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06-03-2009, 08:35 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I don't get that either. The review doesn't explain why 20% of the marks have been deducted.
20% is the automatic deduction for not being a Canikon

I personally find the menu system quite easy to use on the Pentax cameras, fast access with the dials. It's just not really pretty (don't care) like for example the Samsung version.

06-03-2009, 08:55 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
20% is the automatic deduction for not being a Canikon

I personally find the menu system quite easy to use on the Pentax cameras, fast access with the dials. It's just not really pretty (don't care) like for example the Samsung version.
Indeed, you lose 20% if your check isn't deposited promptly before close of business day of review.
06-03-2009, 09:06 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
Not possitive enough,
It comes out at the same price as the D90.
Has better body,
sealed,
same high end LCD
better WB according to them,
better video according to what I have seen,
in built stabalization,
more compact,
more responcive,
more pixels,
HDR
more features,
5.2 FPS,
100% viewfinder,
level detector
nicer AF assist light, (green instead of screaming white)
1/8000th of a second.
Real Iso 100
9 cross type sensors that are now super quick
AF adjustment.
on tripod adjustments.

Yet, because they could not get used to the UI in a day it gets marked down to 8/10 verses the near perfection the D90 has at 9/10

BolloX

Bias BIAS, Bias,

and it was not even a preproduction unit.
This is why I think most reviews should avoid systems of gradation in their conclusion and just tell us what they think of the product/movie/book. The numbers don't ever seem to mean anything relative to other reviews, and a lot of times the final grade seems to contradict what was said before it. This is lessened somewhat with the aggregation of multiple reviews, which allows for a more accurate sample.

This said, I don't think there is any problem with the critique of the menus -- that's how things get better after all. If there's any bias in the review, it's that he only seemed to compare the camera to Nikon and Canon, and not to Sony and Olympus, which to me suggests that the reviewer's frame of reference is the two biggest brands.
06-03-2009, 09:47 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
Not possitive enough,
It comes out at the same price as the D90.
Not in the UK.
Price is about 30% more than the Nikon here.

06-03-2009, 10:01 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
20% is the automatic deduction for not being a Canikon

I personally find the menu system quite easy to use on the Pentax cameras, fast access with the dials. It's just not really pretty (don't care) like for example the Samsung version.
Did you ever use the K100D? That camera has just about the worst menu system I've ever used. The K10D and K20D were pretty great though. I've never used a K200D so I wouldn't know. The K100D though...ugh. I'm still not sure what they mean by certain abbreviations on that menu...heheh.
06-03-2009, 10:04 AM   #21
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I find the menu system in K10D/K20D as straightforward, simple and easy on the eye.
The novelty of programming some certain functions - like RAW-button, ISO-control on the 2nd wheel in Av and Tv modes, USER-mode with all tweaks of the basic settings etc. - means that it won't get used as much as on some other cameras.
HyperProgram, for example, is great.

I don't see Canon cameras as user friendly as Pentax.
06-03-2009, 10:46 AM   #22
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Coming from a full Nikon system (for 2 years), and I have a degree in computer science and I used to design user interfaces, in my opinion and experience Nikon has the best overall UI and ergonomics, and Pentax is quite similar and just needs some tweaking.

Canon's UI is quite quirky and not as intuitive but can be learned. (I use both Canon and Pentax for a living, so I spend time with both).

But as with all systems, you just have to spend some time with it and it'll become second nature. Really. Just like cellphones.

Which is why I avoid criticizing user interfaces unless I spend time with it.
06-03-2009, 11:45 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by ProppaT Quote
Did you ever use the K100D? That camera has just about the worst menu system I've ever used.
I never touched a K100D. But I used the K10D, K200D, K20D and K-m. I feel the UI is relatively well designed on each of them. I also did some UI design (and read books about it like the Design of Everyday things or A. Cooper's books) and I just can't stand to use a device with a bad UI.

Designing a good UI is always a difficult task, you have to present all the features, but not overwhelm the user, but not hide them either, group them logically, give fast access to the most important function, being consistant, etc.

Of course a DSLR is a relatively complex device and you cannot expect people to use it on the first day without looking in the manual (although the K-m help button is a nice -but not so well implemented- idea). But if after a while you still cannot operate it without looking at the button or checking the manual, then the UI is most probably flawed. It's like my vacuum cleaner, after 10 years, I still mistake the on/off button with the retractable cable button because they build them the same shape and color and are symmetrically placed on the body. Bad UI.

Pentax UI is mostly good. They could improve a few minor things and maybe theme their menus for people who like pretty colors and icons in their menus. But you can feel that they take great care of designing the UI.

06-03-2009, 12:30 PM   #24
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I find the Pentax UI to be easy to use, but Wired has a point if you like nice looking UI's. As usable or not it is simply a very ugly OS compared to Canon's latest on the 50D and 5D Mk II. Hopefully Pentax will purty it up some via firmware update after its release.
06-03-2009, 12:37 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote


Pentax UI is mostly good. They could improve a few minor things and maybe theme their menus for people who like pretty colors and icons in their menus. But you can feel that they take great care of designing the UI.
I'm personally not seeing much reason for complaint. Maybe Wired doesn't think much of it, as computer experts, but on my K20d, it's very straightforward for an oft-computer-bewildered photo person. There's some stuff I might like to be able to put on top in the custom settings or have buttons I could use to shortcut to directly, but it works nice and *makes sense to me* Almost nothing to have to memorize, which counts for a lot, especially when I'm tired.

What I'd really like to see would be more 'user' modes you could set up ahead of time, and maybe a 'panic' mode where whatever else you may be doing at the time, everything drops into settings optimal for speed and publishability.
06-03-2009, 12:43 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by ProppaT Quote
Did you ever use the K100D? That camera has just about the worst menu system I've ever used. The K10D and K20D were pretty great though. I've never used a K200D so I wouldn't know. The K100D though...ugh. I'm still not sure what they mean by certain abbreviations on that menu...heheh.
K10D and K100D are terribly similar, UI-wise. I've used them both; the K100D more extensively since I own one; and I didn't find much of a difference between them.

Did dig the extra buttons and dials, though.
06-03-2009, 01:54 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Maybe Wired doesn't think much of it, as computer experts, but on my K20d, it's very straightforward for an oft-computer-bewildered photo person.
Wired aren't computer experts; they're techno yuppies. To them, a good interface has to be full of gloss effects and sound like a Federation starship whenever you press a button.
06-03-2009, 02:39 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by ProppaT Quote
Did you ever use the K100D? That camera has just about the worst menu system I've ever used.
You don't seem to get around a lot, kiddo, when it comes to menu systems.
Seriously, the abbreviations are not hard to decipher if you care about the functionality. I don't even notice anymore that some characters are missing, my brain automatically expands the items.


QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
I find the menu system in K10D/K20D as straightforward, simple and easy on the eye.
Exactly. "Easy on the eye" is a big one for me. Lots of bells an whistles (like a visualisation of the aperture with the current f-ratio) would be a distraction and waste of space for me.
Now that's a matter of taste but it would be wrong to label the Pentax approach to be "behind" another one because of that different "no sugar" approach.

QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
Coming from a full Nikon system (for 2 years), and I have a degree in computer science and I used to design user interfaces, in my opinion and experience Nikon has the best overall UI and ergonomics, and Pentax is quite similar and just needs some tweaking.
Where and how exactly is the tweaking needed?

W.r.t. the K100D I intuitively would have grouped some menu items differently. After using the system I understood the logic behind the grouping and I was fine (as you say, adaptation should come before criticism). Having said that, you want the user to avoid needing to visit several menus in order to change certain frequent modes of operation (like switching between AF-C + AF by OK button VS AF-S + AF by half-button press). Here it is important that menus are organised to so called "use cases" rather than some technical grouping. Since people are so different, I'm a great fan of custom menus (that you can assemble yourself) and/or "soft buttons" (that you can assign your favourite functionality). There is some of this to some degree (e.g., on the K100D the "OK" button can play several roles), but it wouldn't hurt to expand on this.

But other than the above mentioned things, I don't see why one should change anything about the menu system in principle. Perhaps the reviewer referred to suboptimal grouping but it surely doesn't sound like it.
06-03-2009, 04:11 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by ftpaddict Quote
Wired aren't computer experts; they're techno yuppies. To them, a good interface has to be full of gloss effects and sound like a Federation starship whenever you press a button.

You seem to have a higher opinion of 'experts' than I.

Though probably a few different digital 'skins' would make em happy.

(And, you know, why not. If I could have my K20 occasionally say in like the voice of Kitt "At current rate of consumption, there are thirty six exposures left on this memory card," Well, it's a fun idea. Yeah, it wouldn't last long, but, hey. Computers. )

I actually appreciate the font on there, not to disparage anyone else's, ... it seems tech-people complain about the look, but it's very legible at a glance and it's distinct from anything else you might be looking at around you. Maybe it *looks* a little Mickey-mouse, to some, and I wouldn't want to put it on my wall, but it has a good quality of looking different for when you're inevitably multitasking, as the words stand out. I often find my concentration a little strained, and it works, is all. There's some things I'd have them rearrange, but overall, when you're photographing, you aren't looking *at* the display, you're *using* it.
06-03-2009, 04:14 PM   #30
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But, I agree, ClassA, more configurable 'soft' buttons (even just one) on any camera would probably make a whole lot of people happy.
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