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05-24-2009, 06:13 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
K7高感提高了吗?K7与K20D高感控噪表现*图PK,猫慎入 - 无忌论坛

Pre-release firmware, so this is not really fair, but it reminded me how good the K20D is at 1600.

Apologies if this is a dupe.

Ray
The usual half-baked test comparing raw developed (and NR'd) images to jpeg from an unknown state of firmware and with an unknown (probably non existent) NR setting...

... for some reason, there HAS to be such threads for about a month until production camera is released and for some reason, people will always try to decipher the new camera IQ from that... and it never fails to .... fail!!


Anyway, from this test, the new camera IQ is crap, let's move on to the next one shall we...?:ugh:

05-24-2009, 07:03 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
The usual half-baked test comparing raw developed (and NR'd) images to jpeg from an unknown state of firmware and with an unknown (probably non existent) NR setting...

... for some reason, there HAS to be such threads for about a month until production camera is released and for some reason, people will always try to decipher the new camera IQ from that... and it never fails to .... fail!!


Anyway, from this test, the new camera IQ is crap, let's move on to the next one shall we...?:ugh:
Good catch: according to the EXIF data, the K20D file was shot in RAW and made a trip through Photoshop CS3 before being presented, while the K-7 jpg was direct from camera. Other than that, the two photos were taken with different lenses, of different subjects, on different days.

Rather than being a controlled test, the photographer probably had limited time with the K-7 and snuck his SD card in the slot, then quickly shot the images we see here (and probably without the Pentax rep's knowledge or permission). Then a day later, he tried to take similar shots at home using his K20D (though, he shot in RAW and used ACR which automatically applies chroma noise reduction).

So I think it's pretty obvious that this is anything but a fair test. Let's wait a bit before jumping to conclusions, eh? [edit: Not directed at lol101; I get that you were joking in your last sentence]

Last edited by sezme; 05-24-2009 at 07:04 AM. Reason: clarity of meaning
05-24-2009, 08:09 PM   #33
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Another test that proves nothing

It's not even in English. It's not even final firmware

Worthless nonsense.
05-25-2009, 02:00 AM   #34
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I'm sorry, but I don't get the idea of making comparisions with a pre-production and early beta sample to a production camera. What is the point with that? Wouldn't it be more fair to compare pre-production and unfinished K-7 to pre-production K20D?

This whole thread is so pointless.

05-25-2009, 04:08 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
I don't get the idea of making comparisions with a pre-production and early beta sample to a production camera.
Not exactly.

The quality seen is a lower limit for the quality to expect from the production model.

Inequalities aren't exactly pointless and some even carry names like "Triangle Inequality"
05-26-2009, 08:27 PM   #36
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Like These?

QuoteOriginally posted by Stefan Carey Quote
It's not even in English. It's not even final firmware

Worthless nonsense.
First of all, perhaps worthless or nonsense to you, which is fine, but exactly what did your post contribute? Nothing.

Also, I presume that you have also posted similar sentiments to threads like these (among hundreds of others):

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/58822-quality-k-7-video.html

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/61171-preview-k-7-korea.html

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/61394-k-7-distortion-ca-correcting.html

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/61344-k-7-low-light-af-improvements.html

No?

Why not? After all, everything we see or hear about this camera is based upon pre-release firmware and therefore must be wortheless nonsense right?

BTW, this IS the Pentax News and Rumors forums, not the Pentax Facts about Released Cameras forum.

Ray
05-26-2009, 10:45 PM   #37
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Cheerleading Again Roland?

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
I'm sorry, but I don't get the idea of making comparisions with a pre-production and early beta sample to a production camera. What is the point with that? Wouldn't it be more fair to compare pre-production and unfinished K-7 to pre-production K20D?

This whole thread is so pointless.
Roland, I know that you are the self-appointed Pentax cheerleader in-chief, but please at least be consistent and make similar complaints about the hundreds of other threads containing video, menu shots, performance numbers, and so on, all of which are based upon pre-release cameras.

Otherwise, how could anyone take you any more seriously than RiceHigh?

Also, be careful what you ask for as someone might take you up on your request:

K20D 1600 ISO pre-release sample (one of the samples that convinced me to buy the K20D BEFORE we ever saw images from the final production camera):

?????ASCII.jp?

K20D ISO 800 pre-release sample:

http://www.letsgodigital.org/images/artikelen/39/k20d-pictures.jpg

K20D ISO 1600 pre-release sample:

http://www.dariobonazza.com/k20d/K20D0387_1600_PS.jpg

While I am sure that the K-7 image quality will dramatically improve by release time, the pre-release K20D high iso images SPANK the few that we have seen from the K-7, just like it appears that the pre-release K-7 SPANKS the released K-20 in AF performance (a K-7 pre-release data point which you seem to NOT find so pointless for some reason:ugh.

After all, this IS the Pentax NEWS and RUMOURS forum is it not? BTW, did I miss something about only favorable news items and rumours being allowed?

Lastly, I am far from any sort of Pentax basher, and probably have been using Pentax gear for longer than most here (starting in 1978 or so), but ALL of the information about the new camera is interesting to me, not just that which the forum Nazis deem to be worthy.

I have also spent considerable amounts of money on my Pentax gear as well as on other gear dedicated to my Pentax equipmnent, so it is not as if I would like Pentax to fail.

I might even own more Pentax gear than you do:

2 x *istds
1 x K100D
1 x K10D (sold the second copy)
1 x K20D
2 x 645
1 x MZ-S (sold the second one not long ago)
1 x ZX-L

1x DA14mm
1 x FA 31 LTD
1 x DA 40mm pancake
1 x FA 43 LTD
2 x F 50mm f1.7
1 x FA 50mm f1.4
1 x FA 77 LTD
1 x DA 16-45
1 x FA 24-90
1 x DA 50-200
1 x FA 80-200
1 x DA* 16-50
1 x DA* 50-135

1 x 645 A 45mm
1 x 645 A 75mm
1 x 645 A 75mm lens shutter
1 x 645 A 150mm

Non-Pentax lenses:

Tamron 90mm macro
Tamron 28-70 f2.8
Sigma 70-210 f2.8
Sigma 135-400

I probably forgot some stuff, but who's counting?


Ray

Last edited by Ray Pulley; 05-26-2009 at 10:50 PM.
05-26-2009, 10:53 PM   #38
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very well said Ray..!!

amazing how some people are ready to vote the k-7 as camera of the year, due to its features and "great" gimmicky add-ons... but when it comes to the ONLY criteria that really matters in a camera - the IQ - and lets be honest, the examples we seen so far are nothing impressive... we are advised to simply ignore that little "glitch" in all the hype...

tsk tsk tsk... fan boys.. gotta love 'em..


Give me a "P"............ give me an "E"............

05-26-2009, 11:04 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
Seems as if we have lots of "forum police" here nowadays.
QuoteQuote:
If you think a thread is pointless, feel free to NOT read it.
QuoteQuote:
First of all, perhaps worthless or nonsense to you, which is fine, but exactly what did your post contribute? Nothing.
QuoteQuote:
Roland, I know that you are the self-appointed Pentax cheerleader in-chief
Geez, why are you getting so defensive about your post?

QuoteQuote:
After all, this IS the Pentax NEWS and RUMOURS forum is it not? BTW, did I miss something about only favorable news items and rumours being allowed?
I think you are missing the whole point.

You of course have the right to post whatever you want.
Similarly, we also have the right to post what we feel about your post or the subject of your post!

We said that comparing beta firmware pictures is a fruitless exercise; we did not ask the mod to delete or ban your post, for goodness sake! So I just don't see what prompts all the ranting from you. It is simply an exchange of different opinions, and what's wrong with that?

You are taking these things FAR too personally.
When I said it was "pointless", it was not a personal attack. It was simply my opinion, not necessary directed at you, but for ALL READERS of this post. It was a warning or a friendly advice to ALL READERS of this post that making judgment based on these beta picture would lead to a wrong conclusion of what K-7 was capable of.

Are we not allowed to say this?

Geez.
05-26-2009, 11:08 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by StephenG Quote
tsk tsk tsk... fan boys.. gotta love 'em..
Give me a "P"............ give me an "E"............
This is really getting ridiculous.
Anyone saying any positive about Pentax is automatically being accused of being a Fanboy!
This is really unnecessary, as this immediately changes an friendly discussion into personal attacks.
05-27-2009, 12:08 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by StephenG Quote
very well said Ray..!!

amazing how some people are ready to vote the k-7 as camera of the year,
Common sense my friend. Newer cameras use to have better image quality than those they replace. Except if you believe Pentax engineers are a bunch of jerks.
QuoteQuote:
due to its features and "great" gimmicky add-ons...
Features are equally important to IQ. Do you remember the whining regarding the lack of features of the K20D despite its great IQ?
QuoteQuote:
but when it comes to the ONLY criteria that really matters in a camera - the IQ - and lets be honest, the examples we seen so far are nothing impressive... we are advised to simply ignore that little "glitch" in all the hype...
IQ from preproduction cameras? I though that we will have cameras with final firmwear. I personally will buy one with finalized firmwear. I don't know about you.
QuoteQuote:
tsk tsk tsk... fan boys.. gotta love 'em..
Give me a "P"............ give me an "E"............
If I wanted to be as irrational as you are I could call you a RH devotee but I won't
05-27-2009, 11:46 AM   #42
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Geez indeed

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Geez, why are you getting so defensive about your post?
Why are you all so defensive about the K-7?


QuoteQuote:
I think you are missing the whole point.
I would say the same about you. Have you made similar posts about the other pre-release features being discussed? If you are unwilling to answer this question, you have missed my point. Of course, you have not made similar posts in other threads about he preliminary K-7 performance (those that are of a positive nature), so I am quite sure that you know exactly what my point is.

The preliminary IQ of the camera is just as legitimate to discuss as any other preliminary feature or preliminary performance data we have seen. If you think that this is not true, please elaborate, which would be far more useful than playing forum nanny.

QuoteQuote:
You of course have the right to post whatever you want.
Thanks

QuoteQuote:
Similarly, we also have the right to post what we feel about your post or the subject of your post!
No one said you didn't. I fail to see how posting statements about the thread being pointless furthers the discussion of the prelimibary K-7 IQ in any way.

QuoteQuote:
We said that comparing beta firmware pictures is a fruitless exercise; we did not ask the mod to delete or ban your post, for goodness sake! So I just don't see what prompts all the ranting from you. It is simply an exchange of different opinions, and what's wrong with that?
You will have a bit of credibility on this point when you are making the same pointless comments on all of the other threads about the pre-release K-7 functionality and performance.

QuoteQuote:
You are taking these things FAR too personally.
How do you know?

I would say that you are assuming too much and treating others like they are children who need to be "warned".

QuoteQuote:
When I said it was "pointless", it was not a personal attack. It was simply my opinion, not necessary directed at you, but for ALL READERS of this post. It was a warning or a friendly advice to ALL READERS of this post that making judgment based on these beta picture would lead to a wrong conclusion of what K-7 was capable of.
It would be hard for me to write a better definition of self-appointed forum police than what you have written above. Just where is it written that you, or anyone else for that matter, need to warn others or be in any way responsible for any conclusion they draw from anything they read here?

Are you paid by Pentax to make sure that you point out such things to others?

Perhaps you just assume that everyone else is just so stupid that only you can guide them to the real truth and keep them from drawing the wrong conclusion?

BTW, just how do you know that the images posted are not indicative of what the K-7 is capable of? As shown above, the K-20 Beta sample images were significantly better than what we have seen of the K-7 so far, and they were very much indicative of what the K-20 was capable of.

Does that mean the K-7 will be worse than the K-20? Well, if nothing else, based upon what I have seen, Pentax has some work to do just to match the K-20 IQ, and even with all of the gimmicks and new AF and so on, I have no interest in a the K-7 if IQ is not at least equal to the K-20, which is by no means class-leading in the IQ department (due to the inherently high readout noise in the sensor/ADC).

QuoteQuote:
Are we not allowed to say this?

Geez.
See the part about credibility above....

Geez indeed.

Ray
05-27-2009, 01:17 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
Why are you all so defensive about the K-7?
We are not. This is not about K-7; the same can be applied to any camera from any manufacturers. We will not compare IQ from ANY beta firmware camera period.

QuoteQuote:
Have you made similar posts about the other pre-release features being discussed?
[sigh] Because we are not talking about the same thing!

Whenever ANY camera manufacturers give out pre-production cameras to ANY reviewers / beta testers after the embargo date, ALL of them would do this under two conditions - no images from the beta camera, and no conclusive judgment of IQ based on beta camera.

And no, there is NO such restrictions on any other pre-release features, which can be freely reviewed and discussed.

Can you see the difference? If you cannot, then I can't help you either.

Beta firmware can give out images which have little resemblance to the final output. The K10D leaked beta firmware images came to mind; those were so noisy that got most people worried. It was much more noisy when compared with A100 at that time. In the end, it turns out that the final firmware has less noise than A100. If users had concluded from the K10D beta firmware images that they would go with A100 to have less noise, I would consider it to be a wrong conclusion.

QuoteQuote:
The preliminary IQ of the camera is just as legitimate to discuss as any other preliminary feature or preliminary performance data we have seen.
It is not just me, or anyone you accuse of being "fanboy"; no camera manufacturer or any reputable camera review sites would agree with you either.

QuoteQuote:
I would say that you are assuming too much and treating others like they are children who need to be "warned".
"Children"? Can you keep this type of personal characterization out of discussions?
There are many users reading this forum who are looking to buy their first DSLR. And many do not know the pitfall in making buying decision based on beta firmware pictures.

QuoteQuote:
It would be hard for me to write a better definition of self-appointed forum police than what you have written above. Just where is it written that you, or anyone else for that matter, need to warn others or be in any way responsible for any conclusion they draw from anything they read here?
This is not called forum police. This is all part of the forum discussion - and the whole point of having forum in the first place. You make a comment, and I make mine. I may or may not agree with you. I am not policing anyone. And that's why we have thread ratings as well. So are you saying that you only allow those who agree with you to post? Aren't you the forum police in this case? Or your thread guardian - trying to attack all the negative comments on your thread?

QuoteQuote:
Are you paid by Pentax to make sure that you point out such things to others?
See? You are totally missing the point. As I said, I would say the same thing for any images from any beta cameras from any manufacturers.

QuoteQuote:
Perhaps you just assume that everyone else is just so stupid that only you can guide them to the real truth and keep them from drawing the wrong conclusion?
Again, you are putting in personal characterization in your discussions.
In this case, twisting my original intention to "assume everyone else" as "so stupid".

QuoteQuote:
As shown above, the K-20 Beta sample images were significantly better than what we have seen of the K-7 so far, and they were very much indicative of what the K-20 was capable of.
There are different stages of beta firmware development. And we have no idea when the noise optimization or image optimization comes in at which stage. The firmware version gives little indication either.

QuoteQuote:
See the part about credibility above....
[shrug] Even if you don't care what the camera manufacturers want, at least all the reputable review sites agree with me.
05-27-2009, 01:18 PM   #44
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I think yoiu all miss the point about K20D high iso dont look that good. Atleast not mine.
05-27-2009, 02:22 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by melander Quote
I think yoiu all miss the point about K20D high iso dont look that good. Atleast not mine.
Good point... My ISO 1600 does not look bad at all but by far not as good as the first samples showed here. I never use ISO2500.

And as has been said comparing a production K20D with a pre release K-& is like pears and.. err not yet ripe pears....
So, later a few pre production K20D samples were posted but we still do not know what version and whether that was considered more ripe that the current K-7.
Could have been firmware 0.9 for K20D vs. 0.2 for K-7.
And personally I think the 1600 form the K20D pre production (the desert tower) doies not look significantly better than the K-7 pre - production but that could ofcourse be due to dust in the air...
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