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08-28-2009, 01:57 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by smc Quote
I hate to say it....but from a Pentax perspective, they need to release that FF with a new LTD line of lenses that either drop the K mount, or are optimized for the new camera. They need to start selling lenses and their really isn't a good enough reason to do so right now with 50 years of glass to choose from.
Why the need to drop the K-mount for a FF cam? The K mount has supported FF film cams from the beginning. It wouldn't be too onerous to start producing a new line of D-FA lenses to expand the range and keep FF users happy in the digital age.

08-28-2009, 02:09 PM   #17
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Why do you think they would do any that?
Does anything at the moment indicate the capability for them to do it instantly or is there any trend leading to FF?
They can't even fully support their APS-C line. Every new lens is a painsfull struggle that makes them discontinue some old good FF glass. What multple systems are we talking here.

On the other hand they are niche and have been making odd and unpractical stuff (like dark, loud and expensive "primes" for a handful of users) to the ordinary user often enough. Eventually they might make an orphan FF body for old yellow adopted takumars that bring them no profit.

I don't know if im not too negative in here, but after reading my post again, everything in it seems to be true.

Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 03:08 PM.
08-28-2009, 02:39 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
Why do you think they would do any that?
Does anything at the moment indicate the capability for them to do it instantly or is there any trend leading to FF?
They can't even fully support their APS-C line. Every new lens is a painsfull struggle that makes them discontinue some old good FF glass. What multple systems are we talking here.

On the other hand they are niche and have been making odd and unpractical stuff (like dark, loud and expensive "primes" for a handful of users) to the ordinary user often enough. Eventually they might make an orphan FF body for old yellow adopted takumars that bring them no profit.

I don't know if im not too negative in here, but after reading my post again, everything in it seems to be true.
Does Pentax have to have a line of D-FAs available *now* to be able to support the FF model, whenever it's coming....? Is it so hard for D-FAs to come out at the time the FF is announced? Was there this kind of kneejerk reaction when Pentax went digital and needed a whole new set of lenses to support those bodies?

Oh, who am I kidding? - Pentax is dead already.... everyone's been saying so for years...
08-28-2009, 02:46 PM   #19
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If samsung make a FF camera.. I wouldn't be surprised if it has a new mount aka NX.. not the K mount! As having a Pentax K mount would kill sales of any glass that samsung are planning to make... Samsung know that Sony make there money on the glass..

If Pentax do make an FF.. They would have to make a line of DFA glass.. And for people to buy the DFA glass have to drop the FA and older contacts of the mount! OK you can put your old FF glass on a future FF cam from Pentax, but it will only work in croped mode without apature control! We are already seeing this with the K-7 only having CA & lens correction on DA glass!


Last edited by Adrian Owerko; 08-28-2009 at 02:55 PM.
08-28-2009, 02:52 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Why the need to drop the K-mount for a FF cam? The K mount has supported FF film cams from the beginning. It wouldn't be too onerous to start producing a new line of D-FA lenses to expand the range and keep FF users happy in the digital age.
agreed. they would in no way need to drop the K mount to go FF.

I think a lot of you people are so wrong about the market. I cant say what 'sells' and what doesn't concerning image. but I do know for a fact that having a FF wont 'save' Pentax. APS-C generates more sales (volume wise) probably revenue as well, than FF does. and this goes for everyone (except those who are using sub APS-C of course.) yes FF is getting cheaper. (of course Sony and their cameras cant be reliable price point comparison as they are both a sensor and camera manufacturer) but that doesn't mean that FF will become the 'norm' or absolutely needed to stay afloat. you really think people getting into photography can afford even an entry level FF camera? no. the majority of current digital SLR buyers want a smaller lighter camera. the gap between the behemoths of the "pro" world and the rest is widening rapidly. just look at cameras like the G11 and the PEN. the entire camera world is shifting and customers are taking notice. there are way too many "pro" wannabees here and you don't represent what the majority of sales will be for a camera company. what Pentax is doing is unique. the problem isnt APS-C bodies, the problem isn't APS-C lenses. the problem is not having the funds to get themselves in the public's eye. if FF is the way to go then why the hell is Olympus not playing the game? is anyone yelling they need FF or they will die! no. and not to many people are complaining about 4/3 and micro 4/3 now are they?
08-28-2009, 03:05 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
....
Oh, who am I kidding? - Pentax is dead already.... everyone's been saying so for years...
....

Im not saying Pentax is dead. Im confused about this full frame worship.
You have spectacular images in your gallery. Taken with an "inferior" APS-C camera that has no future and sooner or later must be replaced with some "REAL" format.

I dont think so.
There is not enough objective reasons for current APS-C level cameras to be replaced by FF unless APS-C gets used in compacts.

Or else you'd get a gap where FF's starting DSLRS at 1000$ and 4/3u, compacts, other weird concepts ending at 500$. Manufacturers want to a way leech the money in-between, by continuing endless upgrades and making as much segmentation as possible.

There are, for example already been serious discussions how much better the 40D IQ is vs 400D. Manufacturers don't like such talks. They want you to buy 400d, make you think its not enough and upgrade to 40d without a doubt it will be making better pictures.

It is more likely that they will get more merged with the upper levels of compact cameras than get replaced with FF. Something along the lines of disappearing OVF's, decreasing register distances and different body form factors, better universal/ultrazoom lenses. Making it more cluttered and possible to generate endless combinations of functionality and price.

And if more closer to reality. When they went digital they replaced ONE line of lenses, ONE system (btw after almost 10 years they are not quite over yet.. take the same normal fast prime for example). By making an FF it would not be a replacement. They would have to support TWO slightly overlapping (like one point five ) systems. This would make lens production and available range for each system even more limited. And take the price of 60-250, how much it would cost for FF?

Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 03:17 PM.
08-28-2009, 03:14 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Venturi Quote
That's really not a valid argument. Even "way back in the day" - you know the 70s and 80s - $200 didn't buy much of, if any, new film SLR and lens combo. And $200 went a whole lot further at the cash register than it does today. SLR photography has never been about affordability; historically some brands have simply been less painful in the wallet than others.
I bought a new MX in 1983 for less than $200, and a top-of-the-line LX in 1984 for $400. According to a cost of living chart, the average yearly wage in 1983-1984 was around 1/3 of 2009, so the entry level MX would be under $600, and the more advanced LX would be $1200, almost exactly in line with the K2000 and the K-7. But you could keep film cameras for decades, and there are still people shooting with those old bodies. But a typical DSLR enthusiast is on a 2 to 3 year upgrade cycle, so unless you spent a *lot* on film, photography is probably much more expensive now than in the 35mm film days. And that doesn't even consider the computer side of the equation, which is on a rapid upgrade system too. In a declining economy, I see a future with a lot of ex-photography enthusiasts.
08-28-2009, 03:17 PM   #23
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QuoteQuote:
It is more likely that they will get more merged with the upper levels of compact cameras than get replaced with FF. Something along the lines of disappearing OVF's, decreasing register distances and different body form factors, better universal/ultrazoom lenses. Making it more cluttered and possible to generate endless combinations of functionality and price.
this is something I have been watching very closely. currently we really only have two segments. DSLR and P&S. now to us, we know there is a difference between DSLR's and even a difference between P&S's. but to the majority of people (particularly the new customers) DSLR still means "pro" or "high end" where the P&S is what the masses use. this is now changing. and camera companies are looking to both new and old designs to create market segments that are new or reiterations of old. (the current rebirth of the rangefinder and rangefinder style for example) Pentax has only known one kind of camera. SLR. so this is an odd time for Pentax. I think they are doing some very smart things in terms of lens design (something neither canon nor nikon can really claim) and I think APS-C is a viable option, I just wonder where the SLR will be in terms of majority market share in say 5-10 years, and where will this leave Pentax? I think FF isn't the question. SLR is.

08-28-2009, 03:28 PM   #24
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Interesting thaughts. Initially it seems that FF may stay as professional SLR.
But on the other hand it is obselete professionaly aswell.
With the new, relatively cheap video support, reporters and those who need fast operation may go video route. Imagine with increasing memory sizes and quality of still images you could just film the whole event and peacefully extract the best/needed frames afterwards.

For studio photographers, why not have a tethered system with a instant 22" HD preview. No bending, long eye winking. Sensor size and form factor gets less important, camera is just the imaging module of the system. At the same LCD you'd adjust lights, exposure settings, could easily order various nested bracketing's or other sick stuff.

Nature photographers could opt for something smaller, lighter, more rugged with great dynamic range and resolution. Mirrorless 645 maybe. Sometimes i've had a thoughts of designs where the lenses are main parts and the camera part consists only of sensor, LCD, generic controls and power source. Everything else is lens tailored for maximum performance (shutter, motors, metering, af system). Many lenses cost more than DSLR anyway.

Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 03:34 PM.
08-28-2009, 03:47 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Why the need to drop the K-mount for a FF cam? The K mount has supported FF film cams from the beginning. It wouldn't be too onerous to start producing a new line of D-FA lenses to expand the range and keep FF users happy in the digital age.
Screw mount has supported full frame from the beginning.....not the K mount. I'm sure there were more than a few that were furious with Pentax when they introduced the K mount....especially if you had just purchased a premium Takumar. You could still use it once the adapters came out but it the aperature pin was no longer used.

I'd be disappointed if the K mount was dropped...but not surprised. I'd prefer if we could still use the older lenses, but lets face it, much of the newer glass won't work (fully) with a FF camera, k mount or not.
08-28-2009, 04:07 PM   #26
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I guess I don't quite understand why newer K-mount glass can't be made to work on FF cams. FA lenses have been made to support it, I don't see why D-FAs can't be made in the same vein - the formula's already there for those discontinued FA lenses like the 35 f/2 and 24 f/2.8...

One thing that does sound like will happen is that APS-C cams will fall in price considerably with the advent of sub $2000 FF cams, but it does not say much about the quality of the cams coming out...
08-28-2009, 05:52 PM   #27
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Pentax needs to produce a good FF camera that prioritizes pictures first and gimmicks second to help with brand recognition. They may not sell a lot of them, but it will help to sell their other camera lines in a big way.
I think this comment hits the nail right on the head. Most people out their are exposed to camera brands through the media (and advertising) and what brand is the most often seen been used by professionals and sports photographers? Canon. So when they go to buy a DSLR they immediately equate Canon with quality and professionalism. Plus if Canon or NIkon keen telling the public they are the best people start beleiving it regardless of the facts. It is the same with the ipod and the iphone. Having said all that I don't think Pentax are going to move in that direction until the rest of the market does. It is obvious that most DSLR's will be FF sometime in the future and at the speed things change these days, that might be sooner than we think.
08-28-2009, 06:02 PM   #28
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The newer K-mount glass can be made to work on FF SLR's.

As far as I know, all of Pentax's longer lenses work fine on FF. I understand the 60-250 works on a FF camera. I have seen photos using the new 55 1.4 on FF.

The lenses that do not work are the short ones. The DA zooms will vinette under about 24mm. I think the DA 40mm ltd is the shortest that will cover full frame.

As to expecting Pentax to bring out a FF camera? This is something I no longer expect. I used to. But I don't think Pentax will ever go FF.

I think Pentax is about to become a niche player providing small compact high quality DSLR's with small compact limited lenses. Only advanced amature stuff.

The thing that I really don't understand, is that some time back, a Pentax executive said that Pentax was going to continue to push APS-C technology for better and better image quality. Pentax was pushing the idea that there is no need to go with a larger sensor to get better image quality because APS-C still has a way to go.

Then they released the K-7. It produces the same image quality as the K20D. So, did they max out the image quality already? Additionally, it looks like Canon's 50D has hit the wall with image quality. So where is the improved image quality that Pentax exec promissed?
08-28-2009, 06:30 PM   #29
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Samsung is a chip maker. They will make a FF sensor most likely and will probably sell it to anyone who wants it. They may make their own FF camera. Samsung appears to be heading in their own direction. Pentax has stated that they have no plans to go FF anytime in the forseeable future so I fail to see why so many are expecting them to introduce one. If the industry goes in that direction and the big guys stop making DSLR's with aps/c sensors then they will probably be forced to but for now I take them at their word.
08-28-2009, 06:38 PM   #30
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Why does Pentax have to be the one to make the camera? How many K1000 ripoffs have you seen in ads for new? What about lens makers with lenses in a K-mount? If someone like Fuji wanted to build a kickass camera without support from Nikon, they'd build a FF camera body with the superCCD and a Pentax mount. There would not be a question about lens support - there's tons of great glass out there for cheap. It would be an instant success and not a dollar going to Pentax....
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