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07-23-2009, 05:10 AM   #61
RaduA
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Well, the answer to your demands is ... drum rolls ... K-7! The only thing you have to do is to buy the grip and you're all set. I don't think in some time the mid range Pentax camera will have all the features you ask for.

About the AAA batteries I think it's really a bad idea for a lot of reasons:
  • People insists on AA mainly because they have some already and they are well available in remote locations (plain batteries not accus). AAA may be readily available in most locations but the battery kind are a lot weaker than AAs
  • 6 units in an entry or mid range camera is a less appealing proposition than 4 mostly because chargers with more than 4 slots are expensive and rapid chargers with more than 4 slots are VERY expensive. In the end you'll end up paying a lot more for the power pack than just buying a second Li Ion battery beside the one that comes free with the camera (and with a free rapid charger). Or you will wait for a lot of time to charge those 6 units in a 2 or 4 slot charger. Not my cup of tea!
  • 6 units in a higher end camera makes a lot more sense IMO because many advanced users already have an investment in multiple packs of quality AA batteries and good chargers for flash units usage. So for me for example all the required investment will be 3 more 4 unit packs of Eneloops for 2x6 grip usage.
  • Your example of 6 AAA accus means the power pack will have 6x1.2Vx1000mAh = 7.2 Wh of energy. The new D-li 90 has 7.2 V x 1860 mAh = 13.4 Wh of energy. A huge difference and you can charge that in 3 hours tops. Plus even if you're stuck in the middle of nowhere and buy regular AAA batteries those can't resist too much since they are way less powerful than AA.

So, will you buy a K-7 the next weekend?

Regards,
Radu

QuoteOriginally posted by Andreas Quote
I will buy the next Pentax camera that has AA's and AF adjustment, I don't care what sensor they put in it (assuming it's decent!), 8-12 MP would be excellent.

If, in addition, it has Pentaprism + a level indicator, I'll buy it next weekend, no matter what the wife says.

It could very well be that video and AA's are incompatible, but read about the new Ni-Zn batteries like the Quantaray Super Z. Shelf life is at least comparable to Eneloop-type batteries, and they deliver higher voltage.

If that's not feasible, wouldn't it be a good idea to use AAA's instead of AA's ? Take 6 of them (instead of 4 AA's) and they deliver a higher voltage. Capacity will suffer, but 6x1000 mAh is not THAT much less than 4x2000 mAh. And give it a few years time... .

(Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not good in electricity.)


07-23-2009, 05:24 AM   #62
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If it Oinks it's a Pig! ;)

K-M / K2000 Ick!.

- No weather sealing.
- Only 5 point focus system. (K200D, 11 points)
- No choice of AF point.
- No focus marker indicator in the viewfinder.
- No top LCD.
- Designed to be a cheap filler product for a world economy in recession.

The second I heard the bad news as to what the K2000 was I instantly went out and bought up one of the last K200D's in the area.

QuoteOriginally posted by flippedgazelle Quote
Aw, c'mon, don't knock the lovely K-m! Otherwise I'd have to point out what a slow kludge the K200D is, in comparison!
07-23-2009, 05:34 AM   #63
RaduA
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No offense but you don't have any technical or marketing based arguments for most of the bellow. First of all even the K-m is more than decently build and that was not a problem with Pentax dslrs in the recent past. Nevertheless a lot of people tend to favor lightness a lot so it's a subjective matter. My guess is that Hoya will cut weight from all models and as much as possible without compromising quality. Secondly K200D already had weather resistance, the best OVF of its class, top LCD, decent in body SR and AA batteries and sold 4-5 times worse than a less spec'd D60 (with the same sensor!) and probably 10 times worse than the 450D. Of course brands matters and availability worldwide and in most stores matters a lot but I bet if Pentax had the 450D under their name as a blueprint (LV, smaller, lighter, rounder) PLUS the Pentax specific qualities (in body SR, w.r., better OVF, etc) they would of sold lots more than K200Ds. The whole idea is that the average buyer for such a camera wants something for every cent he/she spends and focusing on "advanced photo features" will do more harm than good. How many such buyers will ever put the camera outside green mode or scenes do you think? What can they do with dual wheels control, why bother with a top LCD instead of a colorful menu on the back LCD? Where is their beloved LV, why this camera can't do movies of their kids?
Thirdly, improved DR and fps cannot come at non negligible levels using the same sensor. It is insane to think that Pentax will commission a new sensor that will outdo the current 14.6 Mp on IQ terms and put it in a camera aimed at beginners and soccer mums.

Regards,
Radu

QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
I would like to see something continuing the idea of the K200D - a very affordable DSLR thatīs built around ease of use & taking great still photos rather than gimmicks that appeal to people who will buy a DSLR & leave it on auto for all eternity. Put the R&D money into the correct things. Therefore:

Yes:

good built quality, weather resistance, faster AF, good VF (although PM rather than PP, it is a budget model), AAs, top LCD (essential), improved SR, improved DR increase function, faster FPS, perhaps a second control wheel or more direct buttons

No:

Live view, articulated screen, more than 12MP, video
07-23-2009, 05:45 AM   #64
RaduA
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You basically say that when offered with 2 choices you go with K200D as the best suited for your needs and in the same time you want to deny this possibility to others that may chose differently than you.

2 cameras, 2 markets, 2 possible choices based on price/needs/knowledge.

Besides I don't think you understand that well how big is the potential market in the emerging economies and how important is the lowest price there.

Regards,
Radu

QuoteOriginally posted by vk4akp Quote
K-M / K2000 Ick!.

- No weather sealing.
- Only 5 point focus system. (K200D, 11 points)
- No choice of AF point.
- No focus marker indicator in the viewfinder.
- No top LCD.
- Designed to be a cheap filler product for a world economy in recession.

The second I heard the bad news as to what the K2000 was I instantly went out and bought up one of the last K200D's in the area.


07-23-2009, 06:18 AM   #65
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Well interesting.

But by your Math you have just proven it's a viable thing to go with AA's!

For starters most AA NiMh technology is usually at the very least 2Ah not 1Ah as in the example you used with AAA's.

So

4x 1.2V x 2.1Ah = 10.08Wh (What I currently use in the K200D)
4x 1.2V x 2.8Ah = 13.44Wh (2800mAh's easy meet your D-Li 90 @ 13.4Wh!)
6x 1.2V x 2.8Ah = 20.16Wh (You've just squashed your D-Li 90 @ 13.4Wh!)
6x 1.2V x 2Ah = 14.4Wh

Hell they even have 2900mAh NiMh AA's now!

4x 1.2V x 2.9Ah = 13.92Wh (2900mAh AA's)
Mega Goodbye D-Li90 crap (@ 13.4Wh) with only 4x AA's!

I got my 10x AA charger with discharge and -Neg Delta V cut out for only $50.
Very reasonable!. So the charger is not an issue.

4x Varta AA rechargables from Woolies will set you back $20 or $15 on special, last up to 1000 cycles, or ten years.

16x 2800mAh AA's from eBay aprox $58 incl post!

What will just one of your expensive D-Li 90 batteries cost you that also only has a 2 year half shelf life?

Camera Warehouse - D-Li90 - AU$159.oo !! OMG!

Lithium technology is just a big money spinner.

And no I won't be rushing for a K-7 any time soon.

I'll wait and see what the K300D is like and then make some decisions.

.-.-.


QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Well, the answer to your demands is ... drum rolls ... K-7! The only thing you have to do is to buy the grip and you're all set. I don't think in some time the mid range Pentax camera will have all the features you ask for.

About the AAA batteries I think it's really a bad idea for a lot of reasons:
  • People insists on AA mainly because they have some already and they are well available in remote locations (plain batteries not accus). AAA may be readily available in most locations but the battery kind are a lot weaker than AAs
  • 6 units in an entry or mid range camera is a less appealing proposition than 4 mostly because chargers with more than 4 slots are expensive and rapid chargers with more than 4 slots are VERY expensive. In the end you'll end up paying a lot more for the power pack than just buying a second Li Ion battery beside the one that comes free with the camera (and with a free rapid charger). Or you will wait for a lot of time to charge those 6 units in a 2 or 4 slot charger. Not my cup of tea!
  • 6 units in a higher end camera makes a lot more sense IMO because many advanced users already have an investment in multiple packs of quality AA batteries and good chargers for flash units usage. So for me for example all the required investment will be 3 more 4 unit packs of Eneloops for 2x6 grip usage.
  • Your example of 6 AAA accus means the power pack will have 6x1.2Vx1000mAh = 7.2 Wh of energy. The new D-li 90 has 7.2 V x 1860 mAh = 13.4 Wh of energy. A huge difference and you can charge that in 3 hours tops. Plus even if you're stuck in the middle of nowhere and buy regular AAA batteries those can't resist too much since they are way less powerful than AA.

So, will you buy a K-7 the next weekend?

Regards,
Radu
07-23-2009, 06:38 AM   #66
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K-M designed to sell more X70's !! ;)

Haha That's so funny!

I've seen exactly the sort of market the K-M draws.

After seeing my K200D a number of friends have asked me to come camera shopping with them.

They pick up a K-M in the store get very perplexed by the total lack of Live View, zoom it across the mall with the 18-55 kit lens, fire off a few continious shots.

After some discussion as to the need for multiple lens's and costs involved etc, they pick up a Pentax X70 take a few shot's look much happier and walk out with the X70!

So basically the K-M tends to appeal to those who deep down don't really want a DSLR at all.

And I bet the sales figures tend to reflect this also.

.-.-.



QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
You basically say that when offered with 2 choices you go with K200D as the best suited for your needs and in the same time you want to deny this possibility to others that may chose differently than you.

2 cameras, 2 markets, 2 possible choices based on price/needs/knowledge.

Besides I don't think you understand that well how big is the potential market in the emerging economies and how important is the lowest price there.

Regards,
Radu
07-23-2009, 07:49 AM   #67
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Radu,

the K7 is an option indeed, but not this weekend! The battery pack adds about 300 EUR to the price. That makes it about 1500 EUR for body+battery pack, while I would be happy (if it had AF adjustment, just a debug menu would do!) with a K200D that costs less than 500 EUR.

(Add the costs of the divorce to this 1500 EUR and you'll understand!)

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Well, the answer to your demands is ... drum rolls ... K-7! The only thing you have to do is to buy the grip and you're all set.
So, will you buy a K-7 the next weekend?

Regards,
Radu
07-23-2009, 08:07 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andreas Quote
the K7 is an option indeed, but not this weekend! The battery pack adds about 300 EUR to the price. That makes it about 1500 EUR for body+battery pack, while I would be happy (if it had AF adjustment, just a debug menu would do!) with a K200D that costs less than 500 EUR.
Isn't it 200 Eur? If 300, I'll wait, indeed, although I'd still like to own it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Andreas Quote
(Add the costs of the divorce to this 1500 EUR and you'll understand!)
Ouch


Where are you located, Andreas? Did you already had the opportunity to try the K-7 ?

07-23-2009, 08:08 AM   #69
RaduA
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andreas Quote
Radu,

the K7 is an option indeed, but not this weekend! The battery pack adds about 300 EUR to the price. That makes it about 1500 EUR for body+battery pack, while I would be happy (if it had AF adjustment, just a debug menu would do!) with a K200D that costs less than 500 EUR.

(Add the costs of the divorce to this 1500 EUR and you'll understand!)
I imagine she will get the camera and you'll get the grip at a divorce!

Regards,
Radu
07-23-2009, 09:01 AM   #70
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Pentax Imaging (Pentax USA) is still selling the K200d so its not officially discontinued here until they pull it from the web site. Furthermore, the K-7 isn't a K200d replacement. The argument could be made that the K-7 is the K20d replacement but Pentax has officially denied that. I suspect that there is a possibility that the K20d will be the K200d replacement by default at some point. However, the physically size of the k20d next to the k200d makes that seem unlikely and the K-m just isn't what it out to be.
07-23-2009, 09:08 AM   #71
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I did a quick Google search on the grip and I saw a UK price of 255 GBP, therefore I made up this 300 EUR. But I just saw it for about 250 EUR at FotoKonijnenberg (one of the cheapest online stores I know), so it will be less indeed. Reassuring!

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Isn't it 200 Eur? If 300, I'll wait, indeed, although I'd still like to own it.
I'm located in Rijmenam (somewhere near Mechelen). I did not try the K-7 yet, but I'm sure it's an excellent body.

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Where are you located, Andreas? Did you already had the opportunity to try the K-7 ?
07-23-2009, 09:44 AM   #72
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Damn, how i hate those times, when you have written a detailed post and after hitting backspace, it initiates BACK action in browser instead of text editing.
So the short version:

QuoteOriginally posted by vk4akp Quote
...
4x 1.2V x 2.1Ah = 10.08Wh (What I currently use in the K200D)
4x 1.2V x 2.8Ah = 13.44Wh (2800mAh's easy meet your D-Li 90 @ 13.4Wh!)
6x 1.2V x 2.8Ah = 20.16Wh (You've just squashed your D-Li 90 @ 13.4Wh!)
6x 1.2V x 2Ah = 14.4Wh
...
It is not so straightforward.
AA NiMH's cant deliver their full charge at high current.
This is because of internal resistance, which increases noticeably long before the battery is discharged.
It can supply enough current for flashlight, remote or simple device.
DSLR "grabs" bursts of high current for processing, AF, SD writes, FLASH etc.
It is more pronounced for high capacity ones (>~2.5Ah).

LiIon's and LiPo's however, as well as professional NiMH's (like those you can find in drill battery packs, and cost like 15$ per 1.2V/3Ah cell) can deliver much larger currents, can be charged with much faster rate, and is capable to do so until almost fully discharged.

This is what is important for DSLR, not high capacity or voltage, but high usable capacity which can be fully delivered to the target at any moment.
Sometimes it seems so silly, that someone says k20d has faster AF because of higher voltage.

A real compromise would be design that allowed for both, proprietary RECHARGEABLE Li Ion and AA's.
07-23-2009, 10:57 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by vk4akp Quote
K-M / K2000 Ick!.

- No weather sealing.
- Only 5 point focus system. (K200D, 11 points)
- No choice of AF point.
- No focus marker indicator in the viewfinder.
- No top LCD.
- Designed to be a cheap filler product for a world economy in recession.

The second I heard the bad news as to what the K2000 was I instantly went out and bought up one of the last K200D's in the area.
I have a K200D and a K2000, and the latter camera is a pretty decent little machine. It's much quicker in operation than the K200D, especially the AF which is fast and reliable. The speed is also very noticeable when using auto-bracketing. It's also quite small, and makes a great match with a DA Limited prime. I carry it with a DA21 on it as my point-and-shoot.
07-23-2009, 02:41 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by vk4akp Quote
K-M / K2000 Ick!.

- No weather sealing.
- Only 5 point focus system. (K200D, 11 points)
- No choice of AF point.
- No focus marker indicator in the viewfinder.
- No top LCD.
- Designed to be a cheap filler product for a world economy in recession.

The second I heard the bad news as to what the K2000 was I instantly went out and bought up one of the last K200D's in the area.

K-m/K2000 is:

- Smaller/lighter
- Faster AF
- Faster thru the menu system
- Improved electronics, slighty reducing noise at higher ISO
- Designed to appeal to more active people who want less encumbrance and are more interested in taking photos than counting AF points.

The second I heard the good news as to what the K2000 was I instantly went out and took some photos with my K100D.

QuoteOriginally posted by vk4akp Quote
So basically the K-M tends to appeal to those who deep down don't really want a DSLR at all.
I'm sorry, but that is really a ridiculous statement. The K2000 is not my 1st DSLR. Just because something is different than what you like does not mean it is inferior.

Last edited by flippedgazelle; 07-24-2009 at 07:06 AM.
07-24-2009, 05:08 AM   #75
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So the way to sell a K200D replacement is to replace the "Pentax" name with Nikon or Canon??? I think Nikon & Canon would be less than happy about that.

I included many of the best features of the K200D in my list, to emphasise that these need to be kept. These are the main features that differentiate the K200D from the Canon, Nikon, Sony equivalents.

Yes, many people favour lightness over a sturdy build, fair enough. for them there is the K-m, or a high-end compact or other brands. Weīre talking about a K200D replacement, hence continuity in the build quality.

I donīt think Pentax, or any other camera manufacturer, could get away with either using a 14MP top-of-the-range sensor from a $1500 camera into a new $700 camera or continuing to use an increasingly outdated 10MP sensor in a new camera. If the camera starts to fall behind the pack due to lower DR & FPS then surely this needs to be looked at with a newer sensor? Why would it have to out-do the K7 sensor?

The K200D stands out among other brandsī sub-$700 cameras as arguably the only one thatīs not aimed at, or limited to, "beginners & soccer moms". Itīs aimed at providing a good, solidly-performing camera that can stand a little abuse for those that donīt have the money to spend on a K20D, K7 or D3x. Surely a replacement for the K200D would continue this? If it didnīt it wouldnīt be a replacement for the K200D, it would just be another camera in the line-up. This is the reason that many people see the K-m / K2000 not as a replacement for the K200D but as a camera that stands on itīs own, with itīs own faults & benefits.

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
No offense but you don't have any technical or marketing based arguments for most of the bellow. First of all even the K-m is more than decently build and that was not a problem with Pentax dslrs in the recent past. Nevertheless a lot of people tend to favor lightness a lot so it's a subjective matter. My guess is that Hoya will cut weight from all models and as much as possible without compromising quality. Secondly K200D already had weather resistance, the best OVF of its class, top LCD, decent in body SR and AA batteries and sold 4-5 times worse than a less spec'd D60 (with the same sensor!) and probably 10 times worse than the 450D. Of course brands matters and availability worldwide and in most stores matters a lot but I bet if Pentax had the 450D under their name as a blueprint (LV, smaller, lighter, rounder) PLUS the Pentax specific qualities (in body SR, w.r., better OVF, etc) they would of sold lots more than K200Ds. The whole idea is that the average buyer for such a camera wants something for every cent he/she spends and focusing on "advanced photo features" will do more harm than good. How many such buyers will ever put the camera outside green mode or scenes do you think? What can they do with dual wheels control, why bother with a top LCD instead of a colorful menu on the back LCD? Where is their beloved LV, why this camera can't do movies of their kids?
Thirdly, improved DR and fps cannot come at non negligible levels using the same sensor. It is insane to think that Pentax will commission a new sensor that will outdo the current 14.6 Mp on IQ terms and put it in a camera aimed at beginners and soccer mums.

Regards,
Radu
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