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05-04-2007, 04:46 AM   #31
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Forgive me...but I'm still a bit skeptical about Pentax's future. I'm just going to keep using my equipment and see ehat the future holds.

05-04-2007, 05:28 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Not me. I personally would be happy if Pentax released nothing but lenses for the next two years. Especially if they could mix in a few lenses that I can afford.

Will
Will,
I couldn't agree more.

Ben,
Thanks for sharing the information.

I actually like contrast (pun intended) of opinion between Ben and Rice High. In reality there is a lot to be excited about and some areas of concern.

Best to all.
05-04-2007, 05:50 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wethphotography Quote
I actually like contrast (pun intended) of opinion between Ben and Rice High.
Contrast mostly comes from strikingly different levels of both in terms of access to internal information, relation to Pentax and type (and results) of practical usage of Pentax equipment.
05-04-2007, 05:52 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Outdated ?? Give me a break !! The K10D was released at the end of november last year. It is not even 6 months old, and its feature set still beats the crap out of the comparable offerings from Nikon & Canon. Actually, there is *nothing* comparable at its price point.

The K100D is a bit older, but I don't see how it is outdated either.
Well, are we talking about new models can only see the light in the end of this year? And, haven't I talked about in early next year, few buyers will still buy the K100 and K10? (because most of the interested buyers have already bought them, I said)

05-04-2007, 06:03 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Thanks for the insights. Where do you get your informations from?
If one has followed the links of my articles, it can be seen that the sources of information are from Reuters, Japanese Yomiuri Daily Online, Bloombleg and Asahi News and etc., of which the original articles have all been linked to and posted.

QuoteQuote:
I doubt that under the circumstances that PENTAX are in a position that might be considered too dire. The fact that PENTAX are investing heavily in all of their future "PMA" type shows is indicative of their forward and positive thinking about their future.
Minolta did invest heavily before they were sold to Konica, remember the 7s and A1 prosumers? KM did invest heavily in their new DSLR lineup, namely the D7D (M7D) and the D5D (M5D) with new lens lineup which are "co-developed" with Tamron, but then?

On the other hand, can we see some lights of the similarity of the Minolta case as what happens to Pentax now?

QuoteQuote:
None the less, that is only your opinion. Thanks for sharing it with all of us, even though it casts a dark paradigm over the mind set of potential Pentax users
Of course, my posts constitute my opinions :-) But for the dark paradigm you supposed "created" by my posts is not a true case. I have quoted facts with *open* public sources of information, but not "insider" news.
05-04-2007, 06:11 AM   #36
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Thank you again RiceHigh !

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Ben, thanks for sharing but I just wish to point out new DSLRs from Pentax is indeed an old news..

Indeed, Pentax's engineers' chief had previously disclosed their plan and intention already, they said "one new replacement model per year" and otherwise it will be too long for the product cycle:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: PMA Disappointment (but there is hope)

So, now that their target cannot be met, if only two new models will arrive not until fall 07. At least the K100D has been more than 1.5 years old when new model arrives.

Moreover, I don't believe that the K100 and K10 can still last to early next year, they are simply outdated and few new buyers will be interested in them. For those who are interested, most of them would have already bought it.

Honestly speaking, the key concern on Pentax now is just about if Pentax can get throught the crisis on June 22, when it will decide if Pentax will be swallowed by Hoya or not:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Internal Struggle within Pentax Escalates

If there is no conclusion on the issue and not even to mention about confirmaton on if the Pentax camera division will survive or not, I think no plan of any future camera product development can actually be implemented and come true. Enough said.

At last, the DA Star zooms, which were targeted to be available in Dec. 2006 in the previous Pentax published roadmap have already been delayed for two times and now it is said at fall July 07. Yet no body knows if in fall July the lenses will really come, or not.

In short, when Pentax's headquarters in Japan is now in great trouble and instability, I can't see what anyone in the branch office anywhere outside Japan says can be taken very seriously as the uncertainty factors prevail, very frankly.
for bringing everyone down after Ben had such good news about Pentax's plans for the very near future !!!!!!


wll
05-04-2007, 06:25 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by wll Quote
for bringing everyone down after Ben had such good news about Pentax's plans for the very near future !!!!!!


wll
In fact, Ben's new news for his recent talk with Pentax France is old news when one has seen the Japanese DC Watch Impress's interview with Pentax chief engineer of their design team before.

For those who haven't followed my blog entry links I provided, I post here again for the direct link for the interview article:-

【PMA07】1年半のモデルチェンジサイクルは長すぎる (in Japanese)

and here is a human (not machine) translation of it by our forum pal:-

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/4337-translation-p...-strategy.html

Well, we can see that again Pentax's target has now been "postponed", otherwise, we shall be able to see the K100D replacement by July this summer! but not in late 2007 as Ben tells us. Fortunately, the two new DSLRs are still there according to what Ben says..

But then how much hope we should put on such a rumour and even that paperware specs are not available yet? (Sorry, ben, no offence intended, but by definition it's clearly a rumour). And, what do you think a quote from someone from Pentax France is more reliable or the interview with the Chief Engineer published by the famous website DC Watch Impress of Japan?

For anyone who can't believe and not convinced, just think about it..
05-04-2007, 06:35 AM   #38
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Depends on the sensor.

QuoteOriginally posted by scg Quote
Hi Steve,

You have me stumped by this paragraph

I get the K100/10MP/SSM part and there is no problem there.

However, the D200 competitor part vs K10D confuses me. As a hard core Pentaxian I think that the K10D matches up well but just a tad short of the D200. My understanding is that while the K10D will be around, there will be an upscaled
DSLR camera made that will exceed the D200/K10D standards outright.

Have I been misled in my conversations or am I misreading your direction here.
(It wouldn't be the first time I've missed the obvious in my life )

Stephen
The K10D really competes against the D80 but adds SR and weather sealing which immediately makes folk think of the D200. I think its worth comparing but the D200 trounces it in a number of ways including burst speed, the exposure system, mag body and flash features (as you would expect given its higher price). However it does use the same sensor hence the priblem - why would you upgrade from a Nikon D80 to a D200? The D40x, D80 and D200 all use the same sensor and produce the same RAW files so the 2X price difference is purely down to body features.

The D2X on the other hand uses a proprietary Nikon designed sensor that I dont think Pentax have access to, so they are limited in sensor choidces unless Sony have their much rumoured 12MP APSC chip ready for market.

So the question is are Pentax aiming at the D200 level or the D2X level (perhaps with the new rumoured Sony chip) or somewhere in between? My bet is somewhere in between with the feature set/performance of the D200 in a K10 sized body with a 12MP sensor aimed both to kill off the D200 and hurt the Canon 5D as well.

This would leave room for a further pro model above that when the chips are available -possibly a 1.3 crop with around 16MP. I dont think Pentax will chase the ID mk3 (too specialised) or the 1DS mk2 (they have the 645D for that). They will want to make a reasonaly fast, pro build camera with good resolution and some very cool features somewhere around the D2X level (I suspect Nikon will be making a very similar camera with a very similar specification).

As I said there is room for 2 models above and below the K10D - there is still a market for a <$500 base bones 6MP SLR which I think the K100D will become - gradually dropping pricewise to keep pace with the D40. The K200D will be aimed directly at the Canon 400D and Alpha 100 and will be a faster, snappier 10MP version of the K100D possibly restyled to take the LiION battery.

Now of course this could all be wrong - I'm just speculating - but a 6 model lineuip for Pentax would be very cool and according to Ben 5 of those will be out by the end of the year which will really put them on the map.

05-04-2007, 06:51 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
unless Sony have their much rumoured 12MP APSC chip ready for market
I think that's the main reason they'd be forced to replace the K10D w/ a K10DS or some other follow-on. Nikon will switch to it, forcing Canon to increase their MPix count as well.
At least the good thing about this is the rumors are that the 12MP sensor has more low light sensitivity because it's 1.25x...
05-04-2007, 06:53 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
The K10D really competes against the D80 but adds SR and weather sealing which immediately makes folk think of the D200. I think its worth comparing but the D200 trounces it in a number of ways including burst speed, the exposure system, mag body and flash features (as you would expect given its higher price).
Yep, you've nailed the key difference between the K10D and D200, or even the D80 and the actual weaknesses of the K10D against the competition.

QuoteQuote:
However it does use the same sensor hence the priblem - why would you upgrade from a Nikon D80 to a D200? The D40x, D80 and D200 all use the same sensor and produce the same RAW files so the 2X price difference is purely down to body features.
Not really. The D200 has a high speed sensor of different type which has been used in the D200 only, whereas A100, K10D, D80, D40x all use the other same sensors. See:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: The Secrets of the K10D (Part 1 of 3) - The Heart: CCD Imager

QuoteQuote:
The D2X on the other hand uses a proprietary Nikon designed sensor that I dont think Pentax have access to, so they are limited in sensor choidces unless Sony have their much rumoured 12MP APSC chip ready for market.
You're right, the main difficulty faced by Pentax is that they have no sensor of their own. Canon and Sony have but Nikon is not much better in position than Pentax indeed.

QuoteQuote:
So the question is are Pentax aiming at the D200 level or the D2X level (perhaps with the new rumoured Sony chip) or somewhere in between? My bet is somewhere in between with the feature set/performance of the D200 in a K10 sized body with a 12MP sensor aimed both to kill off the D200 and hurt the Canon 5D as well.
Aiming at true pro level is meaningless business wise for Pentax. They should first make a D40x and 400D class entry level popular models in order to increase the popularity and to earn some income for the company's further survival.

QuoteQuote:
gradually dropping pricewise to keep pace with the D40. The K200D will be aimed directly at the Canon 400D and Alpha 100 and will be a faster, snappier 10MP version of the K100D possibly restyled to take the LiION battery.
But then when the K200D can come, Pentax has already missed the boat again, as 500D is around the corner again. So, that's why Pentax is always losing the game. Nikon caught up quickly but they are still not the first one to lead the market. Pentax is the last one who tries to catch up, but always too late.

QuoteQuote:
Now of course this could all be wrong - I'm just speculating - but a 6 model lineuip for Pentax would be very cool and according to Ben 5 of those will be out by the end of the year which will really put them on the map.
The fact is that Pentax has no such production capability for more models nor such a numerous model is needed for Pentax, for the small market share and demand of their products.

What make senses is a two to three models lineup, with product cycle not more than one year. And for each model update, true revision to both the hardware and software should be made instead of tweaking with minor things. Just say the wonky 16-segment metering system, which was developed for the film *ist SLR, should be replaced.

In fact, Canon and Nikon's metering department are far more superior and accurate to that of Pentax, so Pentax should really make better thing in the next model, just for this example.
05-04-2007, 06:57 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Thanks for the insights. Where do you get your informations from? I doubt that under the circumstances that PENTAX are in a position that might be considered too dire. The fact that PENTAX are investing heavily in all of their future "PMA" type shows is indicative of their forward and positive thinking about their future. None the less, that is only your opinion. Thanks for sharing it with all of us, even though it casts a dark paradigm over the mind set of potential Pentax users
Hi Ben, I happen to agree with you. Especially if Hoya acquires Pentax (which look like it might happen) Hoya right now has deep pockets, and most people "in the know" about Japanese business think that it would be a good move for both Hoya and Pentax. The Pentax Board revolt that happened some weeks ago was seen by most experts as a short sighted move by "old school" Pentax board members afraid for their jobs. It is highly unlikely should Hoya acquire Pentax for them to sell off the optical division as it is one of the major bright spots in the whole (relatively small) Pentax divisions. Pentax is doing quite well optically as I'm sure you know. RH's posts to the contrary, the future is fairly bright for Pentax, especially if the merger goes thru.

NaCl(my two cents based on information from some very knowledgeable people not inferred from news articles)H2O
05-04-2007, 06:59 AM   #42
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Between the light (Ben,thanks) and the dark (thanks Ricehigh), Pentax may weather this upheavel.....and my crystal ball (based on nothing ) sees a much stronger Pentax coming out of it. Depends on how corporate ethics has changed in Japan.
SPARX is relying on others (such as Fidelity) to side w/ them. No official lines have been drawn and a fight is inevitable. Pentax recent camera success and the slight downturn of the med division (thanks to Olympus) favors the Pentax point of view.
Will be looking forward to the new cameras.......
addendum: HOYA has publicly stated they will jettoson any part of Pentax that is, in their eyes (which are much more strict than Pentax) is non-performing (this does NOT mean non profitable). Cameras will never live up to this standard, the market and competition is too deep. HOYA, in all the "public statements, news ect" has not changed their opinion. Optics, fine, edoscopes, fine, phone camera and DVD laser lenses, fine. Cameras??????? not so fine.
This unsaid truth is probably part of what the Pentax board rebelled against.. loss of history. I don't blame them one bit. Hoya is good for pentax as an entity, not as a camera company..........

Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-04-2007 at 07:06 AM.
05-04-2007, 07:03 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by NaClH2O Quote
Hi Ben, I happen to agree with you. Especially if Hoya acquires Pentax (which look like it might happen) Hoya right now has deep pockets, and most people "in the know" about Japanese business think that it would be a good move for both Hoya and Pentax. The Pentax Board revolt that happened some weeks ago was seen by most experts as a short sighted move by "old school" Pentax board members afraid for their jobs. It is highly unlikely should Hoya acquire Pentax for them to sell off the optical division as it is one of the major bright spots in the whole (relatively small) Pentax divisions. Pentax is doing quite well optically as I'm sure you know. RH's posts to the contrary, the future is fairly bright for Pentax, especially if the merger goes thru.

NaCl(my two cents based on information from some very knowledgeable people not inferred from news articles)H2O
Maybe I'm just one of the "old school" Pentax fanboys outthere! ;-)

I think the Hoya merger and Pentax is being eaten is a good thing only if Hoya has the insistence to keep camera business running, like the "old school" Pentax board members do. However, Hoya's CEO has said in interviews after the merger that Hoya are mainly interested in Pentax medical optics business and that if the camera division starts to lose, they will consider to sell it off or just stop the business (well, that's what our trustworthy Pentax insider source guy Roland Mabo told us too)

Well, for if Pentax will be profitable or in big loss, who knows? If we bet for Big or Small, what will one put the bets on? :-D
05-04-2007, 07:16 AM   #44
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Pentax will be around for many years to come and I look forward to passing on any Pentax lenses that come my way (as I can afford them) to my children.

As for Ricehigh, well there is lots I would like to say about him but I will bite my tongue and just say Benjikan has put his credentials out there and he has shown us what can be achieved with the current Pentax offerings on the other hand we have Ricehigh who has no professional qualifications in anything related to photography as far as I can see. I trust Benjikan and believe he has put forward an honest account of his meeting with Pentax.

Ricehigh, please just take a camera outside look at the world take a shot of something beautiful and post it on here or anywhere - just one photo.

You have explored the technical side now do yourself a favour and look at the art that the camera lens see.
05-04-2007, 07:26 AM   #45
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just looking at standard business practice happening elsewhere, camera division once acquired can be shut down pretty easily and written off by the large entity if it is not performing (and in case of hoya this might mean 20%+ margin) noone would blink an eye... and that has nothing to do with the future marketplace competition but with internal "new entity" politics. Not to mention that any merger is a HUGE disruption to any business, takeover is better in that sense, but even a takeover is a drag on resources and kills focus in the entities merging.

Just looking at Minolta, while it might have been bleeding money at the time... a few successfull product launches would put them straight back into the game. However after the merger the new entity, lead by Konica, decided they can do without the photo business... which was at least sold, as opposed to terminated, as in case of Contax/Yashica and Koyocera.

If the company is small it has a harder time fighting, but it is also more flexible and can dig out a niche if it doesn't work with mass scale... but once such an entity is inside a bigger one, the "small" is not worth keeping so it is killed as it's not death of the corporate entity merely restructuring, while it is clearly death for the consumers of the product.

If Minolta survived we might have at least had an A3 prosumer, and several new DSLR's by now, which could be right in the fight for market share, they would be forced to innovate even more in order to survive, but this is now Sony with different corporate culture and customer relations etc... good for some bad for others.

In case of Pentax-Hoya I wish all the best to Pentax Imaging if it goes through, but I am afraid that without some quick surge in market share capture and profitability this is doomed from the start as the division will be seen as a drag on other Hoya divisions, and whether Samsung (someone else?) will buy or not is anyones question. In that case at least PK would survive for some more time, but Pentax as we know it now would surely die to be replaced by "me too" consumer DSLR's/cameras... but we shall see won't we :-)...

If there was no merger talk I think it would have been much easier for Pentax to continue on the good path they are currently on, but despite of the uncertainty there is hope. Hope dies last
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