Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
09-13-2009, 07:27 AM   #106
Inactive Account




Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rochester, NY
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 119
KM in DS format

As much as the KM appeals to me, personally I'd like to see something along the lines of a K200d in a *DS body. No top LCD was a bit of a let down, while the old DS was somewhere in between the two as far as sizing went. A few more physical controls for metering and ISO would be nice too without having to dive into menus.

09-13-2009, 07:53 AM   #107
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,267
QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
I would personally welcome a move to a two-camera line-up, since this might free up resources for some other project (645D, for example). Trying to beat all comers on value and distinguish between three cameras in a semi-pro and hobbyist line-up (I'm talking marketing categories, not what I think the cameras are actually good for) is a losing battle.

The K-x and K-7 could have basically the same image engine (why produce two at additional cost?), but the K-7 would add:
* video
* weather sealing
* faster buffer
* top LCD
* and perhaps some other features (level, HDR, etc.)

This would certainly be enough to distinguish them.

The interface should be the same between them, encouraging those with one body to buy another. The differences in interfaces between the different models in the line-up is a major sticking point for me.

Leave the confusing line-up and annoying upgrade path to Canon. Pentax should go for simplicity.
That would be OK for me except Pentax will (IMO) never put HyperProgram/Two wheels on its lowest end body (wish to be wrong here).

QuoteOriginally posted by libbyh Quote
As much as the KM appeals to me, personally I'd like to see something along the lines of a K200d in a *DS body. No top LCD was a bit of a let down, while the old DS was somewhere in between the two as far as sizing went. A few more physical controls for metering and ISO would be nice too without having to dive into menus.
I understand that but the K-m is already VERY small. Smaller would mean no SR. That would be really bad.
09-13-2009, 08:43 AM   #108
Veteran Member
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,863
I am not sure that Pentax has a three line dSLR strategy, or ever had.

Initially, there was the
- *istD/*istDS/*istDL/*istDS2/*istDL2 line
and the S/L distinction was marginal.

Then, with the release of K10D, the line split in two, with
- K100D/K100DS/K110D/K200D on the lower end and
- K10D/K20D on the higher end
where K20D and K200D were released simultaneously.

Now, both lines have been superseded by
- K-m/K-x on the lower end and
- K-7/... on the higher end
with a 6 month alternating release cycle.

I'm not sure I can see a third line here. If at all, it would fork off at the high end at some time in the future.
09-13-2009, 09:57 AM   #109
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: on the wall
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 715
It would be nice to be able to take more than one image in delay mode.

09-13-2009, 03:38 PM   #110
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,922
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I am not sure that Pentax has a three line dSLR strategy, or ever had.

Initially, there was the
- *istD/*istDS/*istDL/*istDS2/*istDL2 line
and the S/L distinction was marginal.

Then, with the release of K10D, the line split in two, with
- K100D/K100DS/K110D/K200D on the lower end and
- K10D/K20D on the higher end
where K20D and K200D were released simultaneously.

Now, both lines have been superseded by
- K-m/K-x on the lower end and
- K-7/... on the higher end
with a 6 month alternating release cycle.

I'm not sure I can see a third line here. If at all, it would fork off at the high end at some time in the future.
Maybe not, but the price points demand 3models at least.

The K7 is radically over-priced compared t the KM/2000, so the K200D is the sweet spot price point accounting for almost 60% of all DSLR sales with other vendors (last I looked). This is dynamic (favouring the low-end) but a pretty steady trend.

Where I am the price difference between the two (body only) is US $ 1,000. That's a lot of market room. Hence the rumours of the K20D demise, but the K200D is still around.

Now, it might work better for Pentax to up the KM/2000 offering similar to what Nikon did with the D40/D40x, but that seems unlikely; a lot of engineering and production wrestling small market gains. They'd spend more trying to differentiate than they'd make. Still, this is what Oly appears to be doing.

Also, the Pentax lens system demands a middle rank, what with WR kit lenses now, plus the 2 mid-level (17-70, 16-45) offerings.
09-13-2009, 05:50 PM   #111
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,922
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I opt to disagree.

IMHO, Pentax is not that big that it should have more than two lines.


In general, I really dislike the mentality behind the attempt to fill every possible market niche with cumbersome product feature combinations. I like the "Apple" approach with a few, clearly separated models and easy to understand and stable pricing. It doesn't help mankind to combine thousands of prices, price options, colors, features, to just find out that in the end, everything is the same. Extremely painful in hotel booking options, flight reservations and mobile phone tariffs.

Who says that three is better than two?

I would accept three if to satisfy three divergent visions, like, as mobile, as high IQ, as fast as possible. But not just for the sake of having three price points.
The difference between the K20D and K200D was not so great. They even used the same marketing brochure.

Now, the difference between the 2 most recent models is extreme. That creates a no-man's land where the bulk of sales are. There is no way someone looking at the $1,000 maximum budget is going to grab the K-7, and the KM/2000 has too shy a feature set. They're off to the Tl1 or the D5000. The latter's body is already sub-$500 and some deals on lens kits put it only $100 more than a KM/2000. That's an easy upsell at Pentax's expense. The T1i is dropping into the same range. The K200D cannot compete, and the K20D discounted cannot compete. Nice cams both, but a generation too old to hold their ground (sorry, it's true). Current thrifty Pentaxians may cycle up to the K20D from older models, but new buyers to the DSLR market.

You're right, why have 3 when you can have 2, but Pentax created the feature and price point gap. The upped the K20D and downed the K200D. And now they need something in between or a KM/2000 replacement that is significantly more camera than the current KM.

And it's going to need video (if the howls about the Nikon D3000 are to judge). This is the new "must have" or the units will not sell. I have already seen pre-Christmas copy where the entire story is on DSLR videomaking. If you do not have video, the other guy will get your sales. (Note: Every major brand is now working furiously to get auto-AF video lenses into their lineup).

The other option Pentax has is to drop the K-7 price. I've followed Amazon and it's already down a fair bit. If they sub-US$1,000 the body, that might do it. That would buy time to narrow that gap with a KM/2000 replacement, post-Christmas, with some oomph!

You cannot have a $1,000 price gap in this market. That's too much money on the table.
09-13-2009, 06:03 PM   #112
Veteran Member
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,863
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
a KM/2000 replacement that is significantly more camera than the current KM.
@Aristophanes, sorry, I deleted my post (too OT). And you're right. It could be done with two lines only. Maybe, a better K-m is cheaper for Pentax than a third line
09-13-2009, 06:10 PM   #113
Pentaxian
Clarkey's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brampton, ON, Canada
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,767
I agree with the post above. Whether by design of default, there has been a three camera line-up for the last year at least, and prior to that, there was in the days where there weren't too many cameras on the market at all D - Ds - Dl.

I've been saying elsewhere that the K200D replacement is likely the most important segment of the market. If we are going to a two cam line-up Pentax needs to compete at a level higher than the rumoured K-m replacement.

The mid-range level needs to be over-specified in the best tradition of Pentax. By that I mean competitive sensor, great ergonomics, top plate, pentaprism viewer and above all, compact (the K200d in my regard is too big). Add weather sealed to that now that the bar has been raised. JPGs HAVE to be good.

Most folks interested in this market segment are not working pros. They are (very broadly) either travellers, folks out for a walk in the garden or people taking pictures of families. They tend to be enthusiasts like the majority of people on this forum. I believe that a similar market segment is the D70/80/90 nikon. Which is also a market educated segment who knows how to read website reviews (and we all know how fair they are to Pentax).

I can't afford $1300 for a K7 right now, but I would pay $800 for a K20d shoehorned into a DS sized body with a pentaprism and weathersealed. Make it the size of the K-m and i'm definitely interested. Video would be nice, but given the success of the E620, is not essential.

09-13-2009, 06:15 PM   #114
Pentaxian
Clarkey's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brampton, ON, Canada
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,767
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The difference between the K20D and K200D was not so great. They even used the same marketing brochure.
Snip
You cannot have a $1,000 price gap in this market. That's too much money on the table.
If you mean feature gap between K20d and K200d I agree - as for the price - I picked up a new K200d for less than $600 CDN two months after release when the K20d was still running at $1100.

And I absolutely agree with your last comment.
09-13-2009, 11:00 PM   #115
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,254
It would be very interesting if Pentax can offer 2 cameras in K-m body.
1. The One with WR.
2. The Second without WR, but with tilt and swivel LCD.
09-14-2009, 05:52 PM   #116
Forum Member




Join Date: May 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 76
A two model strategy fits into the overall strategy if you take the 645D as the pro model and the K7 class and the KM class as mid and low tier models. Can't wait to see what gets into the new KM replacement and the 645D as well.

09-14-2009, 05:55 PM   #117
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,922
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
@Aristophanes, sorry, I deleted my post (too OT). And you're right. It could be done with two lines only. Maybe, a better K-m is cheaper for Pentax than a third line
All the K-M needs is:

1) Articulating LCD
2) Faster AF
3) 720p video (and live view of course)
4) WR like the K200D
5) AF assist lamp
6) Orientation sensor

and for catching the reviewers eye:

7) Horizon sensor because no one else has that

Yes, this will require the K-7 sensor. So what? The Pentax advantage is in-body IS, great ergonomics, AA batteries, WR, WR lenses, lots of legacy glass, and not being the other guys.

And this message board :-)

At some point Pentax has to cannibalize its higher end a bit to compete. Ironically, Pentax might be better off with a single DSLR body, the K-7, at a substantial discount. Then they could make the K-M variant something more like the EP-1, maybe restricted to DA lenses only—a pancake lens specialist. Even Thom Hogan sees this as a trend with legs.

Deleting assembly lines saves a fortune. The K-7 and successors would have to feature match Canikon, but for less $$$. Let them duke it out on price points, so long as Pentax stays well ahead at a single, profitable price point of body + ket lens of US$899. A set-up like that (40% off current rates) would eclipse Canikon by price and feature set—a D90, 7D killer. You can see this is where Panasonic is going.

It would also simplify the review process, which is a HUGE factor in sales and marketing these days. A single DSLR camera body updated every year would get far more reviews from the #5 manufacturer than trying to compete with 2-3 models against the other guys 5 models and variants therein with mid-year updates. This is how Apple, Flip, Nintendo, and RIM do it, and succeed. Fewer models, sharp differentiation, exciting review cycle, and simplified production. It would also look good against M4/3 where the real growth lies.

Then Pentax can re-enter the MF market with a fantastically priced product that makes a lot of FF people go huh!? Price profitably above the Canon high-end, but well below a RED and they're looking good.

And the K-8 would have 1080p video with a separate processor, dual-SD, articulating high-quality LCD, even better AF, and a new DA lens that worked like the Panny 14-140 with silent video AF. Priced at $1199 before Christmas, and by July is down to $899, just in time to stoke excitement for the next model, with more resources to develop lenses, like a sub-$400 killer WA, the bane of APS-C.

I'm just thinking like a marketer, moving resources to where the profits are.
09-14-2009, 08:18 PM   #118
Senior Member
eyou's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 224
they must have video to compete. all the big names have it in their entry levels (except d3000). the most popular dlsr on flickr is rebel so this is a huge market to compete for.

Video & weather sealing would be great for an entry level camera. I'm still waiting for this announcement or I might buy k-7 when it gets much lower....
09-14-2009, 09:58 PM   #119
Veteran Member
Eruditass's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,206
Just out of curiosity, how long does it take from when a camera is announced to when I can order it and receive it?

If the new camera adds some of what I want, I want a production model in my hands as soon as humanly possible. Don't disappoint me, Pentax!
09-15-2009, 03:05 AM   #120
Veteran Member
rparmar's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,783
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Horizon sensor because no one else has that
Nikon D700?
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
k-m, pentax news, pentax rumors
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Replacement for FA43mm Ltd ? Frogfish Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 11 04-22-2010 07:52 AM
FA 50mm/1.4 replacement? yusuf Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 14 04-21-2010 09:08 PM
Should I get a replacement? unleaded_gasoline Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 3 02-11-2010 02:49 PM
K-7 Replacement as4ronin Pentax DSLR Discussion 11 09-16-2009 08:09 PM
What is the best replacement.... Buddha Jones Pentax DSLR Discussion 11 04-03-2007 06:03 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:18 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top