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07-01-2009, 02:13 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dr_who Quote
I dunno I think I'm th eonly one on the forums who think the world increase of glass is probably more then just a money making scheme by the evil office people at Hoya/Pentax. I have no problem with the price increases but that may be because I don't have LBA. Also it just means you have to be more creative in saving yourself $ like self employment business assets at tax time.
Well, to be honest, buying anything new photographic at *all* has been a stretch. I've really done without a *lot* to take the past year or so to get myself a foothold in digital capability, as it was (Glad I grabbed my window of opportunity) ...there's definitely more to it, and who knows what the economy's going to do, but it certainly seems like lousy timing. I'm just hoping this isn't the sound of Hoya strangling the golden goose.

Glad I don't have LBA, but that's how people are supposed to *get* it: all these beautiful things that are not pushed into the 'Yah, maybe someday.' column and actually get B. Bought.

It won't hurt me too much if lens prices skyrocket, in a way, once I have my couple of nice primes and (grudgingly) a passable zoom, I can get by. But that won't help Pentax much. It's not just compared to other gear, it's also being able to sell the good stuff to people who *can't* buy the two thousand dollar canon or Nikon lens. They won't be running out and spending that, they'll just be not buying.

07-01-2009, 02:28 PM   #32
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My thoughts on this

1) Pentax didn't rise dramatically (almost not at all) prices for kit lenses and most "consumer" grade lens. In fact they heavily subsidize the price for both WR kit lenses. In fact they give you some sort of a rebate because those lenses will be sought after by a lot of older weather sealed body owners and you have to pay 150 Euro for both (combined MSRP of about 500 Euro).
2) IMO some prices are ridiculous (12-24 comes to mind) but some are reasonable for premium products. I guess the outrage is linked of brutal increase on some market but North America was traditionally subsidized compared to E.U. Now all the prices are more or less the same before tax. In the E.U. with few exceptions the prices are up by 30% tops.
3) Limited means exactly that ... so most Pentaxians must make some effort to buy even one.
4) The prices for FA Ltds seem high only is you think that you can buy one in the future. Believe me that an EOL announcement from Pentax will clear all stock even at these prices.
5) IMHO higher prices for most of the lenses in the upper segment means only that new variants will come at the same price and the current ones will go on sale until stock deplete.
6) Without any intentions to offend someone I don't think this forum (and the dpreview for that matter) is too representative for the Pentax *population*. First of all (very regretful) we don't have too many Japanese members and Japan is probably the most dense Pentax market and also one that prizes a lot the high end and new gear. Secondly most of us are here either after decades of Pentax passion, or for us, the younger ones, because we searched for a better alternative to Canikon in the last years and found Pentax. We're all accustomed with a Pentax that gave a bit less than other brands in some areas (and some more on others) but at a more attractive price. Maybe some of us aren't ready for what may become reality in a few years time when Pentax system will be a real and complete alternative to the big two at a similar cost.
7) I always believed that Hoya bought Pentax so they can sell high grade lenses so it makes no sense to act contrary IMO.
8) Hoya played its first card with the K-7 + dual WR kit lenses and seems like more than the old Pentax could of one (or wanted to). But they didn't materialized nothing in their lens strategy except cutting some old Pentax designs from the roadmap and giving up completely the roadmap marketing tool. I want to believe that something is comming up and I want to believe its big and integrated in a new strategy. I see some lenses being made redundant, some labeled as Hoya ans sold into multiple mounts, some new ones appear and most of all I want to believe that MANY will be improved, updated with modern features. I want to see A.B. Coatings put on all high end lenses, the dual AF design blown into oblivion, the first 2 DA* zooms rebuild from the ground up with 2009 technology, more powerful motors installed in general, weather protection generalized on DA lenses, some optical designs updated and so on.

Disclaimer: the above have no fundament in any *inside informations* it happens that it makes sense to me.

Radu
07-01-2009, 02:28 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by AM2 Quote
Pros do need a constant source of glass but not on a "want" basis, but on a "need" basis. And they don't usually worry about a price increase as much as they worry about whether the work they do will end up paying for the gear they are looking to buy - in a reasonable amount of time - or not. I know because I've been one, these days only part of my income comes from photography, the rest is from web-design.
correct, but most of them don't buy leica either. we are not talking 10% here, we are talking almost double, that's why i asked if you read what people are complaining about

QuoteQuote:
I have been reading what people are saying and no offense to anyone, but it mostly boils down to addicts complaining about price rises on their next "fix".
no offense taken, i agree with you, and i am one of the addicts (have been addicted to photography eversince i can remember). what you do not seem to take into account is that this is the addiction which generates sales, and makes money. especially in a "crisis" situation, if you place your offer in the luxury realm people are most likely to say "oaky, i'll pass, let's wait till things get better". and pro's are the extreme example, they hardly matter these days, photography is now a mainstream hobby, that's where the money is. which part of "canon is already cheaper and i am not sure i can justify shooting pentax" is not clear to you?
07-01-2009, 02:29 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by AM2 Quote
Pros do need a constant source of glass but not on a "want" basis, but on a "need" basis. And they don't usually worry about a price increase as much as they worry about whether the work they do will end up paying for the gear they are looking to buy - in a reasonable amount of time - or not. I know because I've been one, these days only part of my income comes from photography, the rest is from web-design.
Pros are looking for work , even if they do not want/need to buy, they need to eat.
Unfortunately for them the crisis started the moment more or less affordable dslr's came. Now anybody can upload pics to news agencies, more and more people ask friends and relatices "if they can shoot their wedding"...

Hmm, all these rises maye have nothing to do with the economy at all, it is just the pro photographers who say "hey we won't promote Pentax unless you raise prices...

QuoteOriginally posted by Slugger Quote
Look around you..people are losing their jobs. This financial crisis is not a figment of your imagination.

Pentax is the last of the camera manufacturers to raise their prices. Canon and Nikon did it already. Sony and Oly are always overpriced. I wonder what their calculators are saying now! If anything, prices should be going down in a crisis to stimulate buying. I for one, would love a K7 and a DA15 but my wallet can't justify it right now.
Well, who knows, this is just one price increase. Canon and Nikon may rise again, as do Oly and Sony. And yes, maybe another price increase for Pentax in a years time!!!

Prices going down in a crisis? I doubt if it would boost sales that much. As people eran less, they would not buy anyway, no matter what low price... Well maybe if it gets very low but prices of the materials used in manufacturing are no doubt rising as well. It is not just the Yen, it is also the cost of raw materials that should be taken into account.

07-01-2009, 02:45 PM   #35
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Some well-considered points, there, Radua, but this whole new system hasn't dropped out of the sky yet, and it's a lot harder to expect someone to spend the *same* money as for a Nikon when the primes are the same price, if you can have them.



Frankly, the big appeal for me to Pentax is that they *don't* market things based on the policy, "Not rich? have a kit lens. If you were serious about photography, you'd be richer." If they'd just promote, and fill out some stuff, they could really be taking the *enthusiast* market (Always a Pentax stronghold, it seems, at least till they decided, 'Hey, let's paint everything a friffy silver and make it too light to take seriously. ' ... by storm, though no one likes to be called that.

This K-7 could really do it if they hold the line better on prices. ( Maybe they 'can't,' but... )

I just don't need an EOS-1 sized beast, and if I did, I'd cheerfully be getting paid enough to crank that kind of thing. Diversity in the market is useful to all of us.


A weatherproof kit lens is still a kit lens. Nice to see, but not doing me any good.

The point about Leica is pretty good, too: a lot of pros wouldn't consider shooting Leica for their jobs cause, nice products as they are, they're *too pricey* to generally field a system, and if you don't like what you can have, you're much more stuck.

Pentax still has a way to go before they can really command the top market prices. Not that everyone else's prices aren't going up too, but they'd really best not lose the position as the value-for-money brand. They aren't competing with the next d300, they've competing (and blowing away) what else the money could buy.

The price of a lot of things are going up, anyway. But they've got to be careful about changing philosophy too casually. And especially arrogantly.

See, really, if they discontinued the Limiteds, they might sell out, at a higher price, indeed, but a lot of people might discontinue their Pentax. "If I need that, it's out there" is a powerful draw to buying *any* camera system. If I could have plunked down several grand at once, I probably would have gone Nikon, anyway. Grudgingly in some respects. ... Just cause Pentax wasn't quite there yet.

Yaknow, if they want to make the Limiteds more 'limited,' ...OK, bring back the 28/2. It'll do.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 07-01-2009 at 03:08 PM.
07-01-2009, 02:46 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Slugger Quote
Look around you..people are losing their jobs. This financial crisis is not a figment of your imagination.
you don't want to get me started on the subject. people have been losing jobs for ever, it is also true that people have been getting jobs in pretty much the same way they lose them now (worthless people doing worthless jobs). no offense meant to anyone, but i have seen it around me and i am sick of it, the "crisis" is no surprise to me, if you sell shit for big money, and people are buying it, sooner or later you will find that the money you get for the said shit become worthless, if the practice is generalized enough, you will also find that the people you used to shovel said shit are not good for anything else (that's all you thought them to do, not their fault), and now you are desperate to do something which has some sort of value. however, the funny thing here is that we are not yet at that point, it seems the shit shovelers are still trying hard to save their "way of life" (talking about the companies), with government support and so on, and what i have seen so far seems to indicate that no, people don't lose jobs, on the contrary, more people are sought to shovel the shit. this does not mean things are rose, it merely means, imho, that the buble didn't yet burst, contrary to what "they" say, so be prepared for much harder times...

radu: your thoughts are interesting, but i think you are a bit ahead here. if they lose too much of their customer base now, they might not get the chance to show us what a "run for their money" they can give canon and nikon. right now, i can see people scratching their heads in disbelief and reconsidering their decision to buy a k7, and these are pentax users on this forum, not potential new buyers! their japan customer base does not interest me, honestly, the prices there are very different anyway (asia in general), and not only for pentax; if they want to show the finger to the rest of the world and concentrate on the "local" market, not much we can do, i guess, but i hardly see the point in these overinflated prices, or are we being handed the hat?
07-01-2009, 03:26 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Some well-considered points, there, Radua, but this whole new system hasn't dropped out of the sky yet, and it's a lot harder to expect someone to spend the *same* money as for a Nikon when the primes are the same price, if you can have them.



Frankly, the big appeal for me to Pentax is that they *don't* market things based on the policy, "Not rich? have a kit lens. If you were serious about photography, you'd be richer." If they'd just promote, and fill out some stuff, they could really be taking the *enthusiast* market (Always a Pentax stronghold, it seems, at least till they decided, 'Hey, let's paint everything a friffy silver and make it too light to take seriously. ' ... by storm, though no one likes to be called that.

This K-7 could really do it if they hold the line better on prices. ( Maybe they 'can't,' but... )

I just don't need an EOS-1 sized beast, and if I did, I'd cheerfully be getting paid enough to crank that kind of thing. Diversity in the market is useful to all of us.


A weatherproof kit lens is still a kit lens. Nice to see, but not doing me any good.

The point about Leica is pretty good, too: a lot of pros wouldn't consider shooting Leica for their jobs cause, nice products as they are, they're *too pricey* to generally field a system, and if you don't like what you can have, you're much more stuck.

Pentax still has a way to go before they can really command the top market prices. Not that everyone else's prices aren't going up too, but they'd really best not lose the position as the value-for-money brand. They aren't competing with the next d300, they've competing (and blowing away) what else the money could buy.

The price of a lot of things are going up, anyway. But they've got to be careful about changing philosophy too casually. And especially arrogantly.

See, really, if they discontinued the Limiteds, they might sell out, at a higher price, indeed, but a lot of people might discontinue their Pentax. "If I need that, it's out there" is a powerful draw to buying *any* camera system. If I could have plunked down several grand at once, I probably would have gone Nikon, anyway. Grudgingly in some respects. ... Just cause Pentax wasn't quite there yet.

Yaknow, if they want to make the Limiteds more 'limited,' ...OK, bring back the 28/2. It'll do.
QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
radu: your thoughts are interesting, but i think you are a bit ahead here. if they lose too much of their customer base now, they might not get the chance to show us what a "run for their money" they can give canon and nikon. right now, i can see people scratching their heads in disbelief and reconsidering their decision to buy a k7, and these are pentax users on this forum, not potential new buyers! their japan customer base does not interest me, honestly, the prices there are very different anyway (asia in general), and not only for pentax; if they want to show the finger to the rest of the world and concentrate on the "local" market, not much we can do, i guess, but i hardly see the point in these overinflated prices, or are we being handed the hat?
I don't think most of us realize how few DA* and Ltds are sold each year compared with the kit lenses and mid level ones. I bet 20K for all DA* and DA/FA Ltds made new in a year is more than generous. Compare that with many hundreds of thousands of kit lenses and DA 55-300 for example. Even better compare that with the 240K K-7 Hoya wants to make in 12 months
My bet is that the next two lenses to get the W.R. treatment will be DA 55-300 and a new super zoom to replace the 18-250. Even more I bet that no other lens than the 2 kit and the DA Ltd will ever have a shaft driven AF or dual AF system. All will be KAF3 and that means people with less than K10D may want to buy from the last stock of compatible lenses for them.
We crave here super glass and make efforts to get even a small part of this treasure but most people just don't care. The future of Pentax lies in good new bodies and decent kit lenses that offer more than brand X', Y' or Z' new bodies and kit lenses. Besides I bet Pentax hopes to attract people from other systems with the help of K-7' smallness and that will go very well with the DA Ltds. And for someone who buys an APS-C system because his/her FF is too big on occasions I can bet a few hundred bucks more will mean nothing for what is a premium product anyway. Like I said, premium glass could be scarce in the future and Hoya could sell even at this prices very well. So, in their shoes what would you do?

Radu
07-01-2009, 04:25 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Like I said, premium glass could be scarce in the future and Hoya could sell even at this prices very well. So, in their shoes what would you do?

Radu
i would double the price of premium glass (which is most of the glass, btw, everything except the two kit lenses), and would expect people to buy from me premium glass which is more expensive than canikon premium glass. ?

i see what you're getting at, but people who buy into dslrs of the level of k-7 usually are willing (and prepared or preparing) to spend money on premium glass. even if premium glass doesn't sell as well as kit lenses, you cannot expect to sell premium anything unless you are competitive throughout the range, it's tough, but it's the way it goes, at least in the photography market (and camera makers have done it to themselves, btw)

your case seems to be that most people won't notice anyway, or care, and when and if they come to need or want premium glass, they'll just swallow and take out the cash. it might have been true a decade or two ago, but i don't think it's true anymore these days, and the reactions on this forum seems to support that idea: people do do their homework before spending a lot of money, and people do care.

let me put it another way: pentax has had the advantage of premium glass and camera bodies (in some respects at least) for less money so far. what does it have if that's lost? "we, well, ...you know.. we still rock, right?". smaller size? (want to take oly on?) primes? (ofcourse, we love the primes, but the "others" are not doing that bad either, and could do better in a hurry if they decided to; and besides, how much are you willing to pay, overall, for that advantage, and how many are willing to pay which price?). the problem is that pentax seems to be positioning themselves in a very tight spot, at a very unfortunate time, you could say they are positioning themselves for the kill, but i can't see anybody getting hurt but them

07-01-2009, 04:36 PM   #39
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In general, what Nonok said.


QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I don't think most of us realize how few DA* and Ltds are sold each year compared with the kit lenses and mid level ones. I bet 20K for all DA* and DA/FA Ltds made new in a year is more than generous. Compare that with many hundreds of thousands of kit lenses and DA 55-300 for example.

Like I said, premium glass could be scarce in the future and Hoya could sell even at this prices very well. So, in their shoes what would you do?

Radu
Frankly, if the higher-grade lenses sell a lot of kit-grade glass through system prestige, it's probably not the best idea to try and turn them into a cash cow. (And the quality of the kit lenses is one reason, apart from hand-me-downs, I'd give a Pentax DSLR to my little sister, who's part former art school student and three parts harried Mom at this point)


If we stop thinking about pros and the independently-wealthy-hobbyist a moment, think about who's the new photo enthusiast market that *wants* the nice glass but can't justify a lens that costs like a used car:

Teachers, students, artists, documentarians... People who aren't necessarily 'big market share' but have *influence.*

Pentax used to have darn near every high school and college in America as a *feeder school* till they went all friffy and plastic and automated. (And shunted the K1000 off to less-than impressive factories to lose its reputation)

A lot of the people inclined to want to *buy* more than the kit lenses come from there, even if they can't justify the 'premium' bucks like someone who can write it off as a business expense.

Now, it's *great* they make the weatherproof consumer lenses, this'll do wonderfully, I think. But they don't want the 'loyalists' and enthusiasts everyone goes to for advice to be like, 'Eh, I have this cause it was serious stuff for a relative bargain, but now the upgrade's problematic.'

That's advertising you can't buy. Especially when sales bonuses to store clerks won't be doing it much longer for the big brands.


Basically, they've been working hard to get back that quality image, and that 'Putting quality in your hands' image, particularly. When they try to be too 'cutting edge' they tend to mess up. 'Ah, here's an SF-1, great Pentax glass, here, look at this, ...wonderful optics, people aren't ready for the plastic case, aaaaaaand... the stickers are falling off.

They've got kind of a history of flailing, usually by 'Let's discard what we do well and take a *new direction* (which happens to be following the big boys) ...nowadays, it's not like what a lot of what Pentax *does* make isn't well *worth* by many standards what the other brands are doing, but... they oughtn't to give ground there like it's a good thing to do. They're more *competitive* on specs, with the K-7, but that doesn't mean they're *caught up* on those terms, on paper, at least.

The glass is as good, or better, than the competition can put in your hands for the money. The fewer people that can get it, the less it matters. It's still gonna be made in Vietnam, a lot of it, even if you raise it to Japan prices. It can even be like, 'Ok, so what if the 16-50 2.8 has a few defective ones out there. For 600 bucks, *you can have* a really state of the art fast zoom. Even if you have to be willing to give it a couple tries. (though that's not a great idea, either, to put your customers there. (nd will raising the price fix that QC issue that came about, and did they fix it already. I'd have been all over that lens as a priority, if I liked my standard zooms that wide. (I'd rather have a nice 24-75 or something, always went for the 35-105 with film, myself. ) Handing someone a kit lens isn't the same.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 07-01-2009 at 04:54 PM.
07-01-2009, 05:21 PM   #40
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Price increases in glass means you can deduct more off your taxes come tax time
07-01-2009, 05:24 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
i would double the price of premium glass (which is most of the glass, btw, everything except the two kit lenses), and would expect people to buy from me premium glass which is more expensive than canikon premium glass. ?

USofA is a the Canikon land in the sense that both companies charge FAR less money before tax than in E.U. No harm done but not exactly the best benchmark either. Besides some part of American sales are grey exports to other place just because of that. And in Hoya reports they say that the sales in the US are less than those in Japan for less than half the population. If we're talking about prices let's not chose the best/worst scenario. I am interested in Europe and know little about other markets. And I am sure that Hoya thinks at a global scale.

One more important aspect: my gut feeling is that well in excess of 70-80 percent of mid range cameras are bought as a kit/dual kit/other mid range kit and let's assume that at least half of the rest who buy the body only already have some premium glass.

Last but not least I don't agree that everything (or most of it) besides the kit lenses are premium glass. And the prices for mid level lenses rise by 50-100 Euro here (all DA except 12-24). Ltds and *s went up by 20-35%


i see what you're getting at, but people who buy into dslrs of the level of k-7 usually are willing (and prepared or preparing) to spend money on premium glass. even if premium glass doesn't sell as well as kit lenses, you cannot expect to sell premium anything unless you are competitive throughout the range, it's tough, but it's the way it goes, at least in the photography market (and camera makers have done it to themselves, btw)

I think a huge proportion will never pass the original lenses because of weight and cost. For a huge number that IQ is more than enough. Of course IMO!

your case seems to be that most people won't notice anyway, or care, and when and if they come to need or want premium glass, they'll just swallow and take out the cash. it might have been true a decade or two ago, but i don't think it's true anymore these days, and the reactions on this forum seems to support that idea: people do do their homework before spending a lot of money, and people do care.

No, I see it like the second FF craze at a much lower scale. Remember we're talking about limited supply and at least a part of people who'll get the K-7 in addition to a Canikon system. And that is worldwide not just in USA were prices are best for Canikon gear. Some people may want to be different adnd now have a close to Canikon (quality/performance) body to try this.

let me put it another way: pentax has had the advantage of premium glass and camera bodies (in some respects at least) for less money so far. what does it have if that's lost? "we, well, ...you know.. we still rock, right?". smaller size? (want to take oly on?) primes? (ofcourse, we love the primes, but the "others" are not doing that bad either, and could do better in a hurry if they decided to; and besides, how much are you willing to pay, overall, for that advantage, and how many are willing to pay which price?). the problem is that pentax seems to be positioning themselves in a very tight spot, at a very unfortunate time, you could say they are positioning themselves for the kill, but i can't see anybody getting hurt but them :}

You see this as a colaps I see it as a market shifting and targeting new people with a new combo of camera and lenses. Of course not good for us but like I said if more money means more and better gear at higher quality levels it's a way to progress. But some people will be left behind without any question.
Regards,
Radu
07-01-2009, 05:38 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dr_who Quote
Price increases in glass means you can deduct more off your taxes come tax time
That's why I'm not really crying for the pros making big money shooting Pentax. But they're still expenses. And recouping the cost doesn't help too much if what you need is a lens to replace one that the fashion model ate, or something. If it's not as expensive, you can kind of 'self-insure' with reasonable security it won't cramp your style.

I'd rather see Pentax *not* follow the lead of other brands and 'hierarchicalize' their lens and camera lineup to the extent that others have done, starting with the beast of a papparazo body and working their way 'down' in basic features till you get a consumer appliance, (in fact, I think they forced the other brands to come out with some affordable primes that'll function on their lower end bodies, for what that's worth, good on those brands, anyway) ....if Pentax started adopting the mentality that everyone who doesn't want bigger and pricier everything, and if they don't they're an idiot who doesn't 'deserve it,' well, it'd be a good reason not to take any chances with the third brand, really.

I always say, putting that simple twenty cent PC synch terminal on the K20d, that was something that said, 'Ah, the old class is back. That shows some respect.'


(BTW, Radua, that's why I also have absolutely no interest in Pentax reducing the compatibility with old glass any more than they have. If I can afford fully functional glass I don't use much but feel the need to have covered, either for optical quality or just-getting-the-shot-with-the AF, *then* maybe I can start saving up for that FA 31, and the new 55, and a 77. And then eventually that little 21... And I'm still kind of holding back hoping a modern flash unit worth the price-to-me appears.) If I couldn't drop right into an FA 50, my most-used FOV, I might be with another brand.

With the economy in general, price rises may be unavoidable, *but,* I sure wouldn't endorse exclusivity as a philosophy, certainly not before the rep is really (re) earned.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 07-01-2009 at 06:05 PM.
07-01-2009, 06:00 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
In general, what Nonok said.




Frankly, if the higher-grade lenses sell a lot of kit-grade glass through system prestige, it's probably not the best idea to try and turn them into a cash cow. (And the quality of the kit lenses is one reason, apart from hand-me-downs, I'd give a Pentax DSLR to my little sister, who's part former art school student and three parts harried Mom at this point)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that because I think otherwise. IMO it's better to have EXCEPTIONAL lenses with cult status than to price your top shelf glass in other's mid range territory. I love all my DA* but between the 2009 60-250 and the 2007 16-50 it's quite a difference and Hoya IMO needs to redesign the first two zooms with all their current technology (and yes they can ask 1k a piece after that).


If we stop thinking about pros and the independently-wealthy-hobbyist a moment, think about who's the new photo enthusiast market that *wants* the nice glass but can't justify a lens that costs like a used car:

Teachers, students, artists, documentarians... People who aren't necessarily 'big market share' but have *influence.*

Yep, like the lone Pentaxian among 30 Canikonians will show them the light. Sorry but how many *my canikon rulz, your Pentax is a second grade camera and sucks* threads did you seen lately here? Some people (and not few) just want to do whatever Ashton (whatever his name is) Kutchner does .

Pentax used to have darn near every high school and college in America as a *feeder school* till they went all friffy and plastic and automated. (And shunted the K1000 off to less-than impressive factories to lose its reputation)

I take your word for it but this seems to me like distant past.

A lot of the people inclined to want to *buy* more than the kit lenses come from there, even if they can't justify the 'premium' bucks like someone who can write it off as a business expense.

Yes and some will still chose Pentax if they feel it's best for them and if what can Pentax offer is of better performance/price ratio. Remember that Canon still don't have something a w.s. body bellow 1D M3 and the combination of D300 + various w.s. lenses from Nikon it's not as inexpensive as some try to portrait it.

Now, it's *great* they make the weatherproof consumer lenses, this'll do wonderfully, I think. But they don't want the 'loyalists' and enthusiasts everyone goes to for advice to be like, 'Eh, I have this cause it was serious stuff for a relative bargain, but now the upgrade's problematic.'

1) Like I said before for some (many IMO) there will be no upgrade ever.
2) The logical flaw in your argument is IMO that you suggest that a lot of people will leave the system and few will enter. Hence the price of used gear will plummet and there will either be too expensive to leave (and complete the difference towards Canikon gear) or too affordable and appealing to enter. Neither will apply and the system will maintain its value especially since we have a new premium body. If Hoya would of discontinued Pentax cameras then yes the price of all gear would of get to the floor. Now, I don't think so even more it's a matter of paying an admission fee. Bad for us, good for them and I bet you'd of done the same! I won't sell my 7 lenses for peanuts just because I cannot buy the DA* 300 right now! No can do!


That's advertising you can't buy. Especially when sales bonuses to store clerks won't be doing it much longer for the big brands.

I have the feeling that you talk USA here and the world for Hoya seems larger. For me their first test was K-7 and I am pretty confident that they did better than the old Pentax could of done.

Basically, they've been working hard to get back that quality image, and that 'Putting quality in your hands' image, particularly. When they try to be too 'cutting edge' they tend to mess up. 'Ah, here's an SF-1, great Pentax glass, here, look at this, ...wonderful optics, people aren't ready for the plastic case, aaaaaaand... the stickers are falling off.

They've got kind of a history of flailing, usually by 'Let's discard what we do well and take a *new direction* (which happens to be following the big boys) ...nowadays, it's not like what a lot of what Pentax *does* make isn't well *worth* by many standards what the other brands are doing, but... they oughtn't to give ground there like it's a good thing to do. They're more *competitive* on specs, with the K-7, but that doesn't mean they're *caught up* on those terms, on paper, at least.

Hoya itself said that the old strategy was failed and I agree. Let's see the new one.

The glass is as good, or better, than the competition can put in your hands for the money. The fewer people that can get it, the less it matters. It's still gonna be made in Vietnam, a lot of it, even if you raise it to Japan prices. It can even be like, 'Ok, so what if the 16-50 2.8 has a few defective ones out there. For 600 bucks, *you can have* a really state of the art fast zoom. Even if you have to be willing to give it a couple tries. (though that's not a great idea, either, to put your customers there. (nd will raising the price fix that QC issue that came about, and did they fix it already. I'd have been all over that lens as a priority, if I liked my standard zooms that wide. (I'd rather have a nice 24-75 or something, always went for the 35-105 with film, myself. ) Handing someone a kit lens isn't the same.

Like I said this is the real problem IMO: they need to give something MORE for the asking price. Ok, make the 16-50 1K but make it better than Tamron optically, with the latest coatings, with better mechanics and with a blazing motor inside. Instead of making the old Pentax style (a bit more, a bit less for half the price of Canikon).
My final 2 cents for the night.
Regards,
Radu
07-01-2009, 06:14 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
My final 2 cents for the night.
Regards,
Radu
Well, I can't quote you point for point, but, actually, Pentax shouldn't be *trying* to compete with the crowd-followers. Who *cares* if they have the biggest market share of Aston Kutcher (whoever that is) groupies... they don't have to be the biggest to happily make their money and have their loyal customers.

Which people seem to forget. Pentax aren't interlopers on the Canon v Nikon feud, ...they're a camera company: to 'win,' all they need to do is make some money.

And they won't do that by playing to their weaknesses. They need to play to the *strengths.*


Better glass. In your hand. That's the *big one.* Right next to not needing to buy a two thousand dollar beast to have a camera that feels right and doesn't treat you like two control rings are 'just for moneymakers'


You know, some of us actually kind of *like* a camera company that takes their time. I've got this K20d. Makes photos like a friend's whose camera body cost a grand more. And there's *nothing stupid on this camera.* Except maybe that all the focusing screens you can get, even the one with the technical gradations, are all kind of optimized for kit lenses.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 07-01-2009 at 06:19 PM.
07-01-2009, 06:35 PM   #45
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Radu,

I hope for Hoya/Pentax's sake you are correct. But I can't help but feel that RML, Peter Zack and Nanok are right. (leastwise that is why I've stayed with Pentax) Unfortunately Pentax's decision on these ridiculous price hikes (way above where the yen has risen against other currencies) has alienated a serious segment of their traditional base. Maybe they'll get away with it, who knows? If the new lens prices are going to go that high than the used prices will follow. If I can get 1/2 to 2/3 what a new lens costs for my gear, than I'd sell mine in a NY minute and go on to Canikon land. Yes, I love my FA ltd's and my 12-24 and my FA 20mm. But not enough to think seriously about another brand if I: a) can't afford the several lenses I still want and b) can afford them from another brand with the sale of my pentax gear.

NaCl(not even if I hit the lotto)H2O
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