K20D discontinued

lurchlarson · 08-05-2009, 04:08 PM

Well if the K20d is "discontinued" then that just means a new one is coming! After all the they said that the K7 wasn't a replacement for the K20d. Therefore IF the K20d is to be replaced it should hopefully happen soon as well as a replacement for the k200d

**rparmar** · 08-05-2009, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by lurchlarson

After all the they said that the K7 wasn't a replacement for the K20d.

They lied in order to stress the K-7 as a "new concept". Therefore they did not wish to tie this camera into the K20D. But in fact it is obviously an (attempt at an) improved k20D in every way that matters.

sebberry · 08-05-2009, 08:45 PM

I would like to see a K30D based on the K20D body. I haven't held the K-7 yet but I suspect it will be a bit small for my hands. (Plus the K20D body retains the nice lift and turn latches for the battery and SD covers.)

I'm not sure how much I'd use video or live view so I really don't need to spend $1600 on the K-7. I got my K10D for ~$800, the K20D goes for around $1100 (Body only) so something around the $900 mark would be fine by me.

**rparmar** · 08-06-2009, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by sebberry

I haven't held the K-7 yet but I suspect it will be a bit small for my hands. (Plus the K20D body retains the nice lift and turn latches for the battery and SD covers.)

The K-7 does have the same battery latch, though you're correct about the SD card slot changing.

Very few (though some) have had a problem with the smaller body due to hand size. If you can, try it yourself. Then you can buy it in a year when the prices drop. My problem with the ergonomics comes down to button placement. I will wait and skip a generation. I feel no need to rush out and buy every new body that comes along.

Originally posted by sebberry

I would like to see a K30D based on the K20D body.

I don't think this will happen. It seems evident that Pentax have production facilities for no more than three bodies at a time.

Kunzite · 08-06-2009, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by rparmar

They lied in order to stress the K-7 as a "new concept".

Lied? Isn't that too harsh? On the contrary, I think the K-7 can be regarded as a new concept (which doesn't necessarily means a new kind of camera, e.g. an EVIL camera instead of a SLR). They came closer to the concept of an APS-C pro model; they also targeted speed, small size, style (you might like it or not, though). They made room for a mid-level camera (which I think is coming).

The most dangerous thing for the K-7 IMO is to be seen as "just a K20D with few updates". It's much more than that, and I won't blame Pentax for trying to emphasize this. And "new concept" is exactly this.
My 2 (euro)cents.

P.S. "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" (Ben Kenobi).

**Rondec** · 08-06-2009, 07:06 AM

It is a new concept, the question is whether or not it works for you. Smaller size with more features is something that may not be new for Pentax, but it certainly is new for other companies. Normally, the higher end the camera, the bigger the body to accomodate the new features. Magnesium alloy body, in particular, is not present in any similarly priced body.

It does seem like a lot of the negativity toward the K7 comes from people who haven't really used it, but have perceptions about its ergonomics, image quality, high iso capability, etc based on online postings. It seems that it doesn't take much information to form a strong opinion on any subject, particularly cameras.

stanleyk · 08-06-2009, 07:24 AM

Blue-

In total agreement on the UF thing. I have no particular love for Mr. Saban either.

I do think Ark made a great hire with Petrino.

**rparmar** · 08-06-2009, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

It is a new concept, the question is whether or not it works for you.

Originally posted by Kunzite

Lied? Isn't that too harsh? On the contrary, I think the K-7 can be regarded as a new concept.

Maybe harsh, but to the point.

K-7 has no features other cameras don't already have. No doubt the total package makes it a desirable camera to some, for which I am happy enough. But there is no "new concept" here, just the same old concept every other manufacturer employs... cram in as many features as possible, whether useful or not. There is nothing wrong with this maximalist approach, but it is not the only way.

The K-7 breaks no new ground in size or weight, not even among Pentax DSLRs. As for magnesium body, I'd prefer that omitted, weather-sealing shed and perhaps even top LCD gone to make unit significantly smaller again... like a superior K-m. That plus a reduced feature set and redesigned interface might indeed be the Limited camera I want... the camera that has that "soul" Pentax marketing goes on about.

Right now the K-7 is playing catch-up with other brands and rather falls between two stools conceptually.

To be crystal clear: the K-7 is likely the best SLR Pentax has made. But it is not the camera we were promised.

P.S. Nothing improves without criticism. Would we have seen the firmware "fix" for the AF buttons without people like me daring to criticize "the new way"?

brecklundin · 08-06-2009, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Blue

He has made this comment in several threads now.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/679264-post188.html

he who? Try and be concise in your comments when refering to others...that is WHY there is the quote option.

brecklundin · 08-06-2009, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

It is a new concept, the question is whether or not it works for you. Smaller size with more features is something that may not be new for Pentax, but it certainly is new for other companies. Normally, the higher end the camera, the bigger the body to accomodate the new features. Magnesium alloy body, in particular, is not present in any similarly priced body.

It does seem like a lot of the negativity toward the K7 comes from people who haven't really used it, but have perceptions about its ergonomics, image quality, high iso capability, etc based on online postings. It seems that it doesn't take much information to form a strong opinion on any subject, particularly cameras.

I don't think one should group any questioning of QC or known hardware faults as uninformed opinions. The known and acknowledged hardware flaw wrt overheating which leads to green line syndrome (GLS) is alone, enough to be wary of the K7 for now. I know I will not be willing to go through multiple bodies to find one that might not quite reach the critical point within the body to show the lines. Just because the line does not show now does not imply the problem is still not there waiting for component fatigue due to near-overheating, undervolting/overvolting/whatever...

That is the only reason I see it as not a body I would recommend anyone buy if it is the only body they will own, and even then, until a true identification of the issue as well as a fix is announced by HoyaTax.

And no I do not own a K7...and am glad I changed my mind at the last minute. And that is in spite of how much I want and need the changes to the K7 over the K20D. For a client, I would never spec any hardware with anything with unresolved hardware related issues. Why would I do the same for myself?

**Rondec** · 08-06-2009, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by brecklundin

I don't think one should group any questioning of QC or known hardware faults as uninformed opinions. The known and acknowledged hardware flaw wrt overheating which leads to green line syndrome (GLS) is alone, enough to be wary of the K7 for now. I know I will not be willing to go through multiple bodies to find one that might not quite reach the critical point within the body to show the lines. Just because the line does not show now does not imply the problem is still not there waiting for component fatigue due to near-overheating, undervolting/overvolting/whatever...

That is the only reason I see it as not a body I would recommend anyone buy if it is the only body they will own, and even then, until a true identification of the issue as well as a fix is announced by HoyaTax.

And no I do not own a K7...and am glad I changed my mind at the last minute. And that is in spite of how much I want and need the changes to the K7 over the K20D. For a client, I would never spec any hardware with anything with unresolved hardware related issues. Why would I do the same for myself?

I actually agree with you, Pentax has a responsibility to turn out a good product that is reliable in both short and long term. The hard thing about a forum like this is that it tends to make problem cameras seem like the rule rather than the exception. In reality, it is hard to say if "problem" cameras are outliers, or if they are common. Not knowing this, I have a hard time slamming Pentax too hard. Also, since Pentax is giving a three year warranty with the cameras at this time and in my experience has been quick to fix problems, if problems would develop, I have confidence that they would be taken care of.

Kunzite · 08-06-2009, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by rparmar

Maybe harsh, but to the point.

Well, English is not my first language - so I might be confused regarding the precise meaning of some words

But, I don't see a problem with the K-7 not offering something truly new, while still being a "new concept". As a camera, it's different enough. The K20D was not 'fast', was not 'compact', was not truly 'high-end'. And it's biggest fault - the K20D was not differentiated enough from the K10D. I understand perfectly why they don't want to make the same mistake.

And, what did they promised? Why are you angry? IMO, with the K-7 they solved many complains I've saw on misc. forums. They listened to us. They gave us more speed, they improved the AF also for tungsten light, included an AF-assist lamp and so on.

P.S. Constructive criticism is good. I also complained (not here, iirc) about things like the AF select buttons, ISO button location, rubber covers and few other things like that. I still think, like you, it's likely the best Pentax DSLR; I might buy it if I didn't had a very nice K20D.
But, please... calling them liars is not constructive criticism.

MrApollinax · 08-06-2009, 10:25 AM

In my little corner of the Engineering world it is pretty simple to define if there is a problem that is a one-off or if it is a systemic issue:

Step 1: Can you reproduce the problem? If so how do you do it?
Step 2: Does the problem occurr 100% of the time during testing cases
Step 3: Is your sample the only one exhibiting this issue?

On top of all that there is the manufacturers warranty which should address all issues after the fact as well. Look at MS and the 360 consoles. They found that there is a specific problem that may happen to some (not all) units and enacted a policy to retroactively cover those units with an automatically extended 3-year warranty.

brecklundin · 08-06-2009, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I actually agree with you, Pentax has a responsibility to turn out a good product that is reliable in both short and long term. The hard thing about a forum like this is that it tends to make problem cameras seem like the rule rather than the exception. In reality, it is hard to say if "problem" cameras are outliers, or if they are common. Not knowing this, I have a hard time slamming Pentax too hard. Also, since Pentax is giving a three year warranty with the cameras at this time and in my experience has been quick to fix problems, if problems would develop, I have confidence that they would be taken care of.

An emphatic YES...I agree also that Pentax will find a solution. Not only because, well, they have to if they want to continue to exist. But I might not commit to the opinion this is not a more widespread issue than we see reported here or elsewhere. I say that because a lot of people might never read the boards or post to them and simply return the body...or worse yet, do not pay close enough attention to even be aware of the issue.

As for Pentax, I almost wonder if they already know the fix but now need to get the bean counters to sign off on the proposed solution. Remember, now they are dealing with the Hoya bean counters not the Pentax bean counters...and my worst concern is that they were aware of the issue prior to release but the bean counters simply decided it was more cost effective to sell already produced bodies and deal with the fallout when the time comes. I know I am often too cynical. but, hey, just because I am paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me!!

brecklundin · 08-06-2009, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by MrApollinax

In my little corner of the Engineering world it is pretty simple to define if there is a problem that is a one-off or if it is a systemic issue:

Step 1: Can you reproduce the problem? If so how do you do it?
Step 2: Does the problem occurr 100% of the time during testing cases
Step 3: Is your sample the only one exhibiting this issue?

On top of all that there is the manufacturers warranty which should address all issues after the fact as well. Look at MS and the 360 consoles. They found that there is a specific problem that may happen to some (not all) units and enacted a policy to retroactively cover those units with an automatically extended 3-year warranty.

My only problem with that is, I expect a body I buy to last a decade or more...if my device or how I use it always keeps it on the fringe of triggering the behavior, I will be unhappy when my camera body dies in 5-yrs...as for the Xbox, different sort of hardware...3-yrs is an eternity in terms of how long most owners keep them before upgrading to the newest and "bestest" model...I bet most upgrade within months of every new released model. Camera owners are not the same animal keeping the same body and lenses for decades not a few years. If it toward the upgrade-treadmill, it will be a sad day for the hobby...

I also have a similar concern for the lifespan of the seals in the bodies and lenses. How to we make them last and also how long should they last? If you go by the warranty, then that is how long and anything else is a bonus. Not much reassurance for the premium being charged for sealed lenses which now lack an aperture ring as well. So many changes, but that sure keeps it interesting I suppose.

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08-05-2009, 04:08 PM	#61
lurchlarson Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oregon, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 681	Well if the K20d is "discontinued" then that just means a new one is coming! After all the they said that the K7 wasn't a replacement for the K20d. Therefore IF the K20d is to be replaced it should hopefully happen soon as well as a replacement for the k200d

08-05-2009, 05:49 PM	#62
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	Originally posted by lurchlarson After all the they said that the K7 wasn't a replacement for the K20d. They lied in order to stress the K-7 as a "new concept". Therefore they did not wish to tie this camera into the K20D. But in fact it is obviously an (attempt at an) improved k20D in every way that matters.

08-05-2009, 08:45 PM	#63
sebberry Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Frozen white North Photos: Albums Posts: 1,135	I would like to see a K30D based on the K20D body. I haven't held the K-7 yet but I suspect it will be a bit small for my hands. (Plus the K20D body retains the nice lift and turn latches for the battery and SD covers.) I'm not sure how much I'd use video or live view so I really don't need to spend $1600 on the K-7. I got my K10D for ~$800, the K20D goes for around $1100 (Body only) so something around the $900 mark would be fine by me.

08-06-2009, 06:31 AM	#64
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	Originally posted by sebberry I haven't held the K-7 yet but I suspect it will be a bit small for my hands. (Plus the K20D body retains the nice lift and turn latches for the battery and SD covers.) The K-7 does have the same battery latch, though you're correct about the SD card slot changing. Very few (though some) have had a problem with the smaller body due to hand size. If you can, try it yourself. Then you can buy it in a year when the prices drop. My problem with the ergonomics comes down to button placement. I will wait and skip a generation. I feel no need to rush out and buy every new body that comes along. Originally posted by sebberry I would like to see a K30D based on the K20D body. I don't think this will happen. It seems evident that Pentax have production facilities for no more than three bodies at a time.

08-06-2009, 06:46 AM	#65
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by rparmar They lied in order to stress the K-7 as a "new concept". Lied? Isn't that too harsh? On the contrary, I think the K-7 can be regarded as a new concept (which doesn't necessarily means a new kind of camera, e.g. an EVIL camera instead of a SLR). They came closer to the concept of an APS-C pro model; they also targeted speed, small size, style (you might like it or not, though). They made room for a mid-level camera (which I think is coming). The most dangerous thing for the K-7 IMO is to be seen as "just a K20D with few updates". It's much more than that, and I won't blame Pentax for trying to emphasize this. And "new concept" is exactly this. My 2 (euro)cents. P.S. "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" (Ben Kenobi).

08-06-2009, 07:06 AM	#66
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	It is a new concept, the question is whether or not it works for you. Smaller size with more features is something that may not be new for Pentax, but it certainly is new for other companies. Normally, the higher end the camera, the bigger the body to accomodate the new features. Magnesium alloy body, in particular, is not present in any similarly priced body. It does seem like a lot of the negativity toward the K7 comes from people who haven't really used it, but have perceptions about its ergonomics, image quality, high iso capability, etc based on online postings. It seems that it doesn't take much information to form a strong opinion on any subject, particularly cameras.

08-06-2009, 07:24 AM	#67
stanleyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Taylor, Texas Posts: 1,018	Blue- In total agreement on the UF thing. I have no particular love for Mr. Saban either. I do think Ark made a great hire with Petrino.

08-06-2009, 09:49 AM	#68
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	Originally posted by Rondec It is a new concept, the question is whether or not it works for you. Originally posted by Kunzite Lied? Isn't that too harsh? On the contrary, I think the K-7 can be regarded as a new concept. Maybe harsh, but to the point. K-7 has no features other cameras don't already have. No doubt the total package makes it a desirable camera to some, for which I am happy enough. But there is no "new concept" here, just the same old concept every other manufacturer employs... cram in as many features as possible, whether useful or not. There is nothing wrong with this maximalist approach, but it is not the only way. The K-7 breaks no new ground in size or weight, not even among Pentax DSLRs. As for magnesium body, I'd prefer that omitted, weather-sealing shed and perhaps even top LCD gone to make unit significantly smaller again... like a superior K-m. That plus a reduced feature set and redesigned interface might indeed be the Limited camera I want... the camera that has that "soul" Pentax marketing goes on about. Right now the K-7 is playing catch-up with other brands and rather falls between two stools conceptually. To be crystal clear: the K-7 is likely the best SLR Pentax has made. But it is not the camera we were promised. P.S. Nothing improves without criticism. Would we have seen the firmware "fix" for the AF buttons without people like me daring to criticize "the new way"?

08-06-2009, 09:50 AM	#69
brecklundin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 1,674	Originally posted by Blue He has made this comment in several threads now. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/679264-post188.html he who? Try and be concise in your comments when refering to others...that is WHY there is the quote option.

08-06-2009, 09:59 AM	#70
brecklundin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 1,674	Originally posted by Rondec It is a new concept, the question is whether or not it works for you. Smaller size with more features is something that may not be new for Pentax, but it certainly is new for other companies. Normally, the higher end the camera, the bigger the body to accomodate the new features. Magnesium alloy body, in particular, is not present in any similarly priced body. It does seem like a lot of the negativity toward the K7 comes from people who haven't really used it, but have perceptions about its ergonomics, image quality, high iso capability, etc based on online postings. It seems that it doesn't take much information to form a strong opinion on any subject, particularly cameras. I don't think one should group any questioning of QC or known hardware faults as uninformed opinions. The known and acknowledged hardware flaw wrt overheating which leads to green line syndrome (GLS) is alone, enough to be wary of the K7 for now. I know I will not be willing to go through multiple bodies to find one that might not quite reach the critical point within the body to show the lines. Just because the line does not show now does not imply the problem is still not there waiting for component fatigue due to near-overheating, undervolting/overvolting/whatever... That is the only reason I see it as not a body I would recommend anyone buy if it is the only body they will own, and even then, until a true identification of the issue as well as a fix is announced by HoyaTax. And no I do not own a K7...and am glad I changed my mind at the last minute. And that is in spite of how much I want and need the changes to the K7 over the K20D. For a client, I would never spec any hardware with anything with unresolved hardware related issues. Why would I do the same for myself?

08-06-2009, 10:18 AM	#71
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Originally posted by brecklundin I don't think one should group any questioning of QC or known hardware faults as uninformed opinions. The known and acknowledged hardware flaw wrt overheating which leads to green line syndrome (GLS) is alone, enough to be wary of the K7 for now. I know I will not be willing to go through multiple bodies to find one that might not quite reach the critical point within the body to show the lines. Just because the line does not show now does not imply the problem is still not there waiting for component fatigue due to near-overheating, undervolting/overvolting/whatever... That is the only reason I see it as not a body I would recommend anyone buy if it is the only body they will own, and even then, until a true identification of the issue as well as a fix is announced by HoyaTax. And no I do not own a K7...and am glad I changed my mind at the last minute. And that is in spite of how much I want and need the changes to the K7 over the K20D. For a client, I would never spec any hardware with anything with unresolved hardware related issues. Why would I do the same for myself? I actually agree with you, Pentax has a responsibility to turn out a good product that is reliable in both short and long term. The hard thing about a forum like this is that it tends to make problem cameras seem like the rule rather than the exception. In reality, it is hard to say if "problem" cameras are outliers, or if they are common. Not knowing this, I have a hard time slamming Pentax too hard. Also, since Pentax is giving a three year warranty with the cameras at this time and in my experience has been quick to fix problems, if problems would develop, I have confidence that they would be taken care of.

08-06-2009, 10:21 AM	#72
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by rparmar Maybe harsh, but to the point. Well, English is not my first language - so I might be confused regarding the precise meaning of some words But, I don't see a problem with the K-7 not offering something truly new, while still being a "new concept". As a camera, it's different enough. The K20D was not 'fast', was not 'compact', was not truly 'high-end'. And it's biggest fault - the K20D was not differentiated enough from the K10D. I understand perfectly why they don't want to make the same mistake. And, what did they promised? Why are you angry? IMO, with the K-7 they solved many complains I've saw on misc. forums. They listened to us. They gave us more speed, they improved the AF also for tungsten light, included an AF-assist lamp and so on. P.S. Constructive criticism is good. I also complained (not here, iirc) about things like the AF select buttons, ISO button location, rubber covers and few other things like that. I still think, like you, it's likely the best Pentax DSLR; I might buy it if I didn't had a very nice K20D. But, please... calling them liars is not constructive criticism.

08-06-2009, 10:25 AM	#73
MrApollinax Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,529	In my little corner of the Engineering world it is pretty simple to define if there is a problem that is a one-off or if it is a systemic issue: Step 1: Can you reproduce the problem? If so how do you do it? Step 2: Does the problem occurr 100% of the time during testing cases Step 3: Is your sample the only one exhibiting this issue? On top of all that there is the manufacturers warranty which should address all issues after the fact as well. Look at MS and the 360 consoles. They found that there is a specific problem that may happen to some (not all) units and enacted a policy to retroactively cover those units with an automatically extended 3-year warranty.

08-06-2009, 10:32 AM	#74
brecklundin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 1,674	Originally posted by Rondec I actually agree with you, Pentax has a responsibility to turn out a good product that is reliable in both short and long term. The hard thing about a forum like this is that it tends to make problem cameras seem like the rule rather than the exception. In reality, it is hard to say if "problem" cameras are outliers, or if they are common. Not knowing this, I have a hard time slamming Pentax too hard. Also, since Pentax is giving a three year warranty with the cameras at this time and in my experience has been quick to fix problems, if problems would develop, I have confidence that they would be taken care of. An emphatic YES...I agree also that Pentax will find a solution. Not only because, well, they have to if they want to continue to exist. But I might not commit to the opinion this is not a more widespread issue than we see reported here or elsewhere. I say that because a lot of people might never read the boards or post to them and simply return the body...or worse yet, do not pay close enough attention to even be aware of the issue. As for Pentax, I almost wonder if they already know the fix but now need to get the bean counters to sign off on the proposed solution. Remember, now they are dealing with the Hoya bean counters not the Pentax bean counters...and my worst concern is that they were aware of the issue prior to release but the bean counters simply decided it was more cost effective to sell already produced bodies and deal with the fallout when the time comes. I know I am often too cynical. but, hey, just because I am paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me!!

08-06-2009, 10:43 AM	#75
brecklundin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 1,674	Originally posted by MrApollinax In my little corner of the Engineering world it is pretty simple to define if there is a problem that is a one-off or if it is a systemic issue: Step 1: Can you reproduce the problem? If so how do you do it? Step 2: Does the problem occurr 100% of the time during testing cases Step 3: Is your sample the only one exhibiting this issue? On top of all that there is the manufacturers warranty which should address all issues after the fact as well. Look at MS and the 360 consoles. They found that there is a specific problem that may happen to some (not all) units and enacted a policy to retroactively cover those units with an automatically extended 3-year warranty. My only problem with that is, I expect a body I buy to last a decade or more...if my device or how I use it always keeps it on the fringe of triggering the behavior, I will be unhappy when my camera body dies in 5-yrs...as for the Xbox, different sort of hardware...3-yrs is an eternity in terms of how long most owners keep them before upgrading to the newest and "bestest" model...I bet most upgrade within months of every new released model. Camera owners are not the same animal keeping the same body and lenses for decades not a few years. If it toward the upgrade-treadmill, it will be a sad day for the hobby... I also have a similar concern for the lifespan of the seals in the bodies and lenses. How to we make them last and also how long should they last? If you go by the warranty, then that is how long and anything else is a bonus. Not much reassurance for the premium being charged for sealed lenses which now lack an aperture ring as well. So many changes, but that sure keeps it interesting I suppose.