 07:42 AM	#142
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by Prognathous Which shutter mechanism would you guys prefer: 1. K20D noise level with 1/250 X-sync (around 40% faster) 2. K7 noise level (around 40% quieter) with 1/180 X-sync I'd take #2 without thinking twice. Prog. I'd take #1 without thinking twice.

05-28-2009, 04:22 PM	#144
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	the K10D's shutter couldn't do 1/8000th, and it couldn't do 5 FPS. Secondly I think they have revised the mirror control system in order to make it quicker and quieter. have you ever heard a fire it's shutter K10 with mirror lock up mode...the shutter itself is very loud.

05-28-2009, 06:47 PM	#145
DAZ Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Everett, WA USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 744	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle After giving this a bit of thought I've reached the following conclusion. It's the same shutter we've always had. They dampened the mirror slap, that's all. Aside from carrying over the PC port from the K20D and adding a little power to the pop-up flash I don't see any improvements over the K10D's flash support. It had nothing to do with the size limitations of the body. It simply wasn't important enough to mess with in Pentax's estimation. I don't know if it would have affected the final cost by a nickle or $100, but either way, it would have been worth at lot more to me. Maybe next time. I think I read some were (Ned Bunnell Blog K-7 Brochure) that the PC port now has high voltage protection on it. Not saying that makes up for the limitation for you just one little add thing. DAZ

05-28-2009, 06:55 PM	#146
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle It had nothing to do with the size limitations of the body. It simply wasn't important enough to mess with in Pentax's estimation. I don't know if it would have affected the final cost by a nickle or $100, but either way, it would have been worth at lot more to me. Maybe next time. Don't forget the other consequence of messing with things — potential new bugs.

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05-28-2009, 07:35 PM	#147
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by Digitalis the K10D's shutter couldn't do 1/8000th, and it couldn't do 5 FPS. Secondly I think they have revised the mirror control system in order to make it quicker and quieter. have you ever heard a fire it's shutter K10 with mirror lock up mode...the shutter itself is very loud. 1/8000 was just a matter of allowing the second curtain to start closing a little sooner, 5 FPS is a result of image processor improvements, and yes, I've heard the shutter on my K10D in mirror lock up mode several times. It's the same shutter.

05-28-2009, 07:44 PM	#148
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	Originally posted by mattdm Don't forget the other consequence of messing with things — potential new bugs. True, but that goes with any progress. Maybe Pentax just felt their engineers had enough on their plate already. I definitely commend them highly for the refinements on the rest of the machine. It was a pretty full load.

05-29-2009, 06:44 AM	#150
GoldenWreckedAngle Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 339	According to John Carlson, Product Manager Imaging Systems, Pentax USA, the shutter was not redesigned. I'll gladly conceed that I could be wrong but I seriously doubt John is. It's the same shutter.