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08-19-2009, 11:23 AM   #61
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As for EVIL tech, may be gee-whiz nifty, making cameras almost as small as film SLRs: it may go somewhere, but:

Shutter lag is intolerable. Anywhere.

08-19-2009, 11:37 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
As for EVIL tech, may be gee-whiz nifty, making cameras almost as small as film SLRs: it may go somewhere, but:

Shutter lag is intolerable. Anywhere.
I just picked up the E-P1, set it to MF, focused (with 7x assist on the LCD), pressed the button and "click". There was no perceptible lag.

The "lag" that people experience with the E-P1 is AF. Olympus didn't do as good a job as Panasonic with the contrast AF (the G1 AF is pretty damn close to dSLR speeds).

Different tools for different needs and different preferences. On the street I have people actually ask to have their picture taken when I have the E-P1 in hand (happened just this AM). With a big dSLR in my hand? Usually a different reaction.

The E-P1 is a flawed camera, but Olympus got some things *very* right with it. I'm very interested to see what they do with the next iteration.
08-19-2009, 11:51 AM   #63
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IMHO Samsung were the perfect partners to sort out the DREADFUL performance issue Pentax had/has compared to larger brands. Up until the 10D our cameras were sooooo sloooooow it was painful.
08-19-2009, 12:14 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
I can only speak from personal experience with industries located in Los Angeles. For digital media creation, Macs are firmly entrenched (eg check the number of works created using FinalCutPro). About the only place they have lagged is in the game biz. In the sciences there is significant presence along with the edu sector.

There also is a vast amount of amateur cultural production created on Macs - beyond their market share.

As for style over substance, I also have a very fast Sager running Vista. Talk about a steaming pile of crap...

No system is perfect, but companies that excel generally have an aesthetic and value both form and function. I do not believe that Apple is all "style over substance" but ymmv. I do know that myself and many colleagues have made our living using Apple products, and some of us actually aren't hipsters. I just need to get stuff done. I find it easier/faster/better on a Mac. For others they prefer windows. No biggie - different strokes.

Pentax actually *does* have an aesthetic (eg the ltd primes). Canikon really don't. This is where Pentax could actually carve out a niche - weather resistant tough cameras with a sense of style.
To what end style? I can't see many people buying a DSLR purely on style alone, although the weather-sealing idea is definitely Pentax's strong point (a lotta good photos involve rain, snow, sea spray, and, dare I say it...other...fluids.)

My opinion of macs is that anything they can do can be done for far cheaper on PC. Different strokes indeed, but in terms of Pentax, I'd rather get them to have the same ubiquity as the PC. Better uptake, volume orders, all that. I'd rather Pentax become the brand newspapers buy as pool cameras, not the brand for a select few. One of Pentax's other strengths is their value for money (please don't start saying it should become like Leica. Oh, god, six grand for a fifty mill lens?)

The cultural production definition's hard to quantify down, but I'd warrant there'd be still more PC users out there. Remember, there's also the government agencies, and the businesses that use PCs. Wish the governments'd make their own OSes, though.

Keep the primes, but. Someone was saying that Tokina should be making the glass, and Pentax should stick with the bodies. Pentax have been making the Limiteds, excellent little lenses by all accounts, yet now everyone is afraid to buy the 16-50mm Tokina re-badge - some of the performance shot of samplings of that lens look worse than any other maker's kit lenses. A two-thousand dollar or thereabouts lens. I honestly think Tokina's a dud move on Hoya's part, though it did give us SDM, and let us get SDM lenses out fast.

You're right about Vista, too. It was a steaming pile (I say was, because MS is at the "let's pretend it didn't happen, like ME" stage of grief.) They were hoping to discontinue support of XP a couple of months after Vista's release; popular demand saw that they didn't. If you can get XP on that Sager, there'll be at least a 7-10% increase in performance, frames-in-games. No, not because you'll lose DX10, but it's just that Vista is that bloated and terrible. Already the betas of Win 7 are beating it. If you can live without DX10 until Windows seven, I highly recommend nuking and starting over.

QuoteOriginally posted by X Man Quote
It's because there's no need to argue with you. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. You clearly need no assistance in making yourself look like an idiot.

Only a fool would even attempt to engage you in debate.

Regards,
Mike

EDIT: 400th Post! (if it remains... ) ;-P
Nice, mature, well thought-out comeback, that one. You're definitely doing Apple a big favour by playing up the stereotypes - smug, superiority complex. That's it. I've provided more hard data defending your brand in an attempt to deride it than you have.

Only fool might attempt to engage me in a debate, but they'll come up with better rebuttals than you, as you've ably demonstrated. Bravo. You're what PC users bitch about, X man.

Thanks for the regards, by the way, and for mentioning me in your four hundredth post.


Last edited by lithos; 08-19-2009 at 12:25 PM.
08-19-2009, 12:22 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
The E-P1 is a flawed camera, but Olympus got some things *very* right with it. I'm very interested to see what they do with the next iteration.
Remember when rangefinders ruled the land? And then the SLR took over? We may be witnessing another changing of the guard - to smaller, lighter EVIL cameras with IQ that is good enough for most enthusiasts. Pentax would do well to partner with someone that will give them a competitive edge in EVIL technology and/or small sensors with excellent IQ.
08-19-2009, 12:23 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
IMHO Samsung were the perfect partners to sort out the DREADFUL performance issue Pentax had/has compared to larger brands. Up until the 10D our cameras were sooooo sloooooow it was painful.
so slow at what exactly?

since we are all playing the speculation game. I hope for a future Kodak alliance. no real reason, just would be cool.
08-19-2009, 12:26 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
To what end style? I can't see many people buying a DSLR purely on style alone, although the weather-sealing idea is definitely Pentax's strong point (a lotta good photos involve rain, snow, sea spray, and, dare I say it...other...fluids.)

My opinion of macs is that anything they can do can be done for far cheaper on PC. Different strokes indeed, but in terms of Pentax, I'd rather get them to have the same ubiquity as the PC. Better uptake, volume orders, all that. I'd rather Pentax become the brand newspapers buy as pool cameras, not the brand for a select few. One of Pentax's other strengths is their value for money (please don't start saying it should become like Leica. Oh, god, six grand for a fifty mill lens?)

You're right about Vista, too. It was a steaming pile (I say was, because MS is at the "let's pretend it didn't happen, like ME" stage of grief.) They were hoping to discontinue support of XP a couple of months after Vista's release; popular demand saw that they didn't.
I'm not advocating an Apple/Pentax alliance - just arguing that Apple is an innovator and they are making a profit while most others are seeing red ink. Style/aesthetic count for something in the marketplace. I agree that you can do the same things on a PC, but "cheaper" depends on your workflow and other intangibles. Initial purchase price? Agree. TCO and more importantly, the amount of time/effort a user needs? That is another story.

I don't know that Hoya has the desire to spend the money to have Pentax compete with Canikon as a commodity item. I really don't see them getting to that place in the market. Sony has done it but they have spent GOBS of money and have a HUGE reputation as a consumer electronics maker. Their brand awareness is as high as anyone. Hoya? Zip. Pentax? More than zero awareness, but small and fading.

I still think that niche is where they can be profitable. But time will tell.

And I can't believe how bad Vista is
08-19-2009, 12:28 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Wish the governments'd make their own OSes, though.
You've got to be kidding. The only thing that would do is make Vista look like the best OS ever

08-19-2009, 12:39 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
IMHO Samsung were the perfect partners to sort out the DREADFUL performance issue Pentax had/has compared to larger brands. Up until the 10D our cameras were sooooo sloooooow it was painful.
It is a baseless affirmation, the Prime image processor is a collaboration of Pentax and Fujitsu Semiconductors. Samsung did a lot less than they alleged might in semiconductors would suggest. In fact beside the 2 sensors (or 1 + an update) there is no proof they updated any electronics to help Pentax. And the best self admission from their is the fact that after K10D and K20D (which clone the GX20 they dump in Europe at very low prices) they never bothered to relabel another Pentax camera (of the three issued). Samsung sucked big time as a partner and after almost 4 years of learning they shut off Pentax from the NX project.

Radu
08-19-2009, 12:40 PM   #70
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Sorry, edited my post a bit (a bit more about Vista.) My rule with new Windows OSes is to wait a few years and see if they sink or swim. Vista sank like a Collins class.

Samsung'd do it. More money that Sony - got all those fat defence contracts, after all. More fingers, more pies.

I said somewhere else I wouldn't mind a Samtax - as long as Samsung handles the electronics and construction, and Pentax handles the more traditionally camera-y bits - finder, ergonomics, shutter assembly, and of course, lenses.

Lenses are what make Pentax great. The Limiteds, and for years SMC was/is the best readily-available coating in the world.

Most of all - it needs cash. There's a saying in times of economic unpleasantness, and that's if you cut back on advertising you probably won't survive. When people get some liquid cash back, your brand may as well not exist if you didn't remind them. I'm seeing Pentax ads in papers here (it's a miracle, that) so Pentax isn't going too badly.

But if the consolidate with Samsung a bit better - how about Samsung handling P&S cams, with Pentax lenses (another question: what's with Schneider Kreuznach? Famous company, I know, good LF glass, but...that's three brands to tangle with!)

It seems that all Pentax is using Samsung for is sensors, maybe a few electrical components. Kinda waste, and to pay for it by letting Samsung rebadge some DSLRs and further dilute Pentax market share (or, even, it's point in making cameras) doesn't seem worth it.

Failing a buyout of Pentax, they should at least make a Samtax...preferably full frame.

And government OSes: rather a version of Linux than Vista....isn't the LA government having a massive computer systems crisis at the moment? Cracked passwords, or something?
08-19-2009, 12:56 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
My opinion of macs is that anything they can do can be done for far cheaper on PC.
If you don't care about time, quality, or total investment, then I agree.

Keynote is a massively better program than powerpoint - the transitions are more professional and it is much more flexible.

iMovie (included at no extra charge) utterly owns Windows Movie Maker in what it can produce. The difference between them is akin to the difference between a professional product and a child's toy.

Final Cut Pro is quickly gaining more and more market dominance in professional video editing, edging out Sony and others.

In terms of audio, GarageBand (also a freebie) is a quasi-professional product included with every Apple computer. NIN have actually recorded albums in GarageBand, and later released the masters to be remixed by fans.

Logic Pro is a true industry standard for studio recording.

The iPod has over 70% market share last I checked, and the iPhone just became the number 1 phone in Japan, of all places.


You can (ostensibly) do all of these things on a PC, but they will frequently require hundreds of dollars of extra software, and the integration and speed will not be present at the same level it is on a Mac. Many of the things I can accomplish in 10 minutes in GarageBand (no extra charge) would take me 3 hours on a barebones PC, even if I added relatively capable open-source solutions like Audacity.

Here's the thing I've noticed about Macs vs. PCs:
When I get a new PC, I spend several hours installing anti-virus, anti-spyware, and other basic maintenance programs. Then, I spend another several hours installing the (sometimes expensive) software I'd like to use to manage my music, pictures, movies, whatever.
When I get a new Mac, I turn on the computer, and then I start actually having fun or being productive messing around with my music, pictures, or whatever.

I'm not saying that you need to convert to a Mac, or that they're the be-all end-all for every purpose. But I am saying that they are capable machines that are worth every penny, and frequently serve as the undisputed best-in-class for some application. You're being intellectually dishonest if you don't recognize this.
08-19-2009, 12:56 PM   #72
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Here's an idea, not necessarily the best but I wouldn't mind hearing other's thoughts on it:

What if Pentax started making third-party glass? Hoya is an optical company, after all, so why not let Hoya's photographic company produce more photographic optics?

Imagine a pancake series for m4/3's and NX bodies. Limited primes and weather-sealed lenses for Canikon. Revive the Takumar name for third-party lenses to keep the Pentax brand intact. Hot cakes couldn't sell as well.

Sure, Pentax would sell fewer camera bodies. But they'd sell many more lenses. My guess is that lenses are more profitable than bodies.

If Pentax can't find a good electronics partner, perhaps sell the camera body portion to Samsung. Just so long as Pentax keeps making its glass, I'd be happy--even if using another company's body.

Just a thought.
08-19-2009, 01:03 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote

Samsung'd do it. More money that Sony - got all those fat defence contracts, after all. More fingers, more pies.
Not only that, I think that Samsung really wants to be like Sony...well, the old Sony that had profits

The problem is that while Samsung has money, they don't have the brand association with consumer electronics that Sony does. They are far further along than they were a few years ago, but at least in the states Samsung isn't uttered in the same breath as Sony, Panasonic, Canon. But I think that is their goal.

The question is whether or not Pentax gives them a leg up assuming they in fact want to compete in the dSLR sector.

Maybe Samsung will just look for a movie studio to buy instead
08-19-2009, 01:03 PM   #74
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QuoteQuote:
Revive the Takumar name for third-party lenses to keep the Pentax brand intact.
dumbest thing I have ever heard. absolutely not. and what would that have to do with Pentax? there is a reason Pentax stopped using the Takumar name and switched to Pentax with the K mount. brand recognition. nobody knows who Pentax is now, why would they buy a Takumar? if you have to be reduced to selling 3rd party lenses and reviving an old name nobody knows to do it... you may as well close up shop.


I really hate these Pentax 'oh no!, what if?' threads.
08-19-2009, 02:43 PM   #75
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Sigma?

Is there any sense in Pentax tying up with Sigma at some time in the future?
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