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05-29-2009, 09:57 PM   #46
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K-7 for 2x the money killed the idea I might add 2nd K20D

I had considered spending $669 on a second K20D I thought, why? K-7 is so superior and I'm just $630 away from getting it instead & it has same 3 year warranty included

I'd guess K-7 has cut sales of remaining K20D inventory.

Then I think hey, Panasonic GH1 is $1499, just $200 more than K-7 and it comes with a silent autofocus, image stabilized super zoom specifically designed for HD and records in 16:9 format among others. It has articulated viewscreen which i really want included in a HD Dslr.

Bottom line for me, I won't drop $669 on 2nd K20D now. I'd rather wait and see how K-7 and GH1 compete in real world production sample tests. I guess by end of July for both I'll know whats up. By then the Canon 5D Mark II may have meaningful price drop off $2699 issue so thats in play for me too as I'm keeping my $669 in my pocket and waiting for the next couple months to play out. I read BestBuy is selling 5DII for $2499 plus local fees so its Nov 2008 launch price is finially eroding ;^)

That said K20D is a really nice dslr, I just don't want a 2nd one anymore.




QuoteOriginally posted by kiamon Quote
No one here mentioned the obvious.

The main difference is the K7 takes video since their ability to take good shots should be very close in the right hands.

The question to be answered: "Is taking video worth paying [$1300 for the new K7] vs. [$600-700 for a K20d]"

How many people can shell out an extra $700 for video and some extra features? Is it worth it?


05-29-2009, 10:15 PM   #47
Nubi
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For me personally, if I were to buy K-7, I would even if there is no video function. So the price difference is solely based on DSLR spec differences. Is it worth it? I have to see more pictures. This firmware issues I am not worried about. I am sure they will get it right. In the mean time, I am buying DA*55.
05-29-2009, 10:32 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
As long as a company has products that sell, why cut the run short?
The key factor is the profit margin. When a product like K20D is near its end of the product cycle, the profit margin has become paper thin. And it won't do much good to the company's bottom line even if it sells well. Plus it would probably cannibalize some sales from its newer, higher profit margin products.
05-30-2009, 04:32 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
ISO (High ISO - less noise in raw) and Dynamic Range (more)

AF (Multi-CAM3500 = 51-point, 15 cross-type + Auto-focus tracking by color using RGB AE sensor) - AF-C is way better, AF-S - I hope that at least that will be on par
I agree with the numbers, but saying that AF-C is going to be way better or even better is just speculation. The Sony A700 has an AF module that's inferior to the K20D module, let alone the D300, but it's still edges the Nikon when it comes to AF-C. The AF algorithms and data processing have a lot to do with it.

QuoteQuote:
FPS - more
Yeap, 0.8 fps faster if you're comparing body to body. The D300 does have a battery grip that increases the framerate more significantly, but with it the D300 costs close to $2000. Ouch.

QuoteQuote:
12 bit raw and 14-bit raw
The Pentax does have 12 bit RAW, so let's not artificially make the list longer than it needs to be. As for 14 bit, fps drops to 2.5 and the IQ differences are barely noticeable even under controlled conditions.

QuoteQuote:
lossless or lossy compression in raw
Again, you're listing something that the Pentax already has - lossless compression. As for lossy compression, it degrades image quality so is rather pointless for RAW shooters.

QuoteQuote:
shatter lag is less
Speculation.

QuoteQuote:
Flash system support/control external flashes - way better than Pentax can (and will) ever (unfortunately) offer
What exactly are you missing?

QuoteQuote:
Flash X-Sync: 1/250 sec (up to 1/320 sec with reduced guide number)
Agree about the 1/250 X-sync.

You can also use the Pentax at 1/320 (or higher) with reduced guide number.

QuoteQuote:
viewfinder - better (100% @ 0.94x vs 100% @ 0.92)
Again you're being redundant. If both have 100% viewfinder, then the Nikon advantage is only in the magnification. 0.94x vs 0.92x is beyond negligible.

QuoteQuote:
lens mount includes a mechanical AI aperture ring connector
The amount of limitations and incompatible lenses is very high, so I wouldn't rush into conclusions regarding the level of backward compatibility offered. It's an interesting subject that does warrant further discussion though, so I might open a new thread about it.

QuoteQuote:
Nikon users (I am not) will be able to list much more small details like you did for K-7...
That's ok, I'm not a K-7 user. I'm sure actual users will find many more.

As it is, the list of advantages you've mentioned is certainly not long, and other than the number of AF points and FPS with the optional $250 grip, there's really nothing in it (with all do respect to the 2% advantage in viewfinder magnification).

Prog.

05-30-2009, 04:50 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
ISO (High ISO - less noise in raw) and Dynamic Range (more)

Do you know what the high ISO and DR results for the production K-7 will be? I think not but you seem to think otherwise.

AF (Multi-CAM3500 = 51-point, 15 cross-type + Auto-focus tracking by color using RGB AE sensor) - AF-C is way better, AF-S - I hope that at least that will be on par

Of course the number of points is better on the D300 and the entire AF system is famous by its performance. Still I don't understand how can you dismiss the K-7 AF system beforehand. Well, I guess I know why ...

FPS - more

Without grip on the D300 the difference is quite negligible 6 vs 5.2 fps. Yes it is MORE but nothing groundbreaking or noticeable IMO

12 bit raw and 14-bit raw

Yes, but 14bit made comes with a severe penalty in speed. But here I agree it's good to have this feature even with the caveates

lossless or lossy compression in raw

This is supposedly a bonus? K-7 has 2 types of RAW compressed and a lossy compression for the RAW is IMO as useless. What could be the purpose of that? To save 10 Euro for another 8GB SD card?

shatter lag is less

And you know that because ...? Or you don't and make things up? But let's say the shutter lag is less and 10ms means a lot for you. Who am I to argue with that?

Flash system support/control external flashes - way better than Pentax can (and will) ever (unfortunately) offer

*Ever* is a long time and you need a substantially dose of bias to use it. Nikon flash system is touted to be the best but I guess this fact has to do a lot with the flashes itself. Besides the famous 1/180 X-sync of the k-7 I don't think it misses much in terms of flash controls or features.

Flash X-Sync: 1/250 sec (up to 1/320 sec with reduced guide number)

Agreed, see above.

viewfinder - better (100% @ 0.94x vs 100% @ 0.92)

Yes it's better by 2.1% good for Nikon!

lens mount includes a mechanical AI aperture ring connector

Besides convenience in using older (very old mare likely) lenses I don't see this as a major bonus. All Pentax cameras can metter with those lenses anyway and for me this is a feature I really don't want to pay for. Ever, to be as certain as you !

Nikon users (I am not) will be able to list much more small details like you did for K-7...
The point of all this is that IMO anyone better chose a camera based 100% on their personal needs. Talking about how camera X is so much better in absolute terms than camera Y is kind on childish if you ask me especially if the discussion fails to take into account the price. But K-7 at least on paper seems to be a more complete camera than K20D was at its launch and when all the pieces will fall into place I hope that the whole package will be very appealing to many customers (preferably as many converts as possible).

Radu
05-30-2009, 05:33 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
marketing bs - positionwise it stands exactly where K20D was standing when it was released... to aim really higher you to offer a better specs than top APS-C models from competition and K-7 still can't beat D300 on ISO, AF-C, FPS
What you write is completely bs.
The K-7 does aim higher than the K20D, with 100% viewfinder and 1/8000 shutter and faster continous shooting as examples of this. the K20D had 95% viewfinder and 1/4000 shutter.

What tests have you read that states that Nikon D300 is better at high ISO and has better AF-C than Pentax K-7? The K-7 has new sensor and new autofocus, don't judge the K-7 performance by the performance of the K20D.

You're trolling
05-30-2009, 05:37 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
that it aims higher does not make it some how not a replacement for K20D... if you will look at competition and check what were changes (dpreview is at your service) from D100 to D200 to D300 you will see they they were significant (there were changes from plastic to allow, much more significant changes in AF system and much more significant changes in sensor department, etc) and that did not make D200 somehow not a replacement for D100 or D300 not a replacement for D200... so apart from the naming convention K-7 is pretty much "K30D"...
You fail to understand that the K-7 do has new AF, it uses the same designation as the old because it is still 11 point system with 9 cross sensors - but the processing behind is completely new, and the new performance will show it. Then the K-7 also has a new sensor. Yes it still has the same 14.6Mp count, but it is a new sensor with 4 channel readout, the older one had 2 channel readout. Also the analysing pattern of the new PRIME is different and new circuit board design with lower surface noise is totally new. Then we have the new SR system, the 1/8000 shutter, the new viewfinder, the new metering system and the improved flash system among many other things that has changed.
05-30-2009, 05:46 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
ISO (High ISO - less noise in raw) and Dynamic Range (more)
The K-7 has a new sensor with claimed better high ISO and less noise in RAW.
Seems to me that you are making the misstake of judging the performance by the K20D instead of the K-7.

QuoteQuote:
AF (Multi-CAM3500 = 51-point, 15 cross-type + Auto-focus tracking by color using RGB AE sensor) - AF-C is way better, AF-S - I hope that at least that will be on par
How do you know that the AF-C is "way better"?
The new AF system in the K-7 also has a colour sensitive sensor that improves low light focus and also tracking ability.

QuoteQuote:
FPS - more
Very marginally more.

QuoteQuote:
12 bit raw and 14-bit raw
Not something you can detect in images.

QuoteQuote:
lossless or lossy compression in raw
Now you are listing the K-7 features and claims they are for the Nikon.

QuoteQuote:
shatter lag is less
Yes, it is less for the K-7. K-7 is faster than the K20D.

QuoteQuote:
Flash system support/control external flashes - way better than Pentax can (and will) ever (unfortunately) offer
You are trolling. The K-7 has new P-TTL and improved performance over the K20D.

QuoteQuote:
Flash X-Sync: 1/250 sec (up to 1/320 sec with reduced guide number)
Only a minor difference, and the K-7 has flash sync up to 1/8000 for high speed sync flash.

QuoteQuote:
viewfinder - better (100% @ 0.94x vs 100% @ 0.92)
Both K-7 and D300 has 100% viewfinders, so?

QuoteQuote:
lens mount includes a mechanical AI aperture ring connector
Pentax K-7 really takes advantage of the A-serie manual focus lenses from 1982 and newer and they work in all exposure modes even the automatic and semi-automatic ones. When was AI introduced?

QuoteQuote:
Nikon users (I am not) will be able to list much more small details like you did for K-7...
So?

Let's see some things you missed.
The K-7 has rotational sensor, which means automatic leveling function and straight horizons.

It is fully weather sealed with guarantee for cold climate (the D300 is not guaranteed to work below 0 celcius).

The K-7 is almost half the size of the D300.

K-7 has two HDR-functions.

K-7 read the MTF-chart from the lenses and adjust exposure after the best lens performance, but can also do correction for distorsion and lateral CA.

K-7 has TAv and Sv modes and easier and more programmable ISO functions.

HyperProgram of the K-7 is still something missing on the D300.

05-30-2009, 05:50 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Then I think hey, Panasonic GH1 is $1499, just $200 more than K-7 and it comes with a silent autofocus, image stabilized super zoom specifically designed for HD and records in 16:9 format among others. It has articulated viewscreen which i really want included in a HD Dslr.
If you want video, then buy a camcorder.
The K-7 is weather sealed, cold protected and has a 100% optical viewfinder that works wonders in low light, also do compare the high ISO capability of the K20D to the Panasonic and the K20D wins hands down, the K-7 is even better (how much better will be revealed when the camera hits the streets). Do note the plastic body of the Panasonic and the magnesium alloy of the K-7. Then of course the rotational compensation with automatic leveling function, HyperProgram and two sharpness options for edge detail or texture detailing, built in HDR, 1/8000 shutter, 5.2 fps and faster colour corrected autofocus, both for AF-S and AF-C. On sole picture taking ability, the K-7 is a professional tool and the Panasonic is a toy. But yes, the Panasonic do has HD video and a format less suitable for editing than the K-7 motion JPEG.
05-30-2009, 06:32 AM   #55
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If hte D300s spec list I saw is true (yeah, no D400), the D300s will be a stopgap for the sake of "me too" againt the K-7.

That would be funny xD
05-30-2009, 06:49 AM   #56
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Ha! If I want to use lenses I already own for HD I'll BUY what I want...

which means NO Camcorder.

Thanks for the insight.

So why do Canon & Nikon & Pentax & Panasonic bother offering up HD in current cameras???

Anyways I kinda think HD in any dslr is a gimmick to make people who own and do not need to upgrade their cameras to buy in again. I can easily skip any brands HD offer in 2009, and 2010 with gear I have onhand today.

K-7 is nice & nicer once its available and field tested. Same goes with GH1.

Should be alot to read about in July or some say August, some two or so months from now for K-7. I'm already finding user reports on GH1 which went on sale last week in Asia.




QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
If you want video, then buy a camcorder.
The K-7 is weather sealed, cold protected and has a 100% optical viewfinder that works wonders in low light, also do compare the high ISO capability of the K20D to the Panasonic and the K20D wins hands down, the K-7 is even better (how much better will be revealed when the camera hits the streets). Do note the plastic body of the Panasonic and the magnesium alloy of the K-7. Then of course the rotational compensation with automatic leveling function, HyperProgram and two sharpness options for edge detail or texture detailing, built in HDR, 1/8000 shutter, 5.2 fps and faster colour corrected autofocus, both for AF-S and AF-C. On sole picture taking ability, the K-7 is a professional tool and the Panasonic is a toy. But yes, the Panasonic do has HD video and a format less suitable for editing than the K-7 motion JPEG.
05-30-2009, 07:05 AM   #57
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While it's all very interesting comparing the K-7 and the D300, the fact of the matter is that the K-7 won't actually be competing against the D300... Rumour on the Nikon forums has it that the D300 production has already ceased, meaning that K-7 and D300 will only be on the shelves together for a few months at most before the D400 is released.

K20D competed with D300, K-7 will compete with D400.

I also find the D300S rumours pretty unbelievable. Given Nikon's track record with semi-pro dSLRs, I can't imagine they're going to release a half-arsed face lift on a body that's already 2 years old... D400 will be a totally new model, and it will be awesome (but i'll still crave a K-7 )
05-30-2009, 02:37 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
If hte D300s spec list I saw is true (yeah, no D400), the D300s will be a stopgap for the sake of "me too" againt the K-7.
I just so the rumored specs too. If true, then here is an updated list of the K-7 advantages:

- In-body image stabilization (SR)
- $400 less expensive
- 175 gram lighter; significantly smaller
- DNG support (with lossless compression)
- Digital level with manual or automatic correction using sensor tilt
- Pixel remapping
- Digital preview
- The green button; ISO, WB and Menu button accessible using the right hand; RAW button
- Automatic AF correction based on ambient light color temperature
- 3-exposure HDR; Multiple exposures up to 9 exposures (without tone mapping or overexposure)
- HyperProgram
- Higher resolution (14.6 MP vs. 12.3MP)
- LCD color calibration
- Cold weather support down to -10 degree C
- Dust alert
- Composition adjustment via sensor shift
- Copyright embedding in EXIF

And here are the D300S advantages:

- AF with 51-points, 15 cross-type + Auto-focus tracking by color using RGB AE sensor
- 7 FPS (8 with grip)
- RAW can support 14 bit and can use lossy compression
- 1/250 X-sync
- Viewfinder with 2% higher magnification

K-7 still has the upper hand for everything but sport photography, maybe news photography too (due to the higher X-sync --> shorter flash recharge, more flashes per charge).

Prog.
05-30-2009, 06:06 PM   #59
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Here is a slightly used K20D for $470 with about 20 hrs to go or so.

PENTAX K20D 14.6 MEGAPIXEL DSLR BODY---slightly used! - eBay (item 330332992140 end time May-31-09 14:05:21 PDT)

Say, less than 6K shutters and less than $500 sounds like a bargain. No?
05-30-2009, 07:04 PM   #60
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Indeed, "No" , its not a bargain.

B&H has these for $669 & free delivery. Pentax is running 3 year warranty to (((ORIGINAL))) owners only thru 7-31-09. Must put thru paperwork within 30 days to qualify. Auction K20D is at $470 plus $15 delivery = $485 plus $3 insurance Why isn't a brand new K20D with 3 year warranty worth $182 more? Plus if theres a problem you'll get another new K20D from B&H.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=cart_accessories&A=details...=542060&is=REG


http://www.pentaximaging.com/slr/K20D/


>>"Right now, save $200 on the feature-rich K20D. Plus, you also get an extended FREE three-year warranty (1 year standard, 2 years extended) when you purchase the K20D by 7/31/2009."

QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
Here is a slightly used K20D for $470 with about 20 hrs to go or so.

PENTAX K20D 14.6 MEGAPIXEL DSLR BODY---slightly used! - eBay (item 330332992140 end time May-31-09 14:05:21 PDT)

Say, less than 6K shutters and less than $500 sounds like a bargain. No?

Last edited by Samsungian; 05-30-2009 at 07:13 PM.
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