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08-04-2009, 05:57 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That is Sony Semiconductor; not Sonys DSLR division..,...
Details, details...

08-04-2009, 07:28 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Sony sells a lot of entry level DSLR's (they sell a lot of entry level anything!) to unsuspecting buyers. They have a hard time selling higher end stuff. Pentax problem is the opposite. Relatively high sales of their more expensive products but having a hard time sell lots to the masses of the cheaper stuff....
Pentax's cheap staff are basically ... well ... not very good


Canon and Nikon sells like they sell , BC Canon have the Rebel , and Nikon have the dxx . both are amazing entry level cameras.

Sony sells a lot of televisions enough to have a commercial for a Sony DSLR at every subway station in NYC
08-04-2009, 07:58 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote

I haven't noticed Sony launching newly issued dslr's at lets say $1,299 and then just 6 or 7 months later selling it for half of that launch price. The a900 started at $3,000 and now its $2,700. A solid 10% drop for those who wait, not some 40% to 50% off a couple seasons later.

It seems to me that the three-grand camera models in any brand that make them are pretty stubborn about the prices ever coming down. Simple fact is, Pentax has been catching up in certain regards, while really making cameras for my 'niche.' As long as they keep doing that, (and of course stay in business) that's great. I'd love something a bit like an a900, particularly not being afraid to have a big, spectacular finder, but if I were in a position to be impatient for that, I might have gone other directions for digital.

I think in the case of the a900, there's still no replacement model on the horizon, and they probably haven't made the unit sales to recoup the R&D yet, so there's no reason or particular ability to start selling them much cheaper.

The case of the K20d, I think, is *great* for Pentax. It makes Pentaxians out of people who otherwise couldn't afford a digital camera to our standards.
08-04-2009, 08:43 PM   #19
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You've got something there, full frames don't initially shed launch price like aps-c

5D Mark II anounced in Nov 2008 and some nine months later it remains at launch unless you hunt for short run day or two specials or use hefty $500 military AAfees discounts:

Canon Camera Museum | Camera Hall - Digital SLR

In nine months no pentax dslr would remain at its launch price but instead be 40% or more off. We'll see if past predicts future for K-7 pricing and its subsequent drops.

I noticed today my D700 is up $330 at B&H since I got mine in January 2009. It was one of the few items I bought new since 2008 from Canon and Nikon that had not gone up.

KEH sells 5D for $150 more used than my new ones ran me in 2008. I'm glad I added other brands before the prices increased due to predictable upward moves due to poor dollar versus strong yen exchange.

These are tough times for camera makers, big or small. I'm still amazed Sony tripled their dslr unit sales during 2008. I still have not seen the unit dslr sales numbers for Pentax. I wonder if Pentax tripled their dslr sales numbers over 2008 like Sony did?






QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
It seems to me that the three-grand camera models in any brand that make them are pretty stubborn about the prices ever coming down. Simple fact is, Pentax has been catching up in certain regards, while really making cameras for my 'niche.' As long as they keep doing that, (and of course stay in business) that's great. I'd love something a bit like an a900, particularly not being afraid to have a big, spectacular finder, but if I were in a position to be impatient for that, I might have gone other directions for digital.

I think in the case of the a900, there's still no replacement model on the horizon, and they probably haven't made the unit sales to recoup the R&D yet, so there's no reason or particular ability to start selling them much cheaper.

The case of the K20d, I think, is *great* for Pentax. It makes Pentaxians out of people who otherwise couldn't afford a digital camera to our standards.


08-04-2009, 09:07 PM   #20
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Here's the specific commentary from their financials re: Pentax.

"3. Pentax
With regard to Pentax medical endoscope products, although favorable trends were seen with regard
to the new endoscope system that is compatible with mega-pixel imaging, there was a decrease in
earnings compared to the same quarter last year as overseas sales were impacted by a strong yen.
For digital cameras, although earnings increased due to higher unit prices despite a decline in sales
volumes compared to the preceding quarter, sales of compact digital cameras declined compared to
the same quarter last year, while single lens reflex (SLR) camera earnings declined as a result of
fierce price competition breaking out with competitor companies.
As a result, Pentax segment sales during the quarter under review amounted to 24,640 million yen.
Operating losses were contracted due to the impact of cost reductions resultant from structural
changes implemented during the previous reporting period. As such operating losses during the
quarter under review amounted to 941 million yen."
08-05-2009, 04:29 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by laissezfaire Quote
For digital cameras, although earnings increased due to higher unit prices despite a decline in sales
volumes compared to the preceding quarter, sales of compact digital cameras declined compared to
the same quarter last year, while single lens reflex (SLR) camera earnings declined as a result of
fierce price competition breaking out with competitor companies.."

But shipment of Pentax DSLR increased by 40% but sales will be recorded the next quarter. Then theres the K-7.....
08-05-2009, 06:50 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Sony sells Nikon sensors. Sony makes both CCD and CMOS sensors. Don't they sell pentax sensors for their K2000/Km ? Is Sony selling all these sensors to other camera manufacturers at a loss? You may not realize this but nikon captures 40% of the annual dslr market. I think theres alot of Sony manufactured Sensor sales happening, every year, year after year....

What did Sony pay Minolta for their legacy cameras division? Was the amount Sony paid Minolta more or less than Hoya paid for entire pentax corporation?


Thats sad Sony sold only 21 million point and shoots last year and only tripled their dslr sales during a global recession. I wonder how 1.5 million sony dslr unit sales stacks up against total 2008 pentax dslr sales, and how 21 million P&S unit sales stacks up against 2008 pentax point and shoot unit sales?

Would you roll in profits for making sensors Sony sells to other companies or exclude it from cameras division?

I haven't noticed Sony launching newly issued dslr's at lets say $1,299 and then just 6 or 7 months later selling it for half of that launch price. The a900 started at $3,000 and now its $2,700. A solid 10% drop for those who wait, not some 40% to 50% off a couple seasons later.
As Pal said, sensors are made by a separate division entirely. Results are not part of camera division sales.

Sony in the UK are selling entry levels DSLRs and kit lenses at £100 less than anyone else and providing fairy large cash incentives to salesmen who sell them. They cannot be making any margin (given the Yen exchange rate they would have to be making an A200 for about $40). How that translates into long term brand buyin I dont know. Personally, I dont think many low end SLR buyers tend to upgrade - they just want something better than a P&S.

Last edited by *isteve; 08-05-2009 at 06:57 AM.
08-05-2009, 09:20 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by redpigeons Quote
Pentax's cheap staff are basically ... well ... not very good


Canon and Nikon sells like they sell , BC Canon have the Rebel , and Nikon have the dxx . both are amazing entry level cameras.

Sony sells a lot of televisions enough to have a commercial for a Sony DSLR at every subway station in NYC
like a yankee fan ... " Just wait till next year!"
seriously, i think Pentax will have 2 more dslrs by years end. they can't just have the K-7 on top and the K2000 entry level and nothing in between.

08-05-2009, 09:52 AM   #24
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yo hiroshi !!! profits up???? hmmmmmmm.... anything to do with pentax glass prices soaring towards the heavens?????? thanks, you're a pal...........

Last edited by dcmsox2004; 08-05-2009 at 09:53 AM. Reason: misspell
08-05-2009, 05:11 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by laissezfaire Quote
Here's the specific commentary from their financials re: Pentax.

"3. Pentax
With regard to Pentax medical endoscope products, although favorable trends were seen with regard
to the new endoscope system that is compatible with mega-pixel imaging, there was a decrease in
earnings compared to the same quarter last year as overseas sales were impacted by a strong yen.
For digital cameras, although earnings increased due to higher unit prices despite a decline in sales
volumes compared to the preceding quarter, sales of compact digital cameras declined compared to
the same quarter last year, while single lens reflex (SLR) camera earnings declined as a result of
fierce price competition breaking out with competitor companies.
As a result, Pentax segment sales during the quarter under review amounted to 24,640 million yen.
Operating losses were contracted due to the impact of cost reductions resultant from structural
changes implemented during the previous reporting period. As such operating losses during the
quarter under review amounted to 941 million yen."
key words:
"earnings increased due to higher unit prices"
"earnings declined as a result offierce price competition"

doesn't it infer that Hoya is going to increase unit prices and giving up the price competition? LOL
08-05-2009, 06:13 PM   #26
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While Hoya made a profit, Pentax posted a loss of 941 million Yen for the quarter, which was mitigated (i.e., it would have been worse) due to "cost reductions from structural changes" which is not going to be an ongoing mitigation. Their market share is too small and being crowded out by Nikon, Canon and Sony, which will continue if they stubbornly cling to their APS-C only lineup, since they thereby limit themselves to only the most hotly contested market segment with the smallest (and getting smaller) margins.

As for the A900, it would sell a great deal better if Sony would get the image processing sorted out, the other limitation being the Minolta lens mount. Minolta, like Canon, abandoned their manual focus customers when the switch to autofocus was made, which limits how much backward compatible glass exists. If Sony wants to supercharge their A900 sales, they should make one with a PK mount! It's also amusing how the industry propaganda has everyone so convinced that Sony can't make money on the A900 price tag (i.e., they still have people convinced that the full frame sensors are SOOO expensive). Kudos to Sony for introducing some price realism to the FF dSLR market, and I hope they do get their image processing issues sorted out and start beating up on Canon and Nikon - and maybe light a fire under sleepy Pentax in the process. Competition is good and benefits all photo equipment consumers!
08-05-2009, 06:56 PM   #27
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Intersting Canon full frame prediction ?

Just came across this and it made me think of the full frame turn this thread made:

>>>"

2009 August

5th

For the 7D we've had an update saying that it will be:

APS-C, ~15MP, dual Digic IV, 8FPS and 100% viewfinder.



At the foot of this page note this 2005 comment:

"Brian Worley, product manager of D-SLR cameras at Canon Europa, said that it's a long way before all EOS models will have a full size sensor, but Canon's aim is to equip all models, except the cheapest, with a 35mm sensor in the future."


<<<"

So 4 years have past since this canon insider info posted. I guess when canon only offers low end aps-c dslrs this will work in Pentax favor as Pentax seems to be persuing the crop format pro shooter. K-7 isn't far away. Dual card slots, bigger viewfinder, sdm teleconverter (s) and they are golden. That is if people are still buying aps-c when full frame is so affordable in the future. The vast majority of canon glass is already designed for digital full frame. I will not be surprised when Canon abandons high end aps-c format. They abandoined FD & they'll drop aps-c format specific glass too.
08-05-2009, 10:48 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
So 4 years have past since this canon insider info posted. I guess when canon only offers low end aps-c dslrs this will work in Pentax favor as Pentax seems to be persuing the crop format pro shooter. K-7 isn't far away. Dual card slots, bigger viewfinder, sdm teleconverter (s) and they are golden. That is if people are still buying aps-c when full frame is so affordable in the future. The vast majority of canon glass is already designed for digital full frame. I will not be surprised when Canon abandons high end aps-c format. They abandoined FD & they'll drop aps-c format specific glass too.
That is exactly sony is doing. with the release of A850, they are testing the market's choice between high-end APS-C and low-end FF. Will they success? well, only time will tell.
08-06-2009, 04:02 AM   #29
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Whether or not everyone flocks to full frame depends on cost, but also on perceived benefit. Until the pixel density is the same on full frames as on APS-C, it will always make sense for those who shoot with longer glass to use APS-C. It really does (in some ways) add length to your glass. Some companies have sold that pretty hard and the question is how consumers take to being told that it doesn't really and they need a full frame sensor.
08-06-2009, 05:56 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Whether or not everyone flocks to full frame depends on cost, but also on perceived benefit. Until the pixel density is the same on full frames as on APS-C, it will always make sense for those who shoot with longer glass to use APS-C. It really does (in some ways) add length to your glass. Some companies have sold that pretty hard and the question is how consumers take to being told that it doesn't really and they need a full frame sensor.
You cannot get away from the fact that the vast majority of DSLR sales are the bottom 2 models in the range. The top end models are primarily bought by rich amateurs, news agencies and the odd freelance pro (though most of the latter are still using perfectly functional older gear such as 1D mk2s because it works fine and they have bills to pay).

Altogether they account for less than 5% by volume of sales, probably only a tad more of the net profit, and nearly all the R&D cost (though this benefits lower end models too eventually).

If micro APS becomes a market force (yet to be seen but Canon are very nervous about the Japanese market takeup of the GH1 - a direct impact to the Rebel lineup) it may wipe out the market for cameras like the Nikon D60 and Rebel. If so, Canon and Nikon may well scrap low end SLRs in favour of micro APS cameras sooner rather than later.

If this happens, the OVF SLR concept is likely to become a specialist format long before "cheap FF" versions appear. They are after all inherently bulky and complex to mass manufacture at reasonable cost. An OVF camera with almost no moving parts would eventually become far cheaper to build (hence profitable) once the EVF technology and contrast AF technology is mature, because its almost all electronics based.

In fact its more likely that OVF cameras will shrink into a specialised pro oriented sector with sensor sizes from APSC upwards (though FF would dominate I would guess).

If so, I dont see "low cost FF" as being something particularly desirable to the manufacturers because the general low cost photo market will be dominated by the micro format, and the SLR market will need higher margins to remain profitable.
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