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08-19-2009, 08:00 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
True. But look at cameras and camcorders. Or audio devices. Or game systems. Or movie studios

Like I said, Samsung has made strides, but they still are not perceived to be a player on par with Sony. For "TV" screens, yes. But for other categories they aren't there yet. "Handycam," "Cybershot," "Walkman," etc. That is brand recognition. While some is based on the past, consumer perception lags behind current innovation. And sometimes the better player loses (eg beta).
Disagree. Samsung has as high a market profile in Asia and the fastest growing economies as Sony, usually higher.

Sony is seen as being yesterday's technology and too closely tied to the US market and consumer. Sony is what your father buys.

Sony's weakness is its brand. It's strength is in its design and manufacturing muscle. Its forays into media and content have distracted the company, as if Toyota had sidelined into dance studios.

On the balance sheet Samsung is quite good, but Sony is a zombie.

08-19-2009, 08:12 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Disagree. Samsung has as high a market profile in Asia and the fastest growing economies as Sony, usually higher.

Sony is seen as being yesterday's technology and too closely tied to the US market and consumer. Sony is what your father buys.

Sony's weakness is its brand. It's strength is in its design and manufacturing muscle. Its forays into media and content have distracted the company, as if Toyota had sidelined into dance studios.

On the balance sheet Samsung is quite good, but Sony is a zombie.
Well, since I'm an American in America, I'm giving the American perspective. There are no other markets, right?

I don't disagree with what you and others have said, but I still don't see the breadth in Samsung's products that Sony has. You can argue that Sony has/is dead wood, but they make an incredible amount of broadcast/pro gear and that technology trickles down:

Sony | Broadcast and Business Solutions

And note: I'm not a Sony apologist. I really don't like the brand and don't own any of their gear. For video we shoot Canon or Panasonic and for audio I use a bunch of different stuff.

Then again, maybe Samsung is in the pro markets and I just don't know about them. I will admit that I just nosed around their sites and they certainly have expanded into a lot of areas. But I have yet to be on location and see any Samsung gear being used (other than their displays). Sony however is all over the place.
08-19-2009, 11:33 PM   #93
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There is one player who has not been mentioned.
Maybe I'm just naive but I think that if Hoya/Pentax are in the market for a partner, the partner should bring something to the table that Pentax does not have.
Pentax make a great camera but are weak in marketing and distribution.
So, find a willing partner (in Japan preferably) who might be into DSLR on a small scale; have some cash reserves; have a respected name; and have excellent distribution and marketing networks worldwide...
Enter Ricoh...?
08-20-2009, 12:53 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic:
Right now u4/3 cameras are the hottest on the market (E-P1 and GH1).
Hottest thing on the market ? Better tell Canon and Nikon.
You don't need to! I bet that they are looking hard at the July sales figures from Japan right now.

In the month of July in Japan, E-P1 was No. 3 in the chart with 11.7% market share, selling twice as many as D5000, or more than D5000 + D40 combined. G1 is at No. 7 with 3.9% market. And the weekly sales chart in August are showing continuing strength of E-P1 sales.

So even though you don't like Olympus and its E-P1, a lot of people do and it's a home run in Japan.

QuoteOriginally posted by ktwse:
and the clever positioning of the E-P1, they build a strong and coherent brand that - while it might only be relevant to 2% of the market
A lot more than that currently. E-P1 + G1 +GH1 accounts for over 16% market share in Japan. It is the FF market which continues to relinquish below the 2% mark. No FF camera make it into the top 30 in the week of Aug 10 - Aug 16 Japan weekly sales chart.

08-20-2009, 01:51 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Camera lucida Quote
Enter Ricoh...?
Wet dream. Ricoh compacts + Pentax SLRs FTW. I would love such a collaboration.

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
A lot more than that currently. E-P1 + G1 +GH1 accounts for over 16% market share in Japan. It is the FF market which continues to relinquish below the 2% mark. No FF camera make it into the top 30 in the week of Aug 10 - Aug 16 Japan weekly sales chart.
Pretty much supports what I said about the constant comments that Pentax needs a FF camera to survive (such claims are hogwash). I don't know if we can expect a long term market share of over 10% for the PEN style cameras, but it's most definitely concrete evidence that there's a market for it.

Reminds me of Nintendo, who everybody thought would be forced out of the console business until they completely disrupted it with the DS and Wii. Now they're outselling Microsoft and Sony combined on a global level IIRC.

So, simple, really. Pentax just needs a very clear position and proposition that caters to a specific niche of camera buyers that are willing to pay a premium for that proposition.
08-20-2009, 02:25 AM   #96
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Mmm I dunno what you all think, but the way I understand the interview is that Hoya is actually looking into buying, not selling. Maybe it's just the way it is written however.
08-20-2009, 02:33 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Mmm I dunno what you all think, but the way I understand the interview is that Hoya is actually looking into buying, not selling. Maybe it's just the way it is written however.

That's how I read it too......

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 08-20-2009 at 09:17 AM.
08-20-2009, 03:06 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eigengrau Quote
If you don't care about time, quality, or total investment, then I agree.

Keynote is a massively better program than powerpoint - the transitions are more professional and it is much more flexible.

iMovie (included at no extra charge) utterly owns Windows Movie Maker in what it can produce. The difference between them is akin to the difference between a professional product and a child's toy.

Final Cut Pro is quickly gaining more and more market dominance in professional video editing, edging out Sony and others.

In terms of audio, GarageBand (also a freebie) is a quasi-professional product included with every Apple computer. NIN have actually recorded albums in GarageBand, and later released the masters to be remixed by fans.

Logic Pro is a true industry standard for studio recording.

The iPod has over 70% market share last I checked, and the iPhone just became the number 1 phone in Japan, of all places.


You can (ostensibly) do all of these things on a PC, but they will frequently require hundreds of dollars of extra software, and the integration and speed will not be present at the same level it is on a Mac. Many of the things I can accomplish in 10 minutes in GarageBand (no extra charge) would take me 3 hours on a barebones PC, even if I added relatively capable open-source solutions like Audacity.

Here's the thing I've noticed about Macs vs. PCs:
When I get a new PC, I spend several hours installing anti-virus, anti-spyware, and other basic maintenance programs. Then, I spend another several hours installing the (sometimes expensive) software I'd like to use to manage my music, pictures, movies, whatever.
When I get a new Mac, I turn on the computer, and then I start actually having fun or being productive messing around with my music, pictures, or whatever.

I'm not saying that you need to convert to a Mac, or that they're the be-all end-all for every purpose. But I am saying that they are capable machines that are worth every penny, and frequently serve as the undisputed best-in-class for some application. You're being intellectually dishonest if you don't recognize this.
I did recognise it. The Mac is king in the recording industry, I've said before, if you read my previous posts.

That's about it, though. Minor roles in web design, flash coding and animation, even a bit of 3D. Keynote might be better than Powerpoint, but in my opinion that's like saying gonorrhea is better than syphilis. (Note on anyone using any slideshow software: Do Not. Use. The. Animations.)

Garageband et al, as you say, are not free. You pay for them when you buy the OS.

The iPod has seventy percent of the market, absolutely, but how many people are charging it on a Mac? They're more like Sigma - they make flashes a lot of people use, but no one cares about the cameras. Those are peripherals. The garnish to the main course.

Garageband on Mac, good on you. Can't say I've ever heard any music made from it - I don't bother with MySpace or DeviantArt or NIN, for that matter (Star****ers was an all right pop song.) This is indeed a cultural impact, though, just as my photobucket account is or the legions of mods for PC games or indie games are.

Absolutely, Windows takes time to set up, tweak, and protect. It's more like outfitting a 4WD to take you across the Sahara, whereas Macs only need to take you to the shops and back. Indeed, I'd say the lack of virii, trojans, etc, are a testament to its market share.

But if you look to the masses of orders placed by companies and governments, you won't find many for Mac. Indeed, Apple's isolationism keeps them out of most stores, (Myer in Brisbane had one or two,) instead keeping tight rein on their distribution through those Mac boutiques.

To have Pentax work in the Mac world would require an extreme reinvention of the brand. For starters, as is conspicuous by its absence in these posts, Apple's never been pushing the boundaries with hardware. Again, like the software, this is a matter of interpretation. You can't swap out the mobo on a Mac; most times, you can't even open the case on most of 'em without some form of crowbar. The heavy top-down, steep vertical approach will mean less third-party accessories for the camera due to vicious protection of IP and reluctance to share development information, as well as less technological innovation due to a perceived lack of competition.

Severe limitations would be place on the initial hardware runs in order to have give an easy feature-boost to future gear (Shuffle on the iPod, for example. Are there any Macs with eject buttons on the optical drives yet?)

Although, after foundering in the market, they would eventually start adopting competitor's hardware. EF Mount, Sony sensors, Hoya prisms, Samsung LCDs.

The interface would be, indeed, slick. What it's interfacing with would leave a lot to be desired. It would be a pain in the arse to learn, though. And I don't know what the company who created the Mighty Mouse would do the backplate of a DSLR.

I've no desired to bother with things like iMovie (if it's so good, why Final Cut Pro - am starting on that one next week, actually.) Garageband - why Logic Pro? If it's good enough for Trent...

Would give Pentax a shot in the arm, marketing-wise, though.

Much more importantly, though - I don't think Jobs'd touch Pentax.

08-20-2009, 04:17 AM   #99
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I am not sure where all of this gloom and doom comes from. The interview sounded pretty straight forward. Pentax's camera division isn't making money right now and Hoya is trying to figure out what acquisition would help it make money. I think in a down economy, to have several hundred billion yen to spend on an aquisition is pretty amazing and says a lot about the solidity of Hoya as a whole.

I also don't think the Samsung relationship is going away any time soon. No one else buys the Samsung sensors and at least for right now, Samsung doesn't make a camera to use them in. I think that unless Hoya buys a sensor maker, this relationship will continue on, for better or worse.
08-20-2009, 04:19 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by ktwse Quote
Pretty much supports what I said about the constant comments that Pentax needs a FF camera to survive (such claims are hogwash).
I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Having a FF body in a brand's camera line can easily affect their APS-C sales also. Potential buyers can be influenced by the perceived quality of the brand and having a serious FF model certainly would have an effect on that. Also, for somebody buying only an APS-C body today, the possibility of upgrading in the future to the brand's FF can be the deciding factor.
08-20-2009, 05:15 AM   #101
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QuoteQuote:
I am not sure where all of this gloom and doom comes from.
it gets collectively pulled out of everyone's ass, every time Hoya releases a press interview or some other obscure statement.
08-20-2009, 05:51 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
it gets collectively pulled out of everyone's ass, every time Hoya releases a press interview or some other obscure statement.
Nor far from my sentiment although I wouldn't have found such a way of expressing it
08-20-2009, 06:46 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Naw, not like there is any history between Korea and Japan...

That said, the Chinese are now running call centers for Japanese companies. If there is money to be made, it is amazing how past transgressions can be (temporarily) overlooked.
No loss in pride to have cheap foreign labor used - Vietnam, Philippines, China, etc. The key point of prestige is who are the managers and where are they located? Where is the HQ offices at? Where is the corporate pride and image in the community located? Business is business, but business is about real people with real egos.
08-20-2009, 06:50 AM   #104
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It is really amazing how much of the discussion of this topic ended up being arguments about Apple/Mac.
08-20-2009, 06:51 AM   #105
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Only as it applies to the idea of Apple buying out Pentax, Photomy.

Like I said, people like an upgrade path, however ill-founded their desires may be. In fact, to get most users comfortable with a format, they have to be shooting for a while first when they figure it out and see what they can do with it.

But when the DSLR noob's in the camera store looking to plonk down a serious bundle on a new DSLR, they're gonna be the next Helmut friggin' Newton, baby, and will want to be able to get "pro-level" gear ASAP.

That's how you get new customers. Sad but true: a lot of people DO believe you've gotta have the big stuff to shoot decent pictures, which isn't true. But again, you don't figure that one out until you've had a camera in your hands for a while.

Of course, there are those of us who want our fast fifties digitised...
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