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08-30-2009, 07:55 AM   #76
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arriving a bit late to this debate

To address the original question: Why do people keep hoping for a Pentax FF camera against all logic and evidence? Because they have invested in the Pentax system and brand and would love to be able to extend their techniques and abilities from APS-C to full-frame. That is all.

QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
There's definitely a possibility that either Samsung or Pentax will venture into the FF market. There may be a reason why they have not stopped selling D-FA macros, the FA 50mm, and the FF limited primes.
Actually, they have stopped making the FA Limiteds and FA50, from some reports. In any case, they presence of older model FF lenses does not argue for the fact a FF camera is coming. They are simply older models still on the market.

QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
It will only be a matter of time before full frame is the norm in all DSLR's so Samsung and Pentax need to either make them or jump ship.
Why? A smaller sensor will always be cheaper and smaller. So the cameras can be cheaper and smaller. Not to mention various advantages of the cropped sensor. It seems to me that if a variety of point'n'shoot sensors can exist and find a market then so can APS-C. The evidence is right in front of you: APS-C cameras sell 10x or more than full-frame.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
What I don't understand is why, if a small sensor is such a good idea, we are not all using 4/3 format or smaller?
Most people do. So maybe all we need is point'n'shoot? No, I don't think so. People shoot cameras they are comfortable with, to get the quality they require. For some this is small sensor, cropped sensor, full-frame, medium format... why can these not all exist to serve different markets?

Remember that this holy grail, full-frame, was introduced originally as an amateur format. Want a "professional" system? Go out and shoot medium or large format.

Heck, I know I will.

08-30-2009, 08:06 AM   #77
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and some off-topic replies

QuoteOriginally posted by Venturi Quote
The reason lens sales suck is (let's be honest now) the current lineup isn't complete.
Do lens sales suck? Is this the reason? I disagree.

A lens line-up is never complete, not even if you are Nikon. Maybe Canon can be said to have a complete range, yours for the price of a house. But who cares about completeness? I buy the lenses I need and Pentax has these. If they don't then some other k-mount manufacturer does. Besides what is in the current range, one cannot deny that the used market exists and provides many hundreds of alternatives.

QuoteOriginally posted by Venturi Quote
The only reason the A* and FA* 85/1.4 are so desirable and pull the money they do on the used market is because there is no modern equivalent.
Actually I think it is fetishism, pure and simple.

The DA*55/1.4 is designed as the replacement. But, yes, some will say it is not the same since it is off by 2.5mm equivalent. The FA77 is actually a better all-around lens than these mythic 85mm models, but some will argue that the partial stop difference disqualifies it, or that the focal length does as well (ignoring the fact that 105mm, 200mm etc. were used for portraits on film, not just 85mm).

If one wants a great portrait lens Pentax has them. If one wants nothing but the A* and FA* 85 then one can buy them used. If one wants a cheap 85mm on a full-frame camera then yes, you will have to buy something other than Pentax. C'est la vie.

QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
You are comparing some M lens with improper metering, no camera communication and little better than average quality to Zeiss?
I will be happy to compare them. Zeiss have excellent build and optics and double the appropriate price due to the brand name, despite manual focus. Older Pentax glass has excellent build and optics with discount prices because they are old and not auto-focus. MTF tests, bokeh comparisons etc. have never demonstrated to me that Zeiss are superior to Pentax glass, which is and has always been first rate.

(I shot Zeiss on film with a Contax body, whenever I could borrow this from a friend. Many years ago.)
08-30-2009, 08:21 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
What is more important, that Pentax have several times clearly stated that they are sticking to APS-C. All their lenses are crop designs (even if some can [barely] cover full frame). So why are so many people expecting it and moaning about Pentax not making one.
I don't see Canon or Nikon users asking for in-body stabilization that often, for example.

Maybe it isn't that simple to others, than it seems to me, but why wait for something that is known to not happen if there are other options?
As loing as they don't have a FF camera in hand, they will likely continue to indicate that they are "sticking to APS-C." If you recall, you heard the same thing from Nikon for many years, and we all know what happened there. In addition, you are ignoring the caveat they add to such statements, i.e., the "in two years, who knows?" comments.

QuoteOriginally posted by nixcamic Quote
Because Samsung said they were going to start making FF sensors, and theres that rumored 85mm Samsung FF lens? Because people want FF to use their old lenses on but also want to stay brand loyal?
Indeed. Further, the more FF cameras get released, the more Pentax users who want FF will grow tired of the foot dragging and move to other brands.

QuoteOriginally posted by MikePerham Quote
When I made the switch to an DSLR from my MZ-S, I made the paradigm shift in thinking as well, I am not quite complete in replacing all my lenses, but have totally commited to the APS-C format and invested in the DA* series of lenses. Still waiting for something at the extreem wide angle end and mid tele macro.
I never made what I'd call a switch, since I still shoot film, nor can I ever bring myself to switch to a smaller format than FF. I already have a collection of lenses that I couldn't BEGIN to duplicate in APS-C angle of view equivalents, and since APS-C plays to the lower end of the market I would likely never see produced anyway. In any event, this is not a reason for Pentax not to make a FF camera, since there's still that body of shooters out there that owns those "50 million lenses" they tout having sold over the years.

QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
Do those old lenses become that bad and unusable on APS-C? Why aren't they expecting/requesting lenses with similar qualities ar APS-C focal lengths.

Don't you think much bigger inconvenience is searching unreliable and overpriced used markets for outdated lenses?

No wonder people does not get what they expect or Pentax doesn't respond to their whining, because they are expecting impossible (exaggerating here ). Why not wish for more reasonable and achievable things?
No, they are just not being used to their full potential, since the angles of view are all being clipped to "less than half frame" angles of view, which is irritating (almost as much so as looking through the pathetic APS-C viewfinders vs. those of the "outdated" film cameras). The lenses don't "go bad" just because they don't have AF, EXIF data transmission or other such bells and whistles, and are still perfectly capable of producing fine images. It is quite "achievable" for Pentax to produce a FF dSLR, they just need to overcome Hoya's ultra conservative market view.

QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
There's definitely a possibility that either Samsung or Pentax will venture into the FF market. There may be a reason why they have not stopped selling D-FA macros, the FA 50mm, and the FF limited primes. These will all be usable should they go to a full frame system.

It will only be a matter of time before full frame is the norm in all DSLR's so Samsung and Pentax need to either make them or jump ship. When full frame prices creep down to the $1000 range, it will be time to put up or shut up, won't it. There's rumors abound about $1600 full frame cameras on the horizon from other brands, so if Pentax can sell the APS K-7 for $300 less, they need to start upping the ante or they're doomed. No one is carrying them anymore, no adverts, and no exposure. Even Olympus and Panasonic DSLR ads are everywhere. They simply can't keep this up and stay profitable. They're only real saving grace is to come out with a full frame body, and soon!
Agreed. The idea that they are going to broaden their market base without having something to offer those interested in more than entry level or mid level cameras is ludicrous.
08-30-2009, 09:07 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
Don't expect the sensor to become much cheaper unless it takes completely different approach.

Different photosite design (ZnO nano tube for example), different production (qualitative smaller sensor stitching) etc can make it cheaper. Until that happens, manufacturers will be able to make better sensors, cheaper cameras (maybe FF pentaMIRROR and similar) and considering the new EVIL lines some significant improvement may happen to EVF much faster yielding some FF benefits obsolete. Not much about the sensor price.

Another factor is the form that FF tends to come in. They are bulky, complex photographing machines aimed at top price levels and pro or serious amateur users. Many need unobtrusive, reasonably priced, well built and fully functional unambitious daily tool. First one does not generate enough sales to creep into the entry level market. -Maybe this needs to be deleted. Lost my thought..
Sensors will continue to become cheaper as the manufacturing technology improves; the alleged cost differentials have been long exaggerated by a lack of competition in the FF dSLR market. This situation is happily improving. If you doubt that FF dSLRs will be able to become reasonably priced in the not too distant future, I invite you to look back at the history of APS-C dSLR pricing and how much cheaper the cameras have become.

Technology will never make FF benefits "obsolete," since larger formats will always have an advantage over smaller formats, based on optics, which never disappears regardless of the capture technology.

QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
Anyways im getting off topic again. So what makes so many people wait and expect FF. Not expect as they wanted one for any reason (old lenses, brand recognition, better user experience) but expect as thinking that Pentax could make one.
And why expect something that's not even promissed, if you can get one already?
Don't see what expectations or desires of Pentax have to do with availability "already" from other makes if what you're looking to do is use PK mount lenses on a FF dSLR (as opposed to buy all new cameras and lenses, which seems to be what you're suggesting).

QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Simply because the competition will eventually make that the common denominator as it was before. Eventually, APS-C will be relegated to the "entry level" market as APS-C was back in the film days.
I doubt Pentax will do this for another two years at least though...when you see the D700 come down to the $1200ish levels, I don't see there being much of a choice unless Pentax wants to keep play only in the $600-700 market where there probably is less margin than in their current $1200-1300 levels...
Agreed, particularly since APS-C has already hit an image quality wall vis-a-vis pixel count and noise. Since we've pretty much seen APS-C crammed with as many pixels as possible (probably more than desirable, in truth) there is an inexorable move to a larger format (i.e., FF) if continuing improvement in IQ is desired. As for any "technological" improvements, those will still be applied to the larger format as well, so no advantage can be gained.

QuoteOriginally posted by smc Quote
If you look at Pentax over the years....35mm was always amateur (except the LX). That was fine as they had 2 pro lines...the 645 and 67. During that time, they sold 3 sets of lenses each proprietary to 35, 645 or 67. Pentax was highly respected as a company with the engineering and know how to make whatever it wanted.

What are they now?....well they make a great mid range camera. They make sure to point out it is "semi-pro" and not pro. They are no longer looked upon as having the ability to step up and make something serious. The 645d will help but not if it is a "Japan only" novelty item.

Pentax needs to produce a good FF camera that prioritizes pictures first and gimmicks second to help with brand recognition. They may not sell a lot of them, but it will help to sell their other camera lines in a big way.

I hate to say it....but from a Pentax perspective, they need to release that FF with a new LTD line of lenses that either drop the K mount, or are optimized for the new camera. They need to start selling lenses and their really isn't a good enough reason to do so right now with 50 years of glass to choose from.
Don't agree that 35mm was "always amateur" even with the LX exception; look at the glass, much of which preceded the LX by many years, that was hardly targeted at an "amateur" market, e.g., 135-600 f 6.7, 1000 f 8, 2000 f 13.5 etc. Pentax USED TO have a 35mm system that was professional as well as amateur, they just unwisely abandoned it.

Agree that they are no longer looked at as a camera maker that can step up and make something serious.

Agree that they need a good FF camera that prioritizes pictures and not gimmicks.

Disagree strongly that they need to drop the K mount, as this would be the torpedo that sinks the boat for sure. Pentax's backward compatibility is one of the only reasons for its continued existence. I submit that it's more important that they sell camera bodies than lenses, as even in the past they didn't have a lock on lens sales for their cameras (third party lens makers always provided alternatives, in some cases more attractive alternatives than the camera makers themselves, and often still do). They can gradually introduce FF lenses that are chipped, include the latest bells and whistles and will provide "upgrade" sales as time goes on, they needn't have them ready from Day 1 to sell the cameras.

08-30-2009, 09:26 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adrian Owerko Quote
If samsung make a FF camera.. I wouldn't be surprised if it has a new mount aka NX.. not the K mount! As having a Pentax K mount would kill sales of any glass that samsung are planning to make... Samsung know that Sony make there money on the glass..

If Pentax do make an FF.. They would have to make a line of DFA glass.. And for people to buy the DFA glass have to drop the FA and older contacts of the mount! OK you can put your old FF glass on a future FF cam from Pentax, but it will only work in croped mode without apature control! We are already seeing this with the K-7 only having CA & lens correction on DA glass!
Just because certain features are limited to the latest "chipped" lenses does not mean that the full functionailty of older K mount lenses cannot be maintained, and even expanded, compared with the current crop (no pun intended) of dSLR bodies, e.g., they could introduce (and SHOULD introduce) a FF dSLR with a non-crippled K mount to provide full meter coupling with older manual lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by smc Quote
Screw mount has supported full frame from the beginning.....not the K mount. I'm sure there were more than a few that were furious with Pentax when they introduced the K mount....especially if you had just purchased a premium Takumar. You could still use it once the adapters came out but it the aperature pin was no longer used.

I'd be disappointed if the K mount was dropped...but not surprised. I'd prefer if we could still use the older lenses, but lets face it, much of the newer glass won't work (fully) with a FF camera, k mount or not.
K mount also supported FF from the beginning, don't understand that comment. Pentax will maintain (preferably even expand) backward compatibility, or they will die, since that backward compatibility is a big part of what keeps them in business, given their small current line up that doesn't cover anything near the lineup they offered in the past.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is no doubt in my mind that eventually Pentax will release a full frame camera. From the company's perspective, however, they need to sell cameras and lenses. All of those old lenses that people want to use on a full frame camera do them no good and in fact, they possibly steal sales away from current lens sales.

That FA 50 has jumped in price as has the FA 35, perhaps indicating that these are on their way out (actually I think the FA 35 is discontinued). I think Pentax will launch a full frame camera in a year to a year and a half with a new full frame line of lenses and an automatic crop of the DA lenses that aren't full frame.

Unfortunately, Pentax can't telegraph any of that right now, or it would steal sales away from current DA lines. There are already plenty of photographers that are hoarding old FA lenses for the possibility of a full frame release.
Disagree strongly that the old lenses "do no good" for Pentax. I've purchased two dSLRs but not a single DA lens, and will never buy a DA lens (useless on my film cameras, and unnecessary since I already have the lenses I need). If they had abandoned the backward compatibility, then I'd have simply gone to Nikon or Canon long ago. They can sell camera bodies, with the chance for upgrade sales on improved lenses later, or nothing, if they try to eliminate backward compatibility.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clarkey Quote
This is the part I understand least of all. The D700 can use older glass and has an aperture sensing ring to detect what themanually set aperture is. Why important?

If we are talking full frame and Pentax in the same sentence, Pentax could continue to make and sell existing design primes with no R&D cost and concentrate on the bodies to support it, and move more slowly with lens design.

QuoteOriginally posted by GLXLR Quote
A lot of people look at Canon and say ohh I want that 1Ds or w/e, but they will never get it. I think if Pentax makes a single FF it will make a lot more profit.
Agreed, and this would expand their market appeal, as opposed to limiting themselves to a narrow market segment that happens to be part of that most hotly contested (i.e., not a good strategy).
08-30-2009, 09:56 AM   #81
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To be quite honest, if Pentax can make a FF-like finder, I don't care much if the format is APS-C: it's actually kind of convenient for a lot of my purposes to have that bit more DOF flexibility in lower light. (APS-C happens to be darn handy for me: I like my FOV a bit tighter than most folks for any given purpose: this means that I can have speed and my favorite FOV in a smaller, lighter, and cheaper-for-quality lens. I'm sure on the other hand that the wider you like things, the more you would want FF. )

I think Pentax may as well wait till after another top-of-the-line APS-C model or so, before going full frame. They may as well get it just right when they enter that niche.
08-30-2009, 10:00 AM   #82
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Given the numerous opinions here i think some of you should see this Kodak interview:
Kodak sensors
08-30-2009, 10:02 AM   #83

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QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
Given the numerous opinions here i think some of you should see this Kodak interview:
Kodak sensors
you ass.

08-30-2009, 10:08 AM   #84
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I know . Just could not resist.
08-30-2009, 10:12 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
Given the numerous opinions here i think some of you should see this Kodak interview:
Kodak sensors
Now that is a confusing response. Or simply surreal.
08-30-2009, 10:16 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
From what I've seen (and granted, I have not used a K-7 yet), it appears that the AF/fps improvement is somewhat less than it seems since it slows down to ~3fps if you're tracking a moving subject.

I personally would not buy a "5.2fps" camera if I could only get near those speeds shooting something static.
It is not a case of the frame rate dropping if shooting a moving subject Vs. a static subject. Rather, it is a case of continuous autofocus Vs. Single autofocus. So you can shoot a moving subject as long as you have the DOF to keep the subject in focus while you blast away.
08-30-2009, 10:22 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
In the near future Pentax will anounce who their new partner will be. I think it will be a company like SIS, or VIA. Basically computer hardware builders that might be looking to expand their portfolio. They are companies that are experts with data flow, processing, and temperature control.

So, pentax users need to wait, and see. And during our wait, we will watch companies like Sony release the FF cameras us Pentax users were expecting.
Via Systems in St. Louis? They're in my building!
08-30-2009, 11:19 AM   #88
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I think a probably FF will be brand Samsung and not Pentax because Hoya haven't a real interest in making large investments with no immediate economic returns.

However I hope in the exit of a FF Samsung because I hope that in this manner finally begin to lower prices.

A huge viewfinder helps a lot during manual focusing and clean images even at very high ISO is a considerable help in different circumstances.
08-30-2009, 11:32 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by MikePerham Quote
It is not a case of the frame rate dropping if shooting a moving subject Vs. a static subject. Rather, it is a case of continuous autofocus Vs. Single autofocus. So you can shoot a moving subject as long as you have the DOF to keep the subject in focus while you blast away.
Either way, the end result is that I can shoot birds in flight with my 50D at 6 fps while clearly the K-7 is having issues performing at its peak fps when things are moving.
08-30-2009, 11:45 AM   #90
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It's interesting to me that people are calling the Sony A850 an affordable full frame option. At $2,000 or slightly lower, I still think they have a ways to go until they enter the affordable sphere, especially if someone wants to take advantage of some of the better Zeiss/Sony lenses while owning that camera. People argue that you can put cheap Minolta glass on it, but that's all manual focus is it not? When you add that factor in, I don't see the advantage the Sony offering would have over the D300s or the upcoming Canon camera, which are superior in every way except for the viewfinder and the full frame sensor -- while both being $200 cheaper to boot.*

There is a certain set of people -- such as wedding and studio photography businesses -- that $2,000 is affordable to, but these people are also often swayed by the dominance and complete systems offered by Nikon and Canon. I'm not sure how successful Sony will be with this strategy.

What the A850 is a sign of, however, is that affordable full frame cameras are just around the corner, probably in the next year or so. Pentax can still get a lot of mileage out of the K-7 by lowering its price over this time, but they should also be planning to release a full frame flagship in the same vein as the K-7 within that time frame, and that means starting to develop the lenses to be available with that camera upon its release.

The other option would be for Pentax to fully embrace the APS-C sensor like Olympus and Panasonic have with the 4/3 format. In this case, they should release more unique high quality lenses like the DA* 60-250 that don't have a full frame (old film) equivalent. They should also circle the wagons and try to dominate the $1200 and below DSLR camera market -- not necessarily in sales, but in the superiority of their products for the price they offer. Kind of like what they did with the K10D.

Unless Pentax is interested in another sensor format, these seem like the two options that will lead to them surviving an increasingly competitive camera market. 2010 will be an interesting year to watch.

* We'll see what this phantom Canon camera is priced at upon release.

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