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05-05-2007, 01:18 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Artyste Quote
And you were initially Gore-bashing, no matter how you want to defend it. NEITHER comments really have any business being in a photography forum... so maybe we can just leave it at that? Two wrongs shouldn't make a fight.
No, actually I wasn't. I used a commonly known fact as an example of how easy it is to get people riled up by preaching doom and gloom. I could have used many politicians who use that tactic as an example, but he happened to be the most prominent in mind at the moment. It was a direct response to ricehigh's trying to stir it up instead of the very practical and helpful direction of the OP. Bringing Bush into it and obviously trying to "call me out" was uncalled for, and of course would be responded to.

Back to the topic now?

05-05-2007, 01:18 AM   #77
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Flawed Logic

QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
As much as I'd like to have a positive attitude about all this, it really sounds to me like K10D users will very soon fall from the status of protective older brother to one of neglected middle child. The media's focus will be off the K10D, so Pentax will have little incentive to pay it much attention either. At the same time, unless the K10D occupies the middle position in some unique way, consumers will likewise have little reason to pay it much attention, pretty much assuring this camera's quick demise soon thereafter - even more so given the company's apparent focus on new cameras each year over any clearly stated longterm support for existing cameras or users. Ultimately, unless Pentax plans to have numerous models available, some overlapping others, the planned accelerated introduction of new models sounds like a recipe for a very short market life-cycle for each of those models. How users will fare in all this may not be fully apparent for perhaps another year or two.

stewart
Stewart;

Your logic is a bit flawed. The Canon 20D was not overshadowed by the Canon 1D Mkll. Nor will the Intermediate Pentax by a fully Pro one. I think the K10D occupies a very definitive Niche market that covers a very broad user base of highly competent Expert and Pro Photographers. I can't tell you how many times I chose using my 20D's over my 1Ds Mkll's. It really depends on the applications being implemented. No, I doubt if Pentax will give less air play to the Intermediate market than the upper echelon one. That would be a very short sighted decision, which I doubt they would make.

Ben
05-05-2007, 01:24 AM   #78
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First Warning!

QuoteOriginally posted by Artyste Quote
And you were initially Gore-bashing, no matter how you want to defend it. NEITHER comments really have any business being in a photography forum... so maybe we can just leave it at that? Two wrongs shouldn't make a fight.
If the diatribe regarding the Bush-Gore subject continues, I will have no other choice but to quit photography and open a "Kosher" Delicatessen in downtown Tehran, which I have heard has great business potential...Soooo Watch It Guys..

You HAVE been WARNED!

"Bens Deli"
05-05-2007, 01:27 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
If the diatribe regarding the Bush-Gore subject continues, I will have no other choice but to quit photography and open a "Kosher" Delicatessen in downtown Tehran, which I have heard has great business potential...Soooo Watch It Guys..

You HAVE been WARNED!

"Bens Deli"
Wait.. wait... you're threatening to quit photography?! MORE OFF-TOPIC RANTING!!! Want to give your gear to a poor starving Artyste when you quit?



All in fun.

As for this new camera in the fall.. I still might hold off my purchase of a K10D until I hear what it's all about. Although it wouldn't matter anyway, as it'll be fall before I can *afford* one.

05-05-2007, 01:32 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
If the diatribe regarding the Bush-Gore subject continues, I will have no other choice but to quit photography and open a "Kosher" Delicatessen in downtown Tehran, which I have heard has great business potential...Soooo Watch It Guys..

You HAVE been WARNED!

"Bens Deli"
HAHA.... point taken, and I shouldn't have let myself be baited. All along I was trying to to make the point that the thread was getting off topic, and now I've added to it.

I differ to your Kosher Deli wisdom!
05-05-2007, 01:39 AM   #81
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You Might be Right

QuoteOriginally posted by bravobrown Quote
HAHA.... point taken, and I shouldn't have let myself be baited. All along I was trying to to make the point that the thread was getting off topic, and now I've added to it.

I differ to your Kosher Deli wisdom!
You could be right...What about a "Heating Supply Outlet" in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia...Yeah that's the ticket..Anyone In?
05-05-2007, 01:52 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
You could be right...What about a "Heating Supply Outlet" in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia...Yeah that's the ticket..Anyone In?
I was thinking about going the other way and opening a snow cone stand in Nome, Alaska.
05-05-2007, 02:05 AM   #83
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So Ben...... Any thoughts about how well the two new offerings will interface with the new DA* lenses? You may not be able to comment about that yet, but I'm hoping that both (whether lower or higher end models to the K10D) will be able to take advantage of the faster SDM focusing system.

I'm definitely looking to get at least the 16-50mm for the wedding stuff to start off (low light and faster AF right?). Have you had a chance to test these yet? The samples I've seen look great, and I have high hopes!

Best regards,
Mark

05-05-2007, 02:25 AM   #84
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Stuff...and more Stuff.

QuoteOriginally posted by bravobrown Quote
So Ben...... Any thoughts about how well the two new offerings will interface with the new DA* lenses? You may not be able to comment about that yet, but I'm hoping that both (whether lower or higher end models to the K10D) will be able to take advantage of the faster SDM focusing system.

I'm definitely looking to get at least the 16-50mm for the wedding stuff to start off (low light and faster AF right?). Have you had a chance to test these yet? The samples I've seen look great, and I have high hopes!

Best regards,
Mark
Hi Mark;

As the meeting I had with PENTAX was a "working meeting" and dealt primarily with the choreographing of the "Salon de la Photo" show in October the issues you mentioned above were not as relevant as the issue at hand. However the answer to your first query is yes. As to testing the 16-50 and 50-135 they were there but I didn't want to divert from the the subject at hand and didn't play with them. I did play around with the 43 and 10-17 as they were on the desk of Mr.Belmadi the Director for Commercial Relations. I said.."Hey..How come I don't have these?" and he said "'Cause you didn't ask!" He did give me the remote control which I do need when shooting still life stuff as I use very slow shutter speeds and my just pressing the shutter on the tripod moves the camera...

None the less, If you come in October i'll let you play with some of the new toys...Just don't bring any candy floss...very sticky.
05-05-2007, 06:20 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Your logic is a bit flawed. The Canon 20D was not overshadowed by the Canon 1D Mkll.
There is a $2500 difference between those two cameras. Regardless, I hope you're right, Ben. I certainly don't want to throw too much of a wet blanket on all this. After all, I don't have all the details. But, for myself, I'll just wait to see what actually unfolds over the next several months. After all, without more info, that's really all I can do.

stewart
05-05-2007, 09:01 AM   #86
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This is getting silly!

I used a couple of MX bodes for 35mm work for many years, since they did the job intended. I still have my old Mamaiya RB67 Pro-S, a very old camera. I know people who have been using them in their studios for twenty years. If it works it works.

By the time you get to the K10D, you have the features and pixels to do any commercial job that could reasonable be expected.

Here's an example of rampant pixellitis in the industry:

My old childhood friend, John Manno, has a studio one block off Madison Avenue. He was using the Kodak DCS-14 back for the agencies, and they were happy. He paid a lot of money for it.

A year and a half later, they demanded the Leaf 22 megapixel back. The DCS-14 was just not good enough.

Not good enough to print on glossy stock on an offset press through maybe a 200 line screen? C'mon, who are they kidding?

It seems that the agencies have been hoist on their own petard. They are so intent on selling consumers More Pixels, they sort of swallowed their own propaganda.

Pixellitis is a disease that effects people who value equipment more than the end result. Think about it: how much more resolution will you get from 12 megapixels than from 10? You have to quadruple the number of pixels to double the resolution. The difference between 10 and 12? Don't even bother to mention it!
05-05-2007, 07:33 PM   #87
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Hear hear, well said....

QuoteOriginally posted by Dana G Quote
This is getting silly!

I used a couple of MX bodes for 35mm work for many years, since they did the job intended. I still have my old Mamaiya RB67 Pro-S, a very old camera. I know people who have been using them in their studios for twenty years. If it works it works.

By the time you get to the K10D, you have the features and pixels to do any commercial job that could reasonable be expected.

Here's an example of rampant pixellitis in the industry:

My old childhood friend, John Manno, has a studio one block off Madison Avenue. He was using the Kodak DCS-14 back for the agencies, and they were happy. He paid a lot of money for it.

A year and a half later, they demanded the Leaf 22 megapixel back. The DCS-14 was just not good enough.

Not good enough to print on glossy stock on an offset press through maybe a 200 line screen? C'mon, who are they kidding?

It seems that the agencies have been hoist on their own petard. They are so intent on selling consumers More Pixels, they sort of swallowed their own propaganda.

Pixellitis is a disease that effects people who value equipment more than the end result. Think about it: how much more resolution will you get from 12 megapixels than from 10? You have to quadruple the number of pixels to double the resolution. The difference between 10 and 12? Don't even bother to mention it!
I have a bunch of pics taken on days out with my friends. Their equipment ranges from humble stuff such as Nikon D70's to the top of the range 1Ds and the most obvious difference between all of them is the person taking the darned picture.

With a decent lens and a steady hand its really quite hard to see much difference between the detail in an A4 print. In an A3 print you can JUST tell that the 10MP are inching away from the 6MP (sometimes) and the 1Ds has an edge over the 10MP (but not always) but its impossible to see much difference between 10 and 12 (yes even a 5D).

Only when you get really big or crop quite a lot (we are talking big now, close to a metre wide) does the IDs really start to show the others up and even then, from six feet away you cant always tell unless the subject lends itself to such comparisons.

People get all anxious about this nonsense but unless you regularly want to print poster size pics for a gallery of very detailed subjects (scenery particularly) do you see any appreciable difference and even then it makes no difference to the artisitic qualities of the result. A large print of a well conceived 6MP print can still look stunningly good and technique in both shooting and photoshop can make up a lot of ground....

Before anyone jumps on me, yes you CAN see a difference if you take a loupe to the print, but even a hint of camera shake renders such comparisons superfluous. Hence my point about the photographer being the key factor and the quality of the end result being pretty much independent of resolution.

And besides, resolution is a function of lens + sensor. An average lens on a 12MP sensor wont necessarily give you better results than a stellar lens on a 6MP sensor.

If you really want a visible difference and your line of work requires prints over 1m wide, then you really have to get into MF territory. A 24MP back will look appreciably better on such a large format. But how many of us EVER print that big?
05-06-2007, 03:40 AM   #88
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So True

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
I have a bunch of pics taken on days out with my friends. Their equipment ranges from humble stuff such as Nikon D70's to the top of the range 1Ds and the most obvious difference between all of them is the person taking the darned picture.

With a decent lens and a steady hand its really quite hard to see much difference between the detail in an A4 print. In an A3 print you can JUST tell that the 10MP are inching away from the 6MP (sometimes) and the 1Ds has an edge over the 10MP (but not always) but its impossible to see much difference between 10 and 12 (yes even a 5D).

Only when you get really big or crop quite a lot (we are talking big now, close to a metre wide) does the IDs really start to show the others up and even then, from six feet away you cant always tell unless the subject lends itself to such comparisons.

People get all anxious about this nonsense but unless you regularly want to print poster size pics for a gallery of very detailed subjects (scenery particularly) do you see any appreciable difference and even then it makes no difference to the artisitic qualities of the result. A large print of a well conceived 6MP print can still look stunningly good and technique in both shooting and photoshop can make up a lot of ground....

Before anyone jumps on me, yes you CAN see a difference if you take a loupe to the print, but even a hint of camera shake renders such comparisons superfluous. Hence my point about the photographer being the key factor and the quality of the end result being pretty much independent of resolution.

And besides, resolution is a function of lens + sensor. An average lens on a 12MP sensor wont necessarily give you better results than a stellar lens on a 6MP sensor.

If you really want a visible difference and your line of work requires prints over 1m wide, then you really have to get into MF territory. A 24MP back will look appreciably better on such a large format. But how many of us EVER print that big?
This is sooo True. Here is a 6.3 Mega Pixel Image from a Canon 10D on a 3.5 x 5.0 Meter Poster or for you still not using metric, about 12 x 18 feet...

Ben

Last edited by benjikan; 02-07-2013 at 06:03 PM.
05-06-2007, 08:28 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
This is sooo True. Here is a 6.3 Mega Pixel Image from a Canon 10D on a 3.5 x 5.0 Meter Poster or for you still not using metric, about 12 x 18 feet...

Ben
Clever image, Ben. You do good work!
05-06-2007, 08:55 AM   #90
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Ben, can you let us know if there is any exciting news w/ regards to the new sensors these new cameras are going to use? I'm much more interested in greater dynamic range and higher sensitivity with less noise. From what I have read, Pentax doesn't make their own sensors.

John
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