Why so many expecting full frame form Pentax?

ytterbium · 08-28-2009, 08:22 AM

First of all i'm aware of the benefits full frame body can give, even if they are more or less significant to different users needs.
Second, i know a lot more things that are just remotely related to sensor size or most that have no connection at all.

So those two things are out of discussion and theoretically there is A LOT of other stuff where you can expect or wish for serious improvements.

What is more important, that Pentax have several times clearly stated that they are sticking to APS-C. All their lenses are crop designs (even if some can [barely] cover full frame). So why are so many people expecting it and moaning about Pentax not making one.
I don't see Canon or Nikon users asking for in-body stabilization that often, for example.

Maybe it isn't that simple to others, than it seems to me, but why wait for something that is known to not happen if there are other options?

Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 08:48 AM.

nixcamic · 08-28-2009, 08:28 AM

Because Samsung said they were going to start making FF sensors, and theres that rumored 85mm Samsung FF lens? Because people want FF to use their old lenses on but also want to stay brand loyal?

MikePerham · 08-28-2009, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by nixcamic

Because Samsung said they were going to start making FF sensors, and theres that rumored 85mm Samsung FF lens? Because people want FF to use their old lenses on but also want to stay brand loyal?

When I made the switch to an DSLR from my MZ-S, I made the paradigm shift in thinking as well, I am not quite complete in replacing all my lenses, but have totally commited to the APS-C format and invested in the DA* series of lenses. Still waiting for something at the extreem wide angle end and mid tele macro.

ytterbium · 08-28-2009, 08:42 AM

Well, you've said only one reason which has not been approved almost over a year, one rumor that hasn't even been confirmed by it self, not even talking if it's actually for full frame.
Others are just benefits (same as bigger VF, sometimes better DR, higher practical diffraction limit), but nothing that indicates that such camera could be made.

Do those old lenses become that bad and unusable on APS-C? Why aren't they expecting/requesting lenses with similar qualities ar APS-C focal lengths.

I believe something like good 30/1.4 would cost less than a full frame body and it would be a better investment.
Canon EF 24 mm F/1.4 L USM, Canon EF 20 mm F/2.8 USM, Canon EF 35 mm F/1.4 L USM, Sony 35 mm F/1.4 G - They all cost cheaper than 5D I or Sony DSLR A900, body only. Some even several times. And they are designed to cover full frame. Look at the Nikon 35/1.8

.
Don't you think much bigger inconvenience is searching unreliable and overpriced used markets for outdated lenses?

No wonder people does not get what they expect or Pentax doesn't respond to their whining, because they are expecting impossible (exaggerating here

). Why not wish for more reasonable and achievable things?

Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 08:52 AM.

K-9 · 08-28-2009, 09:05 AM

There's definitely a possibility that either Samsung or Pentax will venture into the FF market. There may be a reason why they have not stopped selling D-FA macros, the FA 50mm, and the FF limited primes. These will all be usable should they go to a full frame system.

It will only be a matter of time before full frame is the norm in all DSLR's so Samsung and Pentax need to either make them or jump ship. When full frame prices creep down to the $1000 range, it will be time to put up or shut up, won't it. There's rumors abound about $1600 full frame cameras on the horizon from other brands, so if Pentax can sell the APS K-7 for $300 less, they need to start upping the ante or they're doomed. No one is carrying them anymore, no adverts, and no exposure. Even Olympus and Panasonic DSLR ads are everywhere. They simply can't keep this up and stay profitable. They're only real saving grace is to come out with a full frame body, and soon!

stevebrot · 08-28-2009, 09:07 AM

Why expect a larger sensor?

Maybe because it makes sense from optical, technical, and marketing perspectives? At least those factors make sense to Pentax's competition and to the buyers of their products, if not to certain members of this forum.

What I don't understand is why, if a small sensor is such a good idea, we are not all using 4/3 format or smaller?

Steve

ytterbium · 08-28-2009, 09:24 AM

Don't expect the sensor to become much cheaper unless it takes completely different approach.

Different photosite design (ZnO nano tube for example), different production (qualitative smaller sensor stitching) etc can make it cheaper. Until that happens, manufacturers will be able to make better sensors, cheaper cameras (maybe FF pentaMIRROR and similar) and considering the new EVIL lines some significant improvement may happen to EVF much faster yielding some FF benefits obsolete. Not much about the sensor price.

Another factor is the form that FF tends to come in. They are bulky, complex photographing machines aimed at top price levels and pro or serious amateur users. Many need unobtrusive, reasonably priced, well built and fully functional unambitious daily tool. First one does not generate enough sales to creep into the entry level market. -Maybe this needs to be deleted. Lost my thought..

You say it makes sense. Why 645, APS-C, 4/3 and other formats does not make sense that much?
I mean those who can afford to buy something like 40d and some expensive L glass could afford (more like justify such expenses on camera) 5D aswell, still it seems that it does not make sense for them and there are lots of them.

Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 09:45 AM.

cousinsane · 08-28-2009, 10:26 AM

Well, a 30/1.4 on APS is more like a 50/1.8 on FF, in terms of field of view and DOF.

Originally posted by ytterbium

I believe something like good 30/1.4 would cost less than a full frame body and it would be a better investment.

ytterbium · 08-28-2009, 11:04 AM

You mean you need 30/1.2 or something to replace FF?

Anyways im getting off topic again. So what makes so many people wait and expect FF. Not expect as they wanted one for any reason (old lenses, brand recognition, better user experience) but expect as thinking that Pentax could make one.
And why expect something that's not even promissed, if you can get one already?

kenyee · 08-28-2009, 12:10 PM

Simply because the competition will eventually make that the common denominator as it was before. Eventually, APS-C will be relegated to the "entry level" market as APS-C was back in the film days.
I doubt Pentax will do this for another two years at least though...when you see the D700 come down to the $1200ish levels, I don't see there being much of a choice unless Pentax wants to keep play only in the $600-700 market where there probably is less margin than in their current $1200-1300 levels...

**GaryM** · 08-28-2009, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Why expect a larger sensor?

Maybe because it makes sense from optical, technical, and marketing perspectives? At least those factors make sense to Pentax's competition and to the buyers of their products, if not to certain members of this forum.

What I don't understand is why, if a small sensor is such a good idea, we are not all using 4/3 format or smaller?

Well, if Pentax goes away I would consider 4/3rds.

In regards to competition, Sony is going at the DSLR market the same way they went into the video game market: they are willing to lose a lot of money to gain market share. If people expect Hoya to lose money to stay in that market, they are kidding themselves. If FF is indeed the future, then Samsung is the only hope for K-mount users, but I'm betting that they move the opposite direction and go small.

So if you really need FF, you had better sell your K-mount gear ASAP, because you have disappointment in your future. I will keep checking the marketplace, my APS-C gear should last several more years at least!

ytterbium · 08-28-2009, 01:11 PM

Yes, i've leaned to the 4/3 side several times myself aswell. They just seem to be nice, their design reminds me of real cameras. Only thing that keeps me away is olympus high megapixel pushing.
If they had 5mpix sensor that didn't blured grass at iso400 same as my 150$ p&s does i'd be sold.

Hell the aps-c isnt even affordable yet. Only the freaks that are in photography or have too much money and some LBA/CBA can justify the cost of even the cheapest current DSLR. How many sub 200$ simple point and shoots are there with APS-C sensors?
Nothing fancy, maybe even no Av,TV and M modes just acceptable image quality for TRULY affordable price. So where are those cheaper sensors?
Or it is just because people consider getting first(left) instead of second(right) a good enough quality:

(ISO400->ISO80)

(ISO400->ISO80)

And this is far from affordable G10 and SX1IS cost almost the same as DSLR's. The situation is even worse for simpler cameras, that do not utilize "large" 1/1.7" sensors.

SteveM · 08-28-2009, 01:48 PM

If you look at Pentax over the years....35mm was always amateur (except the LX). That was fine as they had 2 pro lines...the 645 and 67. During that time, they sold 3 sets of lenses each proprietary to 35, 645 or 67. Pentax was highly respected as a company with the engineering and know how to make whatever it wanted.

What are they now?....well they make a great mid range camera. They make sure to point out it is "semi-pro" and not pro. They are no longer looked upon as having the ability to step up and make something serious. The 645d will help but not if it is a "Japan only" novelty item.

Pentax needs to produce a good FF camera that prioritizes pictures first and gimmicks second to help with brand recognition. They may not sell a lot of them, but it will help to sell their other camera lines in a big way.

I hate to say it....but from a Pentax perspective, they need to release that FF with a new LTD line of lenses that either drop the K mount, or are optimized for the new camera. They need to start selling lenses and their really isn't a good enough reason to do so right now with 50 years of glass to choose from.

Venturi · 08-28-2009, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by ytterbium

Hell the aps-c isnt even affordable yet. Only the freaks that are in photography or have too much money and some LBA/CBA can justify the cost of even the cheapest current DSLR. How many sub 200$ simple point and shoots are there with APS-C sensors?

That's really not a valid argument. Even "way back in the day" - you know the 70s and 80s - $200 didn't buy much of, if any, new film SLR and lens combo. And $200 went a whole lot further at the cash register than it does today. SLR photography has never been about affordability; historically some brands have simply been less painful in the wallet than others.

mithrandir · 08-28-2009, 01:55 PM

Someone is going to take the Foveon multiple layer sensor to the next level. Instead of different colors, it will be 3 layers with different sensitivities (overexposure, proper exposure, and underexposure). This will be the first true HDR sensor because it will do all three exposures simultaneously. They will either be combined in camera but more likely stored as three shots and combined in software later. Dynamic range is the next holy grail. Megapixels are already high enough. Maybe Pentax and Kodak will get together and make this happen.

08-28-2009, 08:22 AM	#1
ytterbium Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,076	Why so many expecting full frame form Pentax? First of all i'm aware of the benefits full frame body can give, even if they are more or less significant to different users needs. Second, i know a lot more things that are just remotely related to sensor size or most that have no connection at all. So those two things are out of discussion and theoretically there is A LOT of other stuff where you can expect or wish for serious improvements. What is more important, that Pentax have several times clearly stated that they are sticking to APS-C. All their lenses are crop designs (even if some can [barely] cover full frame). So why are so many people expecting it and moaning about Pentax not making one. I don't see Canon or Nikon users asking for in-body stabilization that often, for example. Maybe it isn't that simple to others, than it seems to me, but why wait for something that is known to not happen if there are other options? Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 08:48 AM.

08-28-2009, 01:11 PM	#12
ytterbium Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,076 Original Poster	Yes, i've leaned to the 4/3 side several times myself aswell. They just seem to be nice, their design reminds me of real cameras. Only thing that keeps me away is olympus high megapixel pushing. If they had 5mpix sensor that didn't blured grass at iso400 same as my 150$ p&s does i'd be sold. Hell the aps-c isnt even affordable yet. Only the freaks that are in photography or have too much money and some LBA/CBA can justify the cost of even the cheapest current DSLR. How many sub 200$ simple point and shoots are there with APS-C sensors? Nothing fancy, maybe even no Av,TV and M modes just acceptable image quality for TRULY affordable price. So where are those cheaper sensors? Or it is just because people consider getting first(left) instead of second(right) a good enough quality: (ISO400->ISO80) (ISO400->ISO80) And this is far from affordable G10 and SX1IS cost almost the same as DSLR's. The situation is even worse for simpler cameras, that do not utilize "large" 1/1.7" sensors. Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 01:31 PM.

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08-28-2009, 08:28 AM	#2
nixcamic Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Guatemala Posts: 354	Because Samsung said they were going to start making FF sensors, and theres that rumored 85mm Samsung FF lens? Because people want FF to use their old lenses on but also want to stay brand loyal?

08-28-2009, 08:35 AM	#3
MikePerham Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Prince George, BC Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 642	Originally posted by nixcamic Because Samsung said they were going to start making FF sensors, and theres that rumored 85mm Samsung FF lens? Because people want FF to use their old lenses on but also want to stay brand loyal? When I made the switch to an DSLR from my MZ-S, I made the paradigm shift in thinking as well, I am not quite complete in replacing all my lenses, but have totally commited to the APS-C format and invested in the DA* series of lenses. Still waiting for something at the extreem wide angle end and mid tele macro.

08-28-2009, 08:42 AM	#4
ytterbium Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,076 Original Poster	Well, you've said only one reason which has not been approved almost over a year, one rumor that hasn't even been confirmed by it self, not even talking if it's actually for full frame. Others are just benefits (same as bigger VF, sometimes better DR, higher practical diffraction limit), but nothing that indicates that such camera could be made. Do those old lenses become that bad and unusable on APS-C? Why aren't they expecting/requesting lenses with similar qualities ar APS-C focal lengths. I believe something like good 30/1.4 would cost less than a full frame body and it would be a better investment. Canon EF 24 mm F/1.4 L USM, Canon EF 20 mm F/2.8 USM, Canon EF 35 mm F/1.4 L USM, Sony 35 mm F/1.4 G - They all cost cheaper than 5D I or Sony DSLR A900, body only. Some even several times. And they are designed to cover full frame. Look at the Nikon 35/1.8 . Don't you think much bigger inconvenience is searching unreliable and overpriced used markets for outdated lenses? No wonder people does not get what they expect or Pentax doesn't respond to their whining, because they are expecting impossible (exaggerating here ). Why not wish for more reasonable and achievable things? Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 08:52 AM.

08-28-2009, 09:05 AM	#5
K-9 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: USA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,971	There's definitely a possibility that either Samsung or Pentax will venture into the FF market. There may be a reason why they have not stopped selling D-FA macros, the FA 50mm, and the FF limited primes. These will all be usable should they go to a full frame system. It will only be a matter of time before full frame is the norm in all DSLR's so Samsung and Pentax need to either make them or jump ship. When full frame prices creep down to the $1000 range, it will be time to put up or shut up, won't it. There's rumors abound about $1600 full frame cameras on the horizon from other brands, so if Pentax can sell the APS K-7 for $300 less, they need to start upping the ante or they're doomed. No one is carrying them anymore, no adverts, and no exposure. Even Olympus and Panasonic DSLR ads are everywhere. They simply can't keep this up and stay profitable. They're only real saving grace is to come out with a full frame body, and soon!

08-28-2009, 09:07 AM	#6
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Why expect a larger sensor? Maybe because it makes sense from optical, technical, and marketing perspectives? At least those factors make sense to Pentax's competition and to the buyers of their products, if not to certain members of this forum. What I don't understand is why, if a small sensor is such a good idea, we are not all using 4/3 format or smaller? Steve

08-28-2009, 09:24 AM	#7
ytterbium Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,076 Original Poster	Don't expect the sensor to become much cheaper unless it takes completely different approach. Different photosite design (ZnO nano tube for example), different production (qualitative smaller sensor stitching) etc can make it cheaper. Until that happens, manufacturers will be able to make better sensors, cheaper cameras (maybe FF pentaMIRROR and similar) and considering the new EVIL lines some significant improvement may happen to EVF much faster yielding some FF benefits obsolete. Not much about the sensor price. Another factor is the form that FF tends to come in. They are bulky, complex photographing machines aimed at top price levels and pro or serious amateur users. Many need unobtrusive, reasonably priced, well built and fully functional unambitious daily tool. First one does not generate enough sales to creep into the entry level market. -Maybe this needs to be deleted. Lost my thought.. You say it makes sense. Why 645, APS-C, 4/3 and other formats does not make sense that much? I mean those who can afford to buy something like 40d and some expensive L glass could afford (more like justify such expenses on camera) 5D aswell, still it seems that it does not make sense for them and there are lots of them. Last edited by ytterbium; 08-28-2009 at 09:45 AM.

08-28-2009, 10:26 AM	#8
cousinsane Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: madison Posts: 239	Well, a 30/1.4 on APS is more like a 50/1.8 on FF, in terms of field of view and DOF. Originally posted by ytterbium I believe something like good 30/1.4 would cost less than a full frame body and it would be a better investment.

08-28-2009, 11:04 AM	#9
ytterbium Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,076 Original Poster	You mean you need 30/1.2 or something to replace FF? Anyways im getting off topic again. So what makes so many people wait and expect FF. Not expect as they wanted one for any reason (old lenses, brand recognition, better user experience) but expect as thinking that Pentax could make one. And why expect something that's not even promissed, if you can get one already?

08-28-2009, 12:10 PM	#10
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	Simply because the competition will eventually make that the common denominator as it was before. Eventually, APS-C will be relegated to the "entry level" market as APS-C was back in the film days. I doubt Pentax will do this for another two years at least though...when you see the D700 come down to the $1200ish levels, I don't see there being much of a choice unless Pentax wants to keep play only in the $600-700 market where there probably is less margin than in their current $1200-1300 levels...

08-28-2009, 12:17 PM	#11
GaryM Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Montclair, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 426	Originally posted by stevebrot Why expect a larger sensor? Maybe because it makes sense from optical, technical, and marketing perspectives? At least those factors make sense to Pentax's competition and to the buyers of their products, if not to certain members of this forum. What I don't understand is why, if a small sensor is such a good idea, we are not all using 4/3 format or smaller? Well, if Pentax goes away I would consider 4/3rds. In regards to competition, Sony is going at the DSLR market the same way they went into the video game market: they are willing to lose a lot of money to gain market share. If people expect Hoya to lose money to stay in that market, they are kidding themselves. If FF is indeed the future, then Samsung is the only hope for K-mount users, but I'm betting that they move the opposite direction and go small. So if you really need FF, you had better sell your K-mount gear ASAP, because you have disappointment in your future. I will keep checking the marketplace, my APS-C gear should last several more years at least!

08-28-2009, 01:48 PM	#13
SteveM Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,294	If you look at Pentax over the years....35mm was always amateur (except the LX). That was fine as they had 2 pro lines...the 645 and 67. During that time, they sold 3 sets of lenses each proprietary to 35, 645 or 67. Pentax was highly respected as a company with the engineering and know how to make whatever it wanted. What are they now?....well they make a great mid range camera. They make sure to point out it is "semi-pro" and not pro. They are no longer looked upon as having the ability to step up and make something serious. The 645d will help but not if it is a "Japan only" novelty item. Pentax needs to produce a good FF camera that prioritizes pictures first and gimmicks second to help with brand recognition. They may not sell a lot of them, but it will help to sell their other camera lines in a big way. I hate to say it....but from a Pentax perspective, they need to release that FF with a new LTD line of lenses that either drop the K mount, or are optimized for the new camera. They need to start selling lenses and their really isn't a good enough reason to do so right now with 50 years of glass to choose from.

08-28-2009, 01:52 PM	#14
Venturi Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tulsa, OK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,636	Originally posted by ytterbium Hell the aps-c isnt even affordable yet. Only the freaks that are in photography or have too much money and some LBA/CBA can justify the cost of even the cheapest current DSLR. How many sub 200$ simple point and shoots are there with APS-C sensors? That's really not a valid argument. Even "way back in the day" - you know the 70s and 80s - $200 didn't buy much of, if any, new film SLR and lens combo. And $200 went a whole lot further at the cash register than it does today. SLR photography has never been about affordability; historically some brands have simply been less painful in the wallet than others.

08-28-2009, 01:55 PM	#15
mithrandir Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,895	Someone is going to take the Foveon multiple layer sensor to the next level. Instead of different colors, it will be 3 layers with different sensitivities (overexposure, proper exposure, and underexposure). This will be the first true HDR sensor because it will do all three exposures simultaneously. They will either be combined in camera but more likely stored as three shots and combined in software later. Dynamic range is the next holy grail. Megapixels are already high enough. Maybe Pentax and Kodak will get together and make this happen.