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05-23-2009, 01:39 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Timarete Quote
The portrait has blown highlights and soft resolution. Why would they post something like that as an official shot? You'd think they could use the best possible glass and keep snapping until they get it right.
I love high-key portraiture

QuoteOriginally posted by mickey Quote
I don't think that's the case at all.
The majority of posters here have posted they are somewhere between satisfied to overwhelmed with the K-7 from what they've seen so far.
Then you come here, as usual, and post negatively about it, and blame everyone else for not wanting to believe your negative comments.

Agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I say you try to force yours as gospel.

To me, it looks like a great piece of kit.
This Sunday, I will get to try it at an event in Tokyo.
Looking forward to hearing how you like it.

Regarding your statement on opinion, I have a friend from back in school, who is exactly the way you describe. Where it is not a matter of logic anymore. He can be very hard to reach, on some subjects.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
a child would destroy the world if it had the power.

- Sigmund Freud.

I think there is some truth in this, though a strong statement



QuoteOriginally posted by Stefan Carey Quote
It is the same as last time (K-m), and the time before (K20).
New Pentax Camera > sample shots released > "somehow not right". Predictable and irritating. I am surprised Pentax keep failing to realise what goes on in these forums, and when a new camera is released people love making snap judgements based on one photographer's personal preferences in a few samples.
I think judgments based on a few samples posted on another site in another language is unscientific, emotional and imprecise. We don't even know what the page with the sample say. (Pentax pull your finger out and post samples with English text, or remind your web marketing team what they're employed for.)
Making big statements based on a few JPG samples is like judging a meal based on how well cooked one pea is, e.g. one pea is slightly uncooked, let's throw the entire meal away.
Some statements appear to obsess over valid minor details, made more than likely with the right intentions. OK Ricehigh, so there might be some underexposure, but what are the benefits to a photographer of this design approach? Are there any? Will it help my workflow? Could it help me find more detail when I really need it? I think the proof is in the beautiful images we can make with these great cameras and lenses.

Supposedly my K-m produced rubbish jpgs based on the initial samples when they came out late last year. But then we see otherwise as soon as people take a few shots of their own.
Why not wait for a while. And cut each other some slack. RH's intentions are probably to help Pentax be a better manufacturer, but his way of displaying these intentions are often too forceful to be understood as helpful.
These shots are so beautiful, I wish I could take pictures like that. Are they from the DFA 100/2.8 macro ?



QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
@RiceHigh:

Thanks for having a careful eye on the exposure topic. I see your reason for being cautious. As for the four images, I had an examination as well. So, let's share our results:

RESULTS:
All four images: K-7 firmware 1.0. JPG filters and shadow processing unknown.

Img #1: Matrix, +0.3EV, histogram slightly clipped in the highlights, with some room in the blacks. Would have been "perfect" at 0EV. But +0.3EV gives it more "popp".

Img #2: Center-weighted, +0.7EV, histogram has some room on both sides. Would have been perfect at +1EV.

Img #3: Matrix, +0.7EV, histogram minimally clipped on both sides. A perfect "to the right" exposure would probably have been at +0.3 or 0EV, with shadows recoverable in Raw. But +0.7EV gives it more "popp".

Img #4: Center-weighted, +0.7EV, histogram has some room on both sides. A perfect "to the right" exposure would probably have been at +1.3EV.


Let's have a closer look at Img #4 as it seems the most "underexposed". There are 77 metering zone read-outs. Unfortunately, PhotoMe only display the first 16 of them, thinking it is a traditional Pentax meter
These first 16 readings (probably the upper edge) is between 8.8 and 9.3 EV. The effective EV of the exposure is 11EV (incl. +0.7EV compensation -- would be 10.3 without).

So, the K-7 "metered" about 1 and 1.5 EV "brighter" than the image's upper edge, i.e., a lot brighter than the center. But as we know, it should have metered 3 EV brighter Not much more we can say here before we know all 77 metering values.


So, what must be our verdict here:

For Spot Metering:
The test would have been if a 18% grey card would have come out 11% grey (with the sRGB profile, I believe, the right number was 11%). No test case supplied in the samples. This is an industry norm. A vendor has no freedom here (But some vendors are known to break the standard for non-pro cameras here. So far, Pentax (D)SLRs have always adhered to the standard, though.

For Center-weighted metering:
Two test cases supplied (incl. Img #4). Manufacturers have more freedom in interpreting metering values. However, there is only a single metering value available: the weighted average over zones. Here, it doesn't make any significant difference if the average is over 16 or 77 values. Almost identical result. If the average metering would be interpreted as 18% grey, most images would be heavily underexposed (think of snow ) So, most vendors go for some arbitrary figure higher than 18%. If you know this figure for various vendors, you can cross-compare vendors by adjusting EV compensation for the respective target luminance. Pentax is known to be more conservative than some other vendors here which, in the first place, is a good thing. No final conclusion for center-weighted metering can be reached because the center meter readings are not known.

For Matrix metering:
Two test cases supplied. Manufacturers here can combine position and value of all metering values, not just a single value. E.g., they could guess the scene type, or use the variance between zones to guess the 0.01% clip-off barrier, etc. This is the only mode yet of interest with the K-7. Both supplied samples would have been absolutely perfectly exposed without EV compensation applied.


Final verdict:

The exposure in the 4 samples leaves nothing to be desired, from what can be told from available data.
Thanks for your, as always, thorough and well balanced evaluation


QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
For the days Pentax didn't listen to me and reacted and rectify their problems, their sales had been declining from year to year! Now, I guess they have done something right and I bet the sales will go up again!
The K10 was a homerun, a great success that landed Pentax two digit percentage of market share in important areas, and putting them comfortably third place in DSLR market.
If you were criticizing the K10, then it could hardly have had much of an impact. That one was a major comeback.

You’ve been helpful at sometimes providing some info that I was missing. And bringing interesting input, as of late.
But if you quickly jump to conclusions, or base it on false data, then you can go wrong again, like what happened here :
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/45726-pentax-slips-1-6...tml#post474484

(BTW, this is not a personal critique, as I said, I liked that you provided some info on a difference between Samsung and Pentax, for me. And I read with interest your Pentax FF glass, on the Eos 5D).

I think it is great, if the K7 is the camera that you wanted Pentax to produce, and that it will make you happy.
Just don’t take the fun out of your photography, by focusing on miniscule details, when the fact is that all brands will have their quirky ways.
Best of luck with it

05-23-2009, 01:51 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
So, here you go again. If you do not have any evidence, don't make any defamation on me further!
Your behavior is the evidence. The hard fact that you will complain about the K-7, blowing every tiny thing that may look as an issue out of proportions, then posting here to let us know your findings (yes, I can read the future!)

Every Pentaxian was talking about the new K since later April, why I am alone could not post what I heard and knew at my blog?
Did I ever said you can't? It's your arrogant way you're promoting your blog that's annoying. "Hey, look at me, I have a blog!"
Otherwise, you are offering from time to time useful information - I'll give you credit for that. Too bad it comes with a lot of "Pentax suxx" ballast - if only you are ever able to change that...

Mind you that I had and have no NDA with Pentax and I have no relationship of any kind with them, directly or indirectly. So, whats the problem? You were the only one whom did not discuss the new K during the period?

I am not "pretended" to be impressed with the K-7. The K-7 is really impressive - nothing arguable here. But then whether it will be really living up to the hypes would be another story, practically.

Don't put words on my mouth and put so many guilts on me unethically further, this only hurts your own integrity and image.
I find you to be a Pentax-hater, which uses pseudo-science to "prove" his point, collecting half truths from Internet, having strong opinions about things he never experimented itself while ignoring any other opinion, even despite hard facts. Visit ricehigh.blogspot.com for details
I will speak my mind on this matter, I was never afraid to do so. And my integrity is not in any danger.

I have used any Pentax DSLR ever produced and many people has reported about the problems of their metering system (and AF as well). If you do not have any problem with your K20D, thats fine. But that will not change what my opinions and others as well for those who have found problems.
Nothing will change your opinions, not even hard facts.
Btw, do you know there is a significant difference between the K10D and K20D (and latter cameras)? While the K10D indeed has a tendency towards underexposure (but even this was lens- dependent, at least with my camera/lenses), the K20D does not. And even the K10D is very much usable, there is no reason to blow out or proportions this issue.
Now we have a perfectly expose-to-the-right measurement from the K-7, but hey, what do we hear from you? "It's underexposing! It's underexposing! The K-7 is nowhere near my perfect Canon!". Pathetic.

That would be my last repsonse to you. I found that to "discuss" with people like you is of real "nonsense" and just a waste of my valuable time!
Oh, my. You're preparing some sort of "Look how much the K-7 underexposes!" article? I apologize, I shouldn't detract you from your precious work.
Since I'm not new to Pentax and I have some sort of technical knowledge, I can easily find faults with all the cameras I've ever tried (more so, with the ones I've had). I could write several pages about issues I've personally had or I personally know about (reading on internet doesn't count), so I know very well Pentax is far from perfect.
Why I don't start a blog then, complaining? Because unlike you, I can also find a lot of good things about Pentax, things that makes me stay here even if the competition is ahead in some areas. A blog only for whining? How ridiculous is that?
And seeing beautiful pictures made by pentaxians with even "lesser" equipment than I have, I would be quite ashamed to arrogantly blame my camera instead of realizing the obvious: that I, the one behind it, still have so more to learn.

This being said, can I possibly ask you to be more reasonable, and at least don't try to use a sample measured at the limit of clipping as "proof" for underexposure? Nope, I think it would be useless; so I won't even try.
Good luck with your article, I'll leave you at it for now.

Uhh... did I wrote that much?
It looks this has gone for too long; sorry, folks. I've more than made my point, so no need to continue further.

Last edited by Kunzite; 05-23-2009 at 01:59 PM.
05-28-2009, 11:57 AM   #108
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On proper exposure with DSLRs, there was an older thread about it at DPr as well :
I never realized just *how* badly non-Pentax cameras overexpose... [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Last edited by Jonson PL; 05-29-2009 at 05:32 AM.
05-28-2009, 12:57 PM   #109
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We can wait an official comment from Pentax regarding this samples. Right now the english website is still not updated. Anybody with production model and samples already speak up.

05-29-2009, 05:28 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Still is a histogram I can love.... to start.
Disclaimer..........ONLY early sample images.........

QuoteOriginally posted by melander Quote
65% fill light in LR2. Just too see how noise worked out



Full size: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3362/3552214940_3e547848ac_o.jpg

You‘all must be very good photographers. Had I taken these pictures, I would be somewhat satisfied

QuoteOriginally posted by Gio645 Quote
Me personally, don't want to execute you. I'm just criticizing you. As simple as that. No one is above criticism.
Very true






QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Nope, you're totally wrong. Just the 300D had been so much better than any Pentax DSLRs up till now, as far as exposure and metering accuracy is concerned!
The Rebels are generally criticized for hard to trust evaluative metering. And to begin with, they didn’t even feature spot metering. And many didn’t have any flash exposure compensation either. But maybe you do not want the ability to change exposure, according to needs ?

Some people wants to tweak their exposure, and have full control. But to each his own.

QuoteOriginally posted by melander Quote
So you admit that you want a portrait program, landscape program etc then. Cause how would the camera know that you would like to sacrifice highlights for better skintone?
I don’t think there is anything wrong with wanting to be on the safe side, and have the camera be as precise as one would like, (or ones personal preference is). Particularly if you shoot JPEG, (though these can be tweaked as well).


It is just lately that I started adding EV when in snow scenes.
Or removing EV, when shooting white/bright animals in dark surroundings.
I would say that it is more for advanced photography, but I'm still a novice


QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I have used any Pentax DSLR ever produced and many people has reported about the problems of their metering system (and AF as well). If you do not have any problem with your K20D, thats fine.
So it is also peachy that Roland gets along fine with his Pentax ?


I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’ve just had a problem understanding this whole EV issue. When many Pro’s actually preached Pentax for the great metering, and that it was one of the strong sides.

Last edited by Jonson PL; 05-29-2009 at 05:48 AM.
05-29-2009, 05:43 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
The Rebels are generally criticized for hard to trust evaluative metering. .
All Canons are criticised for lousy meter. Even their pro models. When Andy Rouse started to use Pentax along with Canons, his reaction was "finally a meter I can trust".
06-03-2009, 11:43 AM   #112
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I hate it, when my Pentax overexposes. I find it really hard to save the image afterwards.
Here are two examples, (both were from RAW).
I had even added extra EV, just for general photography, as suggested by RH :








There is one homepage that I like, where there are a lot of good practical tips on how to get the most out of your photography. Here is one of the articles :
When Black and White Are Gray - Photo Tips @ Earthbound Light
06-03-2009, 04:36 PM   #113
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Any camera can overexpose, because it cannot read your mind, nor can it perfectly read a scene, no matter how many zones it has. One of the first things I learned was how to adjust exposure based on the scene as it looked to me, not the camera.

I've forgotten a lot of that because it is so much easier with digital. Basically one has a highly accurate (though not perfect) light meter included free with every camera. And free "film" too - so chimp away!

Out of habit I meter a scene before I have anything to shoot, so I have some idea what the camera will do when a shot opportunity presents itself. Very overcast days full of glare are one bad scenario. Large areas of white (snow, reflections from leaves, polar bears) are another.

06-03-2009, 10:55 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
I hate it, when my Pentax overexposes. I find it really hard to save the image afterwards.
Here are two examples, (both were from RAW).
I had even added extra EV, just for general photography, as suggested by RH :
Exposing to the right isn't always the correct thing to do. In your images there is a wide dynamic range from the white fur to the black cave entrance and your meter is trying to balance all of that. By exposing to the right you are just going to blow out the white fur.

You could either meter off some middle tone or if you decide the white fur is the most important thing to expose properly, you could spot meter off that and open up say 1.5 to 2 EV to keep the fur white (and not middle grey) ...with digital you have the benefit of checking your image immediately (chimping) and making the minor adjustment to get it just right.

From some of the reports on the new K-7, it's multi zone metering does a much better job than the current generation of DSLR's. However, at the end of the day, you will always need to use your own judgment on exposure.
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