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06-03-2009, 04:22 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Where and how exactly is the tweaking needed?
Hmm here are a few I can remember that could use some improvement.

For one, having the ability to customize your menu to "hide" the stuff you don't access often/at all. The ability to do this is just awesome in my experience. You can "clean up" your menus and be able to go through your menu faster with the stuff you don't use out of the way. Another would be the inconsistency of having to use the left/right arrows and the middle button. Another is to be able to toggle showing the "blinkies" or blown highlights without having to into the menu. Wish it were available as an INFO toggle, instead of having to go into the menu to toggle it on/off.

Another would be able to change WB faster. It takes a few precious seconds for me to press Fn, then press the direction for WB, then to scroll up/down between WB presets (and you can't use the scroll wheel here) and the up/down action is annoyingly slow (but it's nice to see instant feedback as to what it will look like, like a preview). In Nikon/Canon you just hold down the WB button and scroll with the wheel/dial instantly to the preset needed, looking at the top LCD. Same goes for drive mode (switching to single, burst etc). Same for Flash mode and power compensation. The Pentax implementation is easy to understand, but slow. It would be a great improvement if you could do both, which the button layout of the new K-7 could implement. Basically, one for speed (shortcuts) another for ease of use. Just like how you can scroll through the menus using the dials or the buttons.

EDIT: Another example is flash compensation. Press Fn > Flash > turn dial to control flash power compensation. That takes a few seconds and the group of people you're taking is just standing there waiting. A big improvement would be to hold down the flash button and scroll a dial to adjust flash compensation.

The overall Menu speed and responsiveness is slow (at least on my K20D, the K2000 should/might be better). Same for the responsiveness of the dials. The Canon/Nikon menus and dials/wheels responsiveness is MUCH faster and responsive (not so much for the dials/wheels).

The last thing I can think of now is the button layout, the Fn button could be placed better. I find it to be placed quite low, where I'd have to awkwardly reach/stretch my thumb to reach it.

These are some of the little things that I find that could be improved. The K-7 looks to be an improvement


Last edited by soccerjoe5; 06-03-2009 at 07:49 PM.
06-03-2009, 05:12 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
and maybe a 'panic' mode where whatever else you may be doing at the time, everything drops into settings optimal for speed and publishability.
It's called the "green button".
06-03-2009, 10:40 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
Hmm here are a few I can remember that could use some improvement.
Thanks, Diego.

I agree with you on many points. In particular regarding the direct "button + wheel" selection method. That would really work well for me.

Your suggestions concern usability in general (and you claimed nothing else) but since they are (with one exception) not about the "menu system" as such, I'm still wondering what the reviewer meant by criticising the "menu system".

QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
For one, having the ability to customize your menu to "hide" the stuff you don't access often/at all.
That's the one point regarding the menu system. I think that it would be a good option (i.e., have a quickly accessible tick box that controls whether you see all of a menu or just a user-defined subset of it).

Do Canikon offer this feature?

That falls under the "customisation" category for me and there can hardly be too much of that. Yes, many options can complicate the settings considerably but then if you don't bother you don't need to deal with these parts. A happy user will find the camera simple and a demanding user will find it customisable.

QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
Another would be the inconsistency of having to use the left/right arrows and the middle button.
What "middle button"? The "OK" button? What inconsistency are you referring to?
06-03-2009, 11:31 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
That's the one point regarding the menu system. I think that it would be a good option (i.e., have a quickly accessible tick box that controls whether you see all of a menu or just a user-defined subset of it).

Do Canikon offer this feature?

That falls under the "customisation" category for me and there can hardly be too much of that. Yes, many options can complicate the settings considerably but then if you don't bother you don't need to deal with these parts. A happy user will find the camera simple and a demanding user will find it customisable.
Yup! You can build your own customized menu. With my Nikon, I would hide all the features that I don't access often, if at all. Things that you usually set only once. That way, things become faster to access and the whole menu becomes tidier/less cluttered.

You can even re-arrange the menu items to your liking! You can put your most used menu items up top.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
What "middle button"? The "OK" button? What inconsistency are you referring to?
Oh yeah sorry, I meant the OK button

Hmm I'll try to explain it the best way I can. When you are in the menu, and you want to change the Color Space (for example), you scroll down to highlight the right menu item with the directional arrows (up, down, left, right). Once you highlight it, one would have to press the -> (right) button to enter it. You can't use the OK button to enter that selection, if you do, you exit the menu. That's one thing that bugged me at first, I believe once you highlight the menu item you want, pressing OK means you want to enter that item. To exit the menu should be left to the MENU button.

Once you get into that submenu, and you choose Adobe RGB (for example), if you press OK you set the item but you leave the whole menu altogether. To just select the highlighted item and return to the previous menu, you have to press the <- (left) button.

It makes sense that you can use the left and right arrows to enter and go back submenus, yes. However, pressing OK should not let you leave the overall menu, but enter what you are highlighting. The two concepts can co-exist in the same interface.

Just like computers and everything. You highlight a button, you press ENTER to click it or enter it. Same goes for cellphones, you highlight a menu item and press the middle button of the directional arrow pad.

It's a very small detail, really. One that can easily be learned. The existing interface is already good BUT can be improved and be really polished

06-04-2009, 01:39 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike.P Quote
Not in the UK.
Price is about 30% more than the Nikon here.
Yes!!!! In the UK.

Do not forget that the Price has changed because after the D90, the Pound tanked, the Yen rose and they would be roughly the same worth nowadays.
Besides, When The K20D was announced in the UK, it was at 900 squid. I got mine day of release at 750 squid. I would imagine that the K-7 will drop its price before introduction in the UK, just like the K20D. I would see it more at the 1000 poundage mark. which will actually still be about 300 more than the D90, But not on release.
In real money terms, I think the K-7 is roughly around 100 pounds/dollars/euro more expensive.
I know that this is not the greatest argument, but it is an argument as to why the price seems higher.
Anyway, We will see what the price is when released.
But as you can get a D90 for 650, that will be hard to beat at the moment on release. But it will get there I think sooner rather than later to the 750 mark
06-04-2009, 02:38 AM   #36
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Wow, Nikon cheaper than Pentax? Ouch! Everywhere else I know Nikon's more expensive than Pentax and Canon.
06-04-2009, 06:09 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
You can build your own customized menu.
I think that is a very good feature. It may or may not be part of what the reviewer criticised.

QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
You can't use the OK button to enter that selection, if you do, you exit the menu.
Will the camera not accept/enter your selection and then exit? In this case it would save you an extra button press, although I can see that it may sometimes be inconvenient to navigate to a nearby place in the menu from scratch again, should you need to do this.

But that's what the "left arrow" key press is for in such cases.

QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
I believe once you highlight the menu item you want, pressing OK means you want to enter that item. To exit the menu should be left to the MENU button.
That's the way the K100D works. An OK button press will select and exit but only to the next level up. I think that's just fine and corresponds to a "combo box" selection where the combo box options also disappear one you have made a choice.

QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
Once you get into that submenu, and you choose Adobe RGB (for example), if you press OK you set the item but you leave the whole menu altogether. To just select the highlighted item and return to the previous menu, you have to press the <- (left) button.
I can see that this may get some getting used to but (without having had a chance to use it) I like it. It gives you both options: 1. select and dash out, plus 2. select and continue making choices in the same menu.

I don't see any inconsistency.

Having said that, my preferred way of "dashing out" is to tip the shutter button. That's so easy that I don't mind whether option 1 is available.

QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
Just like computers and everything.
If cameras worked according to the same UI principles then they'd be easy to use by computer/etc literate people, but not necessarily in an optimal way. If the "OK" button behaviour actually manages to save you key presses then it may be worth getting used to it.
06-04-2009, 07:46 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Will the camera not accept/enter your selection and then exit? In this case it would save you an extra button press, although I can see that it may sometimes be inconvenient to navigate to a nearby place in the menu from scratch again, should you need to do this.

But that's what the "left arrow" key press is for in such cases.

That's the way the K100D works. An OK button press will select and exit but only to the next level up. I think that's just fine and corresponds to a "combo box" selection where the combo box options also disappear one you have made a choice.


I can see that this may get some getting used to but (without having had a chance to use it) I like it. It gives you both options: 1. select and dash out, plus 2. select and continue making choices in the same menu.

I don't see any inconsistency.
I don't think I explained it correctly.

Pressing OK should be able to enter that menu item. Not so with the K20D, it exits the whole menu. To enter that menu item you have to press the right arrow button.

The logic behind this is when the user is navigating the menu he thinks "what am I trying to adjust or look for?"

Once you find the item you want to adjust i.e. Quality of the JPEG one thinks "OK this is what I'm looking for". Therefore you press OK to get in it. But you don't, the menu just disappears. Huh?

To get it you have to press the right arrow button, when the OK should also be able to get you in that submenu.

Get what I mean?


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If cameras worked according to the same UI principles then they'd be easy to use by computer/etc literate people, but not necessarily in an optimal way. If the "OK" button behaviour actually manages to save you key presses then it may be worth getting used to it.
Okay a better example, as I stated in my earlier post, is cellphones.

Scroll through the menu using your directional pad, highlight your Messages (for example). Logical step to get into it is to press the middle button or OK button right?

Works that way for pretty much, if not all, cellphones of all brands I've used that have directional pads with a center button.

It's something that other people are always asking me when they play around my camera "how do I change this setting? I'm highlighting it and when I press OK it disappears?"

It isn't a dealbreaker and can be learned, It's a quirk, HOWEVER it's pretty much a standard on designing menus and user interfaces for electronics. The OK button is is pressed to delve deeper into the highlighted item in the menu.

06-04-2009, 03:19 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
Pressing OK should be able to enter that menu item. Not so with the K20D, it exits the whole menu.
Thanks for the clarification. Now I get your point.

I guess it could be argued that as it is implemented the OK button has a consistent "exit" behaviour, but I can fully see your point and guess making "OK" behave as expected and use another button for exiting wouldn't loose anything but gain a more intuitive behaviour.
06-04-2009, 10:53 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Thanks for the clarification. Now I get your point.

I guess it could be argued that as it is implemented the OK button has a consistent "exit" behaviour, but I can fully see your point and guess making "OK" behave as expected and use another button for exiting wouldn't loose anything but gain a more intuitive behaviour.
Overall though the menus are quite pleasant and user friendly.

Anyway, that was quite off-topic, back to topic.

P.S. I'm quite a fan of your photos Class A, great stuff
06-05-2009, 03:18 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by soccerjoe5 Quote
P.S. I'm quite a fan of your photos Class A, great stuff
That's very encouraging to a beginner! Thanks a lot!! Many of your gallery and (almost countless) PPG images are beyond awesome. I'm officially impressed.
06-05-2009, 07:54 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Absolutely, welcome to our little corner of the internet. I had a look at your other posts and wonder what other cameras you've used? I see you've been looking at prime lenses and wonder if you've checked out the Limited series.
hi Peter,

I took some time looking at some of the limiteds photo results. and I must say that the 35mm f2.8 macro has caught my attention. definitely this one would be on my next must-buy lens after I had bought the K-7, probably a few months after that.

my list are the ff:

1. DA* 35mm f2.8 macro (decided)
2. DA* 50-135mm f2.8 (decided)
3. FA 50mm f2.8 macro (unsure, I need your opinion on this one)


thanks in advance, Peter.
06-05-2009, 09:56 AM   #43
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Pentaxor, this is kinda a seperate conversation from the main theme of the thread and you might want to post a question for general thoughts on the 50mm macro but IMO you're looking at 2 lenses that are very close to each other. I have the 50 and not the 35mm macro. My version is the FA50mm f2.8 and the DFA version is newer but from what I can tell the same lens optically. Sharp as a tack and great overall IQ. It's a favourite lens to use. But if you get the 35mm, I don't know that there'd be much benifit other than a little more shooting distance in the macro mode.

If you want a 50mm, then give the FA50mm f1.4 some serious consideration. Probably the best value for $$$ lens in the line. Fast for the low light situations you may encounter.

I've shopped mostly in the USA and have no regrets. Saved some money and got very good service.
06-05-2009, 05:20 PM   #44
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Thanks for the link
06-05-2009, 09:36 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Pentaxor, this is kinda a seperate conversation from the main theme of the thread and you might want to post a question for general thoughts on the 50mm macro but IMO you're looking at 2 lenses that are very close to each other. I have the 50 and not the 35mm macro. My version is the FA50mm f2.8 and the DFA version is newer but from what I can tell the same lens optically. Sharp as a tack and great overall IQ. It's a favourite lens to use. But if you get the 35mm, I don't know that there'd be much benifit other than a little more shooting distance in the macro mode.

If you want a 50mm, then give the FA50mm f1.4 some serious consideration. Probably the best value for $$$ lens in the line. Fast for the low light situations you may encounter.

I've shopped mostly in the USA and have no regrets. Saved some money and got very good service.

sorry for hijacking the thread. I made a new thread regarding that under Pentax Beginners. I would appreciate any insights that you have. tnx Peter.
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