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05-30-2009, 08:45 PM   #61
Nubi
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It may not be a bargain of the century, but wouldn't it still be a pretty good deal though? How about as a back up to K-7? It sounds pretty reasonable. No?

05-30-2009, 10:08 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
I agree with the numbers, but saying that AF-C is going to be way better or even better is just speculation.
don't be a fanboy - it is a fact


QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
Yeap, 0.8 fps faster if you're comparing body to body. The D300 does have a battery grip that increases the framerate more significantly, but with it the D300 costs close to $2000. Ouch.
yeap, D300 is better here with or withour grip, just accept it w/o whining...

QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
The Pentax does have 12 bit RAW, so let's not artificially make the list longer than it needs to be. As for 14 bit, fps drops to 2.5 and the IQ differences are barely noticeable even under controlled conditions.
I did not make it longer - it was one line that D300 has 12 or 14bit raw on demand... as for your note that IQ is differences are barely noticeable - look I did not comment on your line about having an option to shoot raw in either PEF or DNG... and to have 14bit raw is way better than to have a DNG which you can get from NEF using a free adobe converter if you really need that, while you can't get extra 2 bit in Pentax in case you want that... so it is you who are making the list artificially longer than it needs to be


QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
Again, you're listing something that the Pentax already has - lossless compression. As for lossy compression, it degrades image quality so is rather pointless for RAW shooters.
I am not listing just lossless compression - I am listing an option to have either lossless or lossy w/ RAW... one line, not two...

QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
Speculation.
fact - measure it... Pentax still has longer shatter lag


QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
What exactly are you missing?
I can tell you that I 'd not be missing
1) 3-exposure HDR; Multiple exposures up to 9 exposures (without tone mapping or overexposure)
- I have enough software that can do this much better
2) LCD color calibration
3) Copyright embedding in EXIF
4) DNG support (with lossless compression)
- as I can get DNG from PEF any time and DNG is fully supported by less raw converters comparing with PEF
etc, etc, etc...

apparently all those features are important to you, but I'd trade all of them for a flash system which will be on par w/ Nikon



QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
Again you're being redundant. If both have 100% viewfinder, then the Nikon advantage is only in the magnification. 0.94x vs 0.92x is beyond negligible.
still it is a fact - D300 has a better viewfinder

QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
The amount of limitations and incompatible lenses is very high, so I wouldn't rush into conclusions regarding the level of backward compatibility offered. It's an interesting subject that does warrant further discussion though, so I might open a new thread about it.
still D300 has an edge here, it is like K-7 that can read aperture from pre "A" lenses...


QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
That's ok, I'm not a K-7 user. I'm sure actual users will find many more.
of course - the point is K-7 has an edge on usability and affordability, but still can't beat 2 years old D300 on several important things

QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
As it is, the list of advantages you've mentioned is certainly not long, and other than the number of AF points and FPS with the optional $250 grip, there's really nothing in it (with all do respect to the 2% advantage in viewfinder magnification).

Prog.
you forgot better ISO and DR, better support for AF from AE sensor, etc...
05-30-2009, 10:29 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
What you write is completely bs.
The only bs here is your grassroot marketing.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
The K-7 does aim higher than the K20D, with 100% viewfinder and 1/8000 shutter and faster continous shooting as examples of this. the K20D had 95% viewfinder and 1/4000 shutter.
of course K7 has better features than K20D - but those things did not make K-7 a new tier of Pentax cameras, it is still continuation of the same tier that K20D was representing at launch...

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
What tests have you read that states that Nikon D300 is better at high ISO
....The K-7 has new sensor
I guess you had a chance to read the recent posting from GordonBGood @ DPReview...

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
... and has better AF-C than Pentax K-7? The K-7 has ... and new autofocus
К-7 has old AF system, but w/ improved algorithms that help w/ AF-S and extra sensor detecting light spectrum/color temperature that helps w/ BF/FF problems but it has nothing that can match what D300 has to track moving targets (AF-C).
05-30-2009, 10:40 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
You fail to understand that the K-7 do has new AF, it uses the same designation as the old because it is still 11 point system with 9 cross sensors - but the processing behind is completely new
still does not help AF-C where you need (1) more points and (2) smaller area per point... and as Nikon has (3) help from AE RGB sensor that helps w/ tracking of the moving target between focus points.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
, and the new performance will show it.
AF-S probably will be better... I hope... AF-C still will not match D300

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Then the K-7 also has a new sensor. Yes it still has the same 14.6Mp count, but it is a new sensor with 4 channel readout, the older one had 2 channel readout.
again I can recommend you to reread the recent posting from GordonBGood @ DPReview... readout is faster (like Sony 10Mp sensors - 2 channels for K10D and junior Nikons, 4 channels for D200), noise is not better.

\

05-30-2009, 11:18 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
it is a fact
Is that so? Where are the lab tests that prove it?

QuoteQuote:
yeap, D300 is better here with or withour grip
A tiny bit better without the grip, a whole lot more expensive with it.

QuoteQuote:
I did not make it longer - it was one line that D300 has 12 or 14bit raw on demand... as for your note that IQ is differences are barely noticeable - look I did not comment on your line about having an option to shoot raw in either PEF or DNG... and to have 14bit raw is way better than to have a DNG which you can get from NEF using a free adobe converter if you really need that, while you can't get extra 2 bit in Pentax in case you want that... so it is you who are making the list artificially longer than it needs to be
12 bit is not a differentiator, so it has no place being mentioned.

For me, the main point in using DNG is long term support. Closed formats become unsupported after a long time. Open ones much less so. I can still print picture I shot 20 years ago, but I have no easy way to access 5.25 floppies formatted by my Apple II. For all intent, this data is gone for good, and to a large extent other data in proprietary formats used by this machine is unusable in modern PC's, even if I can transfer the files. Emulation is one way to tackle this, but it has its limitations. Therefore, I wouldn't rely on Adobe's DNG converter converting your old RAW files when its current D300-NEF-supporting version doesn't run any longer on the OS of the time. You'd better do the conversions now, when you still can.

As for the length of the list, I didn't claim all advantages have the same weight, but they are all advantages. 12 bit support can't be considered one, nor the speculative items.

QuoteQuote:
I am not listing just lossless compression - I am listing an option to have either lossless or lossy w/ RAW... one line, not two...
Lossless compressions is not a differentiator, so it has no place being mentioned.

QuoteQuote:
fact - measure it... Pentax still has longer shatter lag
To measure it I'll need both cameras, the right equipment and knowhow. I don't have them, and neither do you. Sites like dpreview.com and imaging-resource.com do have them, but they haven't tested the K-7 yet. Bottom line: You're listing speculations as facts. I guess your list of actual advantages was too short

QuoteQuote:
I can tell you that I 'd not be missing
1) 3-exposure HDR; Multiple exposures up to 9 exposures (without tone mapping or overexposure)
- I have enough software that can do this much better
2) LCD color calibration
3) Copyright embedding in EXIF
4) DNG support (with lossless compression)
- as I can get DNG from PEF any time and DNG is fully supported by less raw converters comparing with PEF
etc, etc, etc...

apparently all those features are important to you, but I'd trade all of them for a flash system which will be on par w/ Nikon
I see you're having difficulties listing the features in the Nikon flash system that you care about so much. I guess it the "Nikon" label on the flashes.

QuoteQuote:
still it is a fact - D300 has a better viewfinder
No, the fact is that the D300 has a viewfinder with 2% higher magnification. There are other parameters which the K-7 viewfinder may be better at:

- Eye-point distance
- Brightness
- Manual focus snappiness
- DOF representation

If I were you I would probably claim that the K-7 viewfinder is better than the Nikon's because my hunch would tell me that its viewfinder is better in these parameters, but I'm not. I only listed facts, not speculation.

QuoteQuote:
still D300 has an edge here, it is like K-7 that can read aperture from pre "A" lenses...
The question is - does it have the overall edge in backwards compatibility? This needs further discussion.

QuoteQuote:
of course - the point is K-7 has an edge on usability and affordability, but still can't beat 2 years old D300 on several important things
"Many" has now changed into "several". Nice

Other than the number of AF points, FPS-with-grip or X-sync, I doubt you could find many Nikon users who would claim these features are important.

QuoteQuote:
you forgot better ISO and DR, better support for AF from AE sensor, etc...
I didn't forget them, I intentionally left out any items based on speculation. My post was about facts, not wishful thinking.

Prog.
05-30-2009, 11:35 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
К-7 has old AF system, but w/ improved algorithms that help w/ AF-S and extra sensor detecting light spectrum/color temperature that helps w/ BF/FF problems but it has nothing that can match what D300 has to track moving targets (AF-C).

still does not help AF-C where you need (1) more points and (2) smaller area per point... and as Nikon has (3) help from AE RGB sensor that helps w/ tracking of the moving target between focus points.


AF-S probably will be better... I hope... AF-C still will not match D300
Let me remind you that "the Sony A700 has an AF module that's inferior to the K20D module, let alone the D300, but it's still edges the Nikon when it comes to AF-C. The AF algorithms and data processing have a lot to do with it". In short, it's to early to claim that the AF-C of the D300 is overall better than that of the K-7. It may be so, but until there's a test that proves this, it's nothing but speculation.

Prog.
05-30-2009, 11:45 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
The K-7 has a new sensor with claimed better high ISO and less noise in RAW.
"claimed" by marketing and delivered by NR that you can't switch off...

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Seems to me that you are making the misstake of judging the performance by the K20D instead of the K-7.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
How do you know that the AF-C is "way better"?
The new AF system in the K-7 also has a colour sensitive sensor that improves low light focus and also tracking ability.
and how exactly it helps AF system w/ tracking ? how it helps it to find out to which AF point the target is moving ? it only detects what is the color temperatur/spectrum of the light... that's it


QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Very marginally more.

15% more FPS w/o grip and the thing is that if you really need FPS you can get a grip and have 8 FPS, w/ Pentax you just can't no matter what.


QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Not something you can detect in images.
there was an old topic on DPReview - 12bit versus 14bit - another sample test: Nikon D3 - D1 / D700 Forum: Digital Photography Review


QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Now you are listing the K-7 features and claims they are for the Nikon.
did I miss anything ? K-7 has lossy compression in RAW ?

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Yes, it is less for the K-7. K-7 is faster than the K20D.
I mean D300 has lag less that K-7, do not play a blonde... oops, you are from Sweden though


QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
The K-7 has new P-TTL and improved performance over the K20D.
nowhere near Nikon flash system...

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Only a minor difference,
well, it still shows that Pentax was not able to deliver on such "minor" difference... probably it was not that "minor"

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
and the K-7 has flash sync up to 1/8000 for high speed sync flash.
D300 has it for hss too (and each camera/flash system that has HSS can do this for its own fastest shutter speed... but I 'd not call you names for this )

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Both K-7 and D300 has 100% viewfinders, so?
D300 has better magnification, you might call it insignificant, but the fact is that it is still 0.94x vs 0.92x...

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Pentax K-7 really takes advantage of the A-serie manual focus lenses from 1982 and newer and they work in all exposure modes even the automatic and semi-automatic ones. When was AI introduced?
D300 can read aperture from lenses that are pre "A" in Pentax terms (imagine Pentax dSLR w/ "uncrippled" KAF2 mount).

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Let's see some things you missed.

I did not miss anything - I just listed the things where D300 is better, so you probably are addressing Prognathous, not me

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
K-7 has two HDR-functions.
yes, however Photoshop+HDR plugins or standalone HDR programs has so much more... of course, some people don't have that, but I doubt that people who buy D300 don't have access to proper postprocessing tools

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
K-7 read the MTF-chart from the lenses and adjust exposure after the best lens performance, but can also do correction for distorsion and lateral CA.
Nikon lenses have chips too... K-7 itself (raw converter in its firmware) does correction only for JPEG (and as you probably know - there are many people who only do RAW), so you still need to use a raw converter off camera to deal w/ RAW files and there D300 has an advantage by having a good DxO support...
05-30-2009, 11:49 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
Let me remind you that "the Sony A700 has an AF module that's inferior to the K20D module, let alone the D300, but it's still edges the Nikon when it comes to AF-C. The AF algorithms and data processing have a lot to do with it". In short, it's to early to claim that the AF-C of the D300 is overall better than that of the K-7. It may be so, but until there's a test that proves this, it's nothing but speculation.

Prog.
my speculation is as good as your speculation ... but I see nothing in pentax spec's that indicates that AF-C is as good in tracking moving targets as D300

05-31-2009, 12:39 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
my speculation is as good as your speculation
Except that I don't speculate. Unlike your list, mine is comprised of facts.

QuoteQuote:
... but I see nothing in pentax spec's that indicates that AF-C is as good in tracking moving targets as D300
You'll see nothing in the A700 specs either, yet its AF-C is in some cases better than the Nikon's. The K-7 has a more capable AF module to begin with (compared to the Sony), so it has even more potential. Whether this potential has been fulfilled remains to be seen. You can't declare the Nikon as a winner before this aspect is put to the test. That's the difference between facts and speculation.

Prog.
05-31-2009, 04:34 AM   #70
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@Prog and Roland

Didn't the three of us fed this troll long enough? He's kind of obese now and I am worried about his health. In the end all that really matters is how the K-7 will perform and how well it will sell. The rest is in this moment an useless waste of time.

Radu
05-31-2009, 05:05 AM   #71
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Buy it if you want it

I bought my K20D in Nov 2008 for $689 new with 3 year warranty. Now its $20 less. K20D isn't the perfect back up for K-7 due to new layout, new battery, new charger. Best back up for a K-7 is another K-7

Its a common misconception any brand camera and lens warranty are transferrable. None I know of are transferrable. Why do I know this? I actually read my Pentax, Canon and Nikon dslr & lens warranty info. So I'll say again & add:

For Me:


Indeed, "No" , its not a bargain.

B&H has these for $669 & free delivery. Pentax is running 3 year warranty to (((ORIGINAL))) owners only thru 7-31-09. Must put thru paperwork within 30 days to qualify. Auction K20D is at $470 plus $15 delivery = $485 plus $3 insurance Why isn't a brand new K20D with 3 year warranty worth $182 more? Plus if theres a problem you'll get another new K20D from B&H.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=542060&is=REG


K20D Digital SLR - Official PENTAX Imaging Web Site


>>"Right now, save $200 on the feature-rich K20D. Plus, you also get an extended FREE three-year warranty (1 year standard, 2 years extended) when you purchase the K20D by 7/31/2009."


QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
It may not be a bargain of the century, but wouldn't it still be a pretty good deal though? How about as a back up to K-7? It sounds pretty reasonable. No?
05-31-2009, 05:33 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by davemdsn Quote
I just bought a second K20 with a 3 year warranty back in April. I'll bet it takes great pictures for quite some time after the K-7 becomes available. Heck, my original K20 that is now out of warranty is still going strong and taking stellar photos. I don't see what a new model has to do with the functionality of an old model.
Yep, I got a pair of k20Ds on a similar schedule: love 'em! I feel like I'm just getting in a groove and still have a way to go in terms of getting the most out of them. The K7 sure seems like it's going to be a good one but I'm content to cruise with the twins for a while.
05-31-2009, 06:07 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
ISO (High ISO - less noise in raw)
But doesn't this come at the expense of resolution? Canikons win noise measurement figure contests but for me personally their images resulting from high NR are not very appealing.
I prefer the Pentax approach which gives me the choice of either retaining some resolution and live with some grain or NR the noise away in PP and loose a lot of resolution in the process.
05-31-2009, 08:44 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I bought my K20D in Nov 2008 for $689 new with 3 year warranty. Now its $20 less. K20D isn't the perfect back up for K-7 due to new layout, new battery, new charger. Best back up for a K-7 is another K-7

Its a common misconception any brand camera and lens warranty are transferrable. None I know of are transferrable. Why do I know this? I actually read my Pentax, Canon and Nikon dslr & lens warranty info. So I'll say again & add:

For Me:


Indeed, "No" , its not a bargain.

B&H has these for $669 & free delivery. Pentax is running 3 year warranty to (((ORIGINAL))) owners only thru 7-31-09. Must put thru paperwork within 30 days to qualify. Auction K20D is at $470 plus $15 delivery = $485 plus $3 insurance Why isn't a brand new K20D with 3 year warranty worth $182 more? Plus if theres a problem you'll get another new K20D from B&H.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=542060&is=REG


K20D Digital SLR - Official PENTAX Imaging Web Site


>>"Right now, save $200 on the feature-rich K20D. Plus, you also get an extended FREE three-year warranty (1 year standard, 2 years extended) when you purchase the K20D by 7/31/2009."


I do see your point. I am going to buy one anyway and keep my k20D related gears ie batteries an so on.
05-31-2009, 10:35 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
my speculation is as good as your speculation ... but I see nothing in pentax spec's that indicates that AF-C is as good in tracking moving targets as D300
let's get down to the most basic facts here.

K-7 is the hottest pre-ordered dSLR commodity.
K-7 has made lots of non-Pentax photo enthusiasts to jump ship and abandon their preferred dSLR brand.
K-7 is responsible for influencing people to join this forum.
K-7 beat the hell out of the D300 that it made their owners consider on buying the K-7 which you consider as a subpar performer behind the D300.

I guess that the K-7 sucks so bad, that you didn't notice these facts. may I suggest that you to have your lens checked coz they maybe suffering from abrasions.


Truly Yours,

EX-NIKON shooter
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