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05-17-2007, 06:00 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by NaClH2O Quote
I really don't understand the large amount of antipathy towards Hoya. They have never said they would sell the imaging division. What they said in December was (paraphrase and italics mine) "If the imaging division loses money we will sell it" Right now it is one of the best performing divisions, why would they want to sell it? It even compliments their optical glass making division. I personally have always thought that a Hoya/Pentax merger would be good for Pentax, it gives them some deep R&D pockets which they could certainly use. I know next to nothing about Japanese businesses, but I know people who know A LOT and to a person they all feel that the merger is a good one for both companies.

NaCl(but we'll see)H2O
Actually, if I remember correctly (that is always a big question) it was not profit but the fact it may "underperform" based of course on HOYA standards was the more direct quote. Heck if the camera division continued to lose money I'd even junk it (Pentax losing money on film SLR's gee go figure). Anyways, what's good for Pentax/Hoya may not be good for us "bit players" here. I have no doubt Hoya is good for Pentax, it's the direction this leads that is questionable. Considering the DSLR market as a whole (well Pentax at least), this does NOT fit into what Hoya considers a decent return..... based on their own history. They want to concentrate on high return areas (which IS good business sense) but being small as Pentax was, even small profits help the overall picture. My cloudy crystal balls says that if DSLR NET profits are not above 10% (which can be gotton how? Hoya helps this how? Cheaper optical blanks at their expense?) they won't be happy. Pentax history HAD protected them from this hard decision which in reality and if they were like most companies, would have stopped making cameras YEARS ago.
I think sometimes we forget that or don't really want to see that. I hope I'm wrong but don't really see it any other way. Going head to head w/ Canon et. al. is not really the Hoya way as far as I can see........Pentax better make damn good cameras quick and cheap and sell a whole boatload....... or they will end up in the bargain bin. Gloom and doom, maybe but we do have a few years to work with.
The last key annoyance is Pentax FINALLY woke up and began producing DSLR (and not just totally mediocre ones at that which would have encouraged me to say "goodbye" and I'd be singing the praises of a Sigma SD10 ) only to have their company "diluted" by Urano and SPARX. BTW: who canned the "prototype" DSLR? Urano? Put them years behind the curve. Then again, even if Hoya/Pentax gives up camera bodies I suppose they could concentrate on becoming a "3rd party" lens vendor ala Tokina/Sigma.
Maybe this whole thing was "hatched" in Vietnam during Pentax plant construction...
Vietnam Investment Review - Timeout


Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-17-2007 at 07:22 PM.
05-17-2007, 08:32 PM   #17
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We are all guessing but

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Actually, if I remember correctly (that is always a big question) it was not profit but the fact it may "underperform" based of course on HOYA standards was the more direct quote. Heck if the camera division continued to lose money I'd even junk it (Pentax losing money on film SLR's gee go figure). Anyways, what's good for Pentax/Hoya may not be good for us "bit players" here. I have no doubt Hoya is good for Pentax, it's the direction this leads that is questionable. Considering the DSLR market as a whole (well Pentax at least), this does NOT fit into what Hoya considers a decent return..... based on their own history.
My gut feeling is the same as yours. They simply dont strike me as a risk taking company and they certainly dont sell much to the public. Its all components and raw materials to the trade. Cameras anhd retail goods are totally at odds with their portfolio.

I hope to be proven wrong - I certainly am very often wrong when it comes to my personal financial situation - so I would not take any notice of my opinion!
05-17-2007, 08:35 PM   #18
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When I began as a Pentax customer in the late '70's, the company was a major player in the SLR market. Pentax displays in camera and department stores were as large and impressive as those of their competitors, you could find Pentax cameras and lenses everywhere (even small mom and pop stores), the company was a technical leader, and Pentax offered a complete line of lenses and related gear. Over the last thirty years, the company has squandered that position; although their offerings are still reasonably differentiated (at least for consumer products), the company is now a marginal player, the Pentax camera division has had a fairly long history of unimpressive financial results (not withstanding the very recent uptick), Pentax is not the technical leader of old, and their lens offerings, while generally good performers, are limited and only sporadically available.

As a result, I'm not particularly excited about the geniuses that accomplished this remarkable feat staying in control of the development and marketing of Pentax cameras and lenses. Maybe Hoya or Samsung can't do the job either, but surely someone can do a better job than the current crowd.

Jer
05-18-2007, 02:12 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Actually, if I remember correctly (that is always a big question) it was not profit but the fact it may "underperform" based of course on HOYA standards was the more direct quote. Heck if the camera division continued to lose money I'd even junk it (Pentax losing money on film SLR's gee go figure). Anyways, what's good for Pentax/Hoya may not be good for us "bit players" here. I have no doubt Hoya is good for Pentax, it's the direction this leads that is questionable. Considering the DSLR market as a whole (well Pentax at least), this does NOT fit into what Hoya considers a decent return..... based on their own history. They want to concentrate on high return areas (which IS good business sense) but being small as Pentax was, even small profits help the overall picture. My cloudy crystal balls says that if DSLR NET profits are not above 10% (which can be gotton how? Hoya helps this how? Cheaper optical blanks at their expense?) they won't be happy. Pentax history HAD protected them from this hard decision which in reality and if they were like most companies, would have stopped making cameras YEARS ago.
I think sometimes we forget that or don't really want to see that. I hope I'm wrong but don't really see it any other way. Going head to head w/ Canon et. al. is not really the Hoya way as far as I can see........Pentax better make damn good cameras quick and cheap and sell a whole boatload....... or they will end up in the bargain bin. Gloom and doom, maybe but we do have a few years to work with.
The last key annoyance is Pentax FINALLY woke up and began producing DSLR (and not just totally mediocre ones at that which would have encouraged me to say "goodbye" and I'd be singing the praises of a Sigma SD10 ) only to have their company "diluted" by Urano and SPARX. BTW: who canned the "prototype" DSLR? Urano? Put them years behind the curve. Then again, even if Hoya/Pentax gives up camera bodies I suppose they could concentrate on becoming a "3rd party" lens vendor ala Tokina/Sigma.
Maybe this whole thing was "hatched" in Vietnam during Pentax plant construction...
Vietnam Investment Review - Timeout
Becoming another Sigma isn't such a crazy idea, they also have their own bodies, but benefit from huge sales of lenses to the major players. Imagine what the economy of scale could do to Pentax lens prices and/or profitability.

Maybe "the alternative plan" is for Pentax to buy out tiny Tokina (they are NOT owned by Hoya) and that way expand the business. Pentax own Tokina and sell 3rd party and also have their own "premier" brand.

I feel it has as much milage as any of the tripe I've read recently coming from Pentax/Hoya/Sparx and the financial/business press reports.

05-18-2007, 07:22 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
Becoming another Sigma isn't such a crazy idea, they also have their own bodies, but benefit from huge sales of lenses to the major players. Imagine what the economy of scale could do to Pentax lens prices and/or profitability.

Maybe "the alternative plan" is for Pentax to buy out tiny Tokina (they are NOT owned by Hoya) and that way expand the business. Pentax own Tokina and sell 3rd party and also have their own "premier" brand.

I feel it has as much milage as any of the tripe I've read recently coming from Pentax/Hoya/Sparx and the financial/business press reports.

HI, I often wondered why they didn't take this path, I saw the answer with lens shortages after k10d, but of course that could all be different and hoya picking up tokina doesn't seem that unrealistic. I would think there is a lot of ex pentax canon / nikon shooters who would happily buy pentax lenses, particularly the limiteds etc.

oh well, we just wait and see

Phil
05-18-2007, 08:24 AM   #21
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Nice idea

QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
Becoming another Sigma isn't such a crazy idea, they also have their own bodies, but benefit from huge sales of lenses to the major players. Imagine what the economy of scale could do to Pentax lens prices and/or profitability.

Maybe "the alternative plan" is for Pentax to buy out tiny Tokina (they are NOT owned by Hoya) and that way expand the business. Pentax own Tokina and sell 3rd party and also have their own "premier" brand.

I feel it has as much milage as any of the tripe I've read recently coming from Pentax/Hoya/Sparx and the financial/business press reports.
However the Japanese are as likely to "band together" in a close cooperative as they are to actually buy each other out or hold large stakes. This is however changing in Japan to follow the US model, where institutional investors prefer to see all the eggs in one portfolio and would prefer it merged.

It would certainly make a lot of sense financially for Pentax/Tokina to combine forces and produce quality 3rd party and K mount lenses. They are probably both too small on their own to compete with Sigma and Tamron and this is a neat solution. Integration with Hoya as a provider of blanks would improve their cost model even more.

I just hope passionately that Hoya keep their nerve and invest in the SLR range to keep the R&D, development, marketing and production levels at or above the critical mass needed to compete. This has always been a Pentax weakness. Its hard to get share without spending the money and the bill is not cheap. Canons marketing budget alone is probably larger than the whole of Pentax's Imaging division annual budget....
05-18-2007, 02:26 PM   #22
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Pentax got what it deserves...

I posted this in a related DPR News forum thread that degenerated into heated and pointless, IMO, debate about short term mechanics of current buyout (merger or whatever) and whom to blame for how bad it's being conducted.

Irrespective to SPARX, Urano, Hoya or new/old board current situation only shows that Pentax Camera totally failed as a division. This includes its marketing, products, engineering and strategy and ultimately they have nobody to blame but themselves on all levels. If Nikon was to be bought it would be mainly for its Camera division and not binoculars or medical or whatever. And hypothetical suitor in their right mind won't debate whether to dump Camera division or juts give it a little more to die on its own.

I still hold the position that with more professionally managed Hoya, Pentax cam division has more chances at survival than on its own, especially with current board. I won't shed tears for Furano as well. Both longtime previous and present management are to be blamed for the current miserable predicament.

Pentax Camera came to this pathetic fight for survival not as a result of good management and excellence in product and marketing. People should realize that recent very relative K10/100D success came too little too late. You can talk whatever you like about Pentax uniqueness, AA batteries, small size, Limited primes, SPARX villain, whatever. People either buy your products enough to sustain and expand operation, development and brand in a competitive marketplace or they don't. In latter case you either die (see Minolta) or let others try to fix you.
05-18-2007, 06:37 PM   #23
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Klopus, not so sure about your Nikon comment. About 5 years ago none of the top camera companies counted cameras as even 50% of total company sales. If I remember right Pentax was the highest at 48%. Digital might have changed it. Canon was very low- under 10%. Have heard that before digital Canon had considered jettisoning camera division. As Honda has considered dropping motorcycles/4 wheelers.
thanks
barondla

05-19-2007, 06:11 AM   #24
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I think the biggest problem pentax has had up till now is their marketing. How many cameras made by them would you give a bad review?
05-19-2007, 09:13 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by klopus Quote
I posted this in a related DPR News forum thread that degenerated into heated and pointless, IMO, debate about short term mechanics of current buyout (merger or whatever) and whom to blame for how bad it's being conducted.

Irrespective to SPARX, Urano, Hoya or new/old board current situation only shows that Pentax Camera totally failed as a division. This includes its marketing, products, engineering and strategy and ultimately they have nobody to blame but themselves on all levels. If Nikon was to be bought it would be mainly for its Camera division and not binoculars or medical or whatever. And hypothetical suitor in their right mind won't debate whether to dump Camera division or juts give it a little more to die on its own.

I still hold the position that with more professionally managed Hoya, Pentax cam division has more chances at survival than on its own, especially with current board. I won't shed tears for Furano as well. Both longtime previous and present management are to be blamed for the current miserable predicament.

Pentax Camera came to this pathetic fight for survival not as a result of good management and excellence in product and marketing. People should realize that recent very relative K10/100D success came too little too late. You can talk whatever you like about Pentax uniqueness, AA batteries, small size, Limited primes, SPARX villain, whatever. People either buy your products enough to sustain and expand operation, development and brand in a competitive marketplace or they don't. In latter case you either die (see Minolta) or let others try to fix you.

I think Pentax lost the lead when the market changed to autofocus ...and the whole shift in what people wanted. They were just out of sync with the market at that point. They were trying to produce "consumer"cameras as opposed to "enthjusiasts"camera when the consumer had moved to P&S and Professional and PJs used used Lieca and Nikon cameras, at least till Canon introduced the EOS system and became the dominant brand. The were starting to come back with the MZ and badly named *ist series of 35mm camera's and then digital came along and they fell behind again. No doubt because they didn't have the R&D budget of the likes of Canon.

They are back on track now; building cameras for the enthusiast. Not the PJ or the masses ...leave that to the Nikon D40 and Canon Rebel. They will sell some in that market but need to realize the niche they apeal to and focus on that market.

I don't know the economics of that focus, but it seems to me that they will not unseat Canon in the Pro/PJ areana and will need to market their brand strongly to compete against the bottom end where consumers are moving up from P&S cameras.

Anyway, I am commited to the brand and hope they will continue to produce DSLR's like the K10D. Sorry for the rambeling on ...but I really liked my LX, MZs and now my K10D and am eagerly awaiting delivery of my new DA* lenses at the end of July. I am not jumping ship and hope/wish Pentax every success with they new boss, Hoya!

Mike
05-19-2007, 03:08 PM   #26
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Another Meeting

As I will be having another meeting late next week, I will see if I can squeeze out any concrete info about "stuff". If I do I'll share what I can with all of you..
05-19-2007, 07:09 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by anomaly Quote
I think the biggest problem pentax has had up till now is their marketing. How many cameras made by them would you give a bad review?
About the only prescient comment made so far in this passionate discussion of the murky world of mergers and acquisitions.

Certain Japanese companies came to understand marketing for western countries, the fundamental need for promotional campaigns, advertising, and especially dealer and retail sales management. Canon is one of these companies, Pentax is not. If you have opportunity to talk with camera or electronics retailer you get a clear picture why Canon sells 10x Pentax: nothing to do with the equipment or its price.
05-20-2007, 01:37 AM   #28
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Very Wise

QuoteOriginally posted by Donald Quote
About the only prescient comment made so far in this passionate discussion of the murky world of mergers and acquisitions.

Certain Japanese companies came to understand marketing for western countries, the fundamental need for promotional campaigns, advertising, and especially dealer and retail sales management. Canon is one of these companies, Pentax is not. If you have opportunity to talk with camera or electronics retailer you get a clear picture why Canon sells 10x Pentax: nothing to do with the equipment or its price.
Your observation IMO is so crystal clear and and simple, I took the liberty of sending it off to Pentax with the comment;

"A quote from Donald from pentaxforums.com. Why Pentax does not do as well as C &N...I agree!"

Ben
05-20-2007, 10:01 AM   #29
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The cow was pro heath! Pentax Good bye!
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05-20-2007, 10:20 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Your observation IMO is so crystal clear and and simple, I took the liberty of sending it off to Pentax with the comment;

"A quote from Donald from pentaxforums.com. Why Pentax does not do as well as C &N...I agree!"

Ben
Here in North America, Pentax introduced a new branding message at PMA that was applauded by all who commented ...even DP Review. Essentially they are targeting the enthusiast, who have allways been their principal market. I suspect the limitation is the budget they can allocate to this ...I see Nikon and Cannon on TV adds and media saturation. Pentax simply dosn't have that kind of cash to spend.

Still, the more we can inpress upon management that camera's don't sell themselves, no matter how good they are, the better for the brand.
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