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10-13-2009, 05:59 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
And yes, Nostatic, I am a reader of Luminous Landscape. I'd say I've read 90% of the articles there. Furthermore, there is no reason to own a K-7 to know this article is rubbish. Your logic is bad and your insinuations are insulting.

Class A, I agree 100% with your post.
I apologize to those that are offended, and will retract my posts to avoid further strife. I'm not going to argue any more.

10-13-2009, 07:11 PM   #107
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OK, no problem. Let's move on and leave this travesty behind us.

LL have published some great articles but not all are up to that standard.
10-13-2009, 07:15 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
OK, no problem. Let's move on and leave this travesty behind us.

LL have published some great articles but not all are up to that standard.
Agreed. Certainly not his best effort, but I think he was distracted by the S2. Gawd knows I would be
10-14-2009, 12:19 AM   #109
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Taking a second look at the article, I think it annoyed me a little just simply because you could grab pretty much ANY camera, from entry level to semi pro, from any company, and come away with that weak conclusion if you didn't look into it properly. There simply aren't any bad DSLRs anymore.

So why bother accepting a camera for a review if you aren't going to do it right?

(And the fact that MR absolutely gushes over specific brand gear like Leica, and completely bends over backwards to downplay major issues. At least that backfired on him badly with the Leica M8)

10-14-2009, 12:49 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
My K10 fits me like a clove, and I love it with the grip also. I was very surprised, when I tried it, how good the small Km felt to me. So was looking forward to the K7. But for me, it wasnít a perfect fit. I will likely get it, but will probably prefer a grip on it most of the time, though I like a compact kit at times.
Possibly it could be the same for Reichmann, a shame they didnít have a grip for him to also try.
I guess this is where your YMMV a lot. I've only tried the K-7 for a few minutes in a shop so far, but it was very, very convincing. Somehow it felt better in my big hands than my K10D does. I also loved the silk smooth shutter/mirror slap. I think MR just didn't get this initial good feeling about this camera. Probably, it's not his kind of camera, maybe the LX wouldn't have been either. Fair enough.

QuoteQuote:
He writes about the lens aberration and distortion correction feature, and how most serious photographers will use the camera with it on. Does it work in RAW as well ?
The manual ( http://www.pentax.jp/english/support/man-pdf/k-7.pdf ) says: "When a compatible lens is attached and the file format is set to [RAW] or [RAW+], the correction information is saved as a RAW file parameter and you can select on or off when developing RAW images. (p.250)"
10-15-2009, 12:54 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I guess this is where your YMMV a lot. I've only tried the K-7 for a few minutes in a shop so far, but it was very, very convincing. Somehow it felt better in my big hands than my K10D does. I also loved the silk smooth shutter/mirror slap. I think MR just didn't get this initial good feeling about this camera. Probably, it's not his kind of camera, maybe the LX wouldn't have been either. Fair enough.
I should have articulated better. I was impressed by how responsive it was, and everything seemed a big upgrade from my K10. But was surprised that the fit wasn't as I had thought. (But then I also only tried it for a few minutes).
I'm fairly certain that I'm gonna get it at some point. I want that sensor, love the output from it, (particularly need it if Pentax goes Sony next time). And 5 fps, improved AF, etc. are also very welcome


QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
The manual ( http://www.pentax.jp/english/support/man-pdf/k-7.pdf ) says: "When a compatible lens is attached and the file format is set to [RAW] or [RAW+], the correction information is saved as a RAW file parameter and you can select on or off when developing RAW images. (p.250)"
Ok thanks a lot.
I still don't see the problem that MR tried to emphasize; if speed is of importance then one can do the PP at home. If not, then one can select maybe one of the options at least.

QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
The review is a joke as it completely fails to explain basic features of the camera or understand who it is made for. Two lenses are mentioned only to say that the author has no clue about them. He may as well have extended that same comment to the K-7 and ended the article in one paragraph.

Points are made in reference to external facts and biases that are not mentioned in the article, so a reader has no perspective on where the reviewer is coming form. It's a terrible article, plain and simple. If I was an editor I would never have let it pass.

Whether I like Pentax or the K-7 has no bearing whatsoever on this. In fact, I was quite critical of the K-7 in terms of ergonomics and agree with some of the assertions the author made.

And yes, Nostatic, I am a reader of Luminous Landscape. I'd say I've read 90% of the articles there. Furthermore, there is no reason to own a K-7 to know this article is rubbish. Your logic is bad and your insinuations are insulting.

Class A, I agree 100% with your post.
I actually found Nostatic post fair.
And it lead to a great reply also :
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/772993-post98.html
10-18-2009, 08:59 AM   #112
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I need some help to understand what it is going on here. The original post was begging for a K-7 to loan to LL to make a hands on. Part of the idea (I guess) was to have a review from someone who is considered authoritative and that gives non-overtechnified comments. Now people is rabid because he gave his personal subjective opinion and didnt stick to the technical lingo. When DPreview does the opposite people will whine about their lack of photographic pedigree and their pixel-peeper tendency.

I find many of the LL articles on equipment rather snob and self-complacent. I think that they write some articles with one hand in the keyboard and the other on their.... The pictures they show in the samples are rather unimpressive yet the people seems to love them and consider them great. But sometimes I think that they nail some points and I agree 100% with their comment on Pentax offers.

I have been a pentax user for a while and I am familiar with other systems too. I agree with the hands on comments for most of the points. Pentax is good but it doesnt really excel on anything in particular. If I had access to 5 systems and I want to go light I would probably take micro4/3. If I had a sport/wildlife shooting I would go Canikon, if I had a wedding I would go MF or Nikon (for the flash system), the same for product/fashion photography. I just dont see where would I want to use Pentax over the others. If you dont have access to 5 systems then Pentax is good enough to make almost everything you want (as does every other brand). I think that this is his point and one doesnt need to be a genious to see where he is going.

People who cant accept this have an issue with perspective and I am affraid that it is not MR's problem
10-18-2009, 10:05 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
Now people is rabid because he gave his personal subjective opinion and didnt stick to the technical lingo.
No, that's not the issue here. Please read what was said.

10-18-2009, 10:36 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
I need some help to understand what it is going on here. The original post was begging for a K-7 to loan to LL to make a hands on. Part of the idea (I guess) was to have a review from someone who is considered authoritative and that gives non-overtechnified comments. Now people is rabid because he gave his personal subjective opinion and didnt stick to the technical lingo. When DPreview does the opposite people will whine about their lack of photographic pedigree and their pixel-peeper tendency.

I find many of the LL articles on equipment rather snob and self-complacent. I think that they write some articles with one hand in the keyboard and the other on their.... The pictures they show in the samples are rather unimpressive yet the people seems to love them and consider them great. But sometimes I think that they nail some points and I agree 100% with their comment on Pentax offers.

I have been a pentax user for a while and I am familiar with other systems too. I agree with the hands on comments for most of the points. Pentax is good but it doesnt really excel on anything in particular. If I had access to 5 systems and I want to go light I would probably take micro4/3. If I had a sport/wildlife shooting I would go Canikon, if I had a wedding I would go MF or Nikon (for the flash system), the same for product/fashion photography. I just dont see where would I want to use Pentax over the others. If you dont have access to 5 systems then Pentax is good enough to make almost everything you want (as does every other brand). I think that this is his point and one doesnt need to be a genious to see where he is going.

People who cant accept this have an issue with perspective and I am affraid that it is not MR's problem
I think the criticism of Michael Reichmann's review is that he obviously gave the camera a very superficial workout, and even in his style of review this is not appropriate. If you are going to give a hands on review ...give the camera a reasonable workout, not a casual outing and then expect to understand it's strengths and weaknesses. Also you need to have a perspective of the intended use of the camera ...Reichmann does not do that. I do not think he understands the market for which this camera was intended. DPR on the other hand did a very fair review and do understand the market and potential users of this camera.
10-18-2009, 11:02 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by MikePerham Quote
I think the criticism of Michael Reichmann's review is that he obviously gave the camera a very superficial workout, and even in his style of review this is not appropriate. If you are going to give a hands on review ...give the camera a reasonable workout, not a casual outing and then expect to understand it's strengths and weaknesses. Also you need to have a perspective of the intended use of the camera ...Reichmann does not do that. I do not think he understands the market for which this camera was intended. DPR on the other hand did a very fair review and do understand the market and potential users of this camera.
I am affraid that people overestimates Michael Reichmann's reviews (and every review of every website or magazine if you ask me). They are usually wishy-washy comments from quick "affairs" with the equipment. If he likes the equipment he will use it more and will provide more input. If the equipment left him cold he will just give his opinion on his short relationship.

When you are familiar with multiple systems you kind of know how the cameras work and what are they capable of without having to expend years with them. If you need to go trough all the 300 pages of a manual to make a camera do the basics then that is a low point of the camera. If you need to make extra-efforts and go extra-miles to appreciate the value of the camera then this value should be in doubt. There is no more-no less.

I grown in digital with the Pentax system and I find it intuitive and the most comfortable I have used. But I have had affairs with Canon and Nikon and I have never had to expend more than 1-2 days to make the camera do 90% of what I needed it to do. That superficial contact is usually enough to me to know about the potential of the camera. If the performance doesnt surprise on the first weekend it rarely surprises later. You learn to fine-tweak things but the overall view should be fast. Multiply this by 100 and that is the experience that someone like Michael Reichmann, Phil Askey, Thom Hogan or whoever make this kind of "hands on" have.

He didnt gave Pentax a second chance because maybe he though it didnt deserve it. He has no-responsibility whatsoever with the brand or users. Why would he have to give it more time and effort to praise something that he doesnt feel like it deserves it? If one doesnt like his comments move on and dont consider him a reliable source of information. But bitching about some subjective comments by using subjective comments doesnt go anywhere.
10-18-2009, 11:18 AM   #116
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I think its Interesting He had to ask somebody to loan him their own K-7

I think its Interesting He had to ask somebody to loan him their own K-7

AND in the meantime Leica in Germany flew him out, put him up among other reviewers for a personal Leica Factory tour and testdrive of S2 & M9 and glass. They gave him lenses ,cameras and turned him loose.

Whereas Pentax sent him nothing at first, or not at all ???

Personally I think reviewers should buy gear the test,then sell it used if they choose but Leica didn't make him break out the credit card for his European Vacation & chit chat & hands on demo.
10-18-2009, 01:44 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
I grown in digital with the Pentax system and I find it intuitive and the most comfortable I have used. But I have had affairs with Canon and Nikon and I have never had to expend more than 1-2 days to make the camera do 90% of what I needed it to do. That superficial contact is usually enough to me to know about the potential of the camera.
I have used other brands also, and while I agree that you can get the hang of things pretty quickly, it does take a while to appreciate all the nuances of a brand if it is not one with which you are familiar. I have been shooting Pentax for many years and upgraded from a K10D to the K-7 and it took me more than a couple of days to really get to know the camera ...and I don't bother with video and only tried liveview in passing. Todays technology requires a bit more familiarization to get to know the product ...this ain't no MX!!

Also, and my major issue with this review, is his statement that... "The camera isn't compelling for any reason. In marketing terms it doesn't appear to offer a USP (Unique Selling Proposition." Well, the weather sealing and build quality are unique in this price range and the camera is designed as a field camera for the enthusiast. Also, who else offers a line of primes such as the limiteds and the K-7 was conceived with a view to use with the limiteds. His next paragraph is certainly indicative of his paradigm, he was testing 4 cameras concurrently and found himself reaching for one of the others because they offered some particular feature he wanted. I wonder if he considered taking the K-7 out with a limited instead of the Leica or Pany micro 4/3 camera for his street shooting; a whole new paradigm for Mr. Reichmann, but not for many who are familure with the brand and own some limiteds. Oh, and one other point: I think he must be pretty ham fisted and used to larger cameras ...I have never had a problem such as he describes with hitting the LV button inadvertently ...and I am 6' 2" and 240 lbs. But then, we are back to the casual outing issue.

His jack of all trades and master of none statement simply does not consider what this camera was designed to do ...be a solid well built and featured compact DSLR for the enthusiast for whom this is likely their only camera. Personally I don't think there is another brand with the unique qualifications of the K-7. And that is not just fan boy talk!
10-18-2009, 02:18 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by MikePerham Quote
I wonder if he considered taking the K-7 out with a limited instead of the Leica or Pany micro 4/3 camera for his street shooting; a whole new paradigm for Mr. Reichmann, but not for many who are familure with the brand and own some limiteds. !
I am sorry, but I think that the Panasonic+ lens is way smaller than the K-7. You are formulating the question backwards. Why should he take the K-7+limiteds when he can take the Leica/Panasonic/Olympus with lenses in a smaller package?

Weathersealing is oversold with Pentax. Olympus E-3, Nikon D300 and Canon 7D also have it in one way or another and it is enough for most of the real-life conditions. The only way Pentax excels is when you associate several characteristics and from a Marketing stand point it is a problem that pentax has. Pentax cant say, we have the smaller interchangeable lens camera. Nor can say we have the only weathersealed camera of the market. Nor can say we have the higher resolution camera. Nor the better high-ISO camera. Nor the faster AF. Nor the best flash system...... Pentax can only resort to: we have the smaller camera with weather seals, good IQ, reasonable high ISO, so so dynamic range and AF, regular performance, some good exotic lenses....

As for ergonomics to each its own. I have hypertrophied thumbs that push basically everything on their way. If I am going to do a review I wouldnt put that on the minus list of the camera since it is mainly my problem. But as I told before, it is the way the reviewer rolls. I have seen him doing the same with basically every brand on the market.

My point is that people on this forum is very anal with their equipment and dont realize that what they perceive as a sort of negligence or conspiracy, it is simply a problem of cognitive disonance. People with cameras have it. Parents with childs have it. Sports fans have it and so on.

To summarize my POV: yes, I think that the hands on report of LL is sloppy (as it is with most of the equipment reviews). Yes, I think that he is mostly right on his comments. No, I dont think there is a secret conspiracy or agenda.
10-18-2009, 03:19 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
Pentax cant say, we have the smaller interchangeable lens camera. Nor can say we have the only weathersealed camera of the market. Nor can say we have the higher resolution camera. Nor the better high-ISO camera. Nor the faster AF. Nor the best flash system......
Other brands cannot say these things for the majority of their cameras either. Still they are sold.

Very rarely, it is about being the the best in a particular aspect.


QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
yes, I think that the hands on report of LL is sloppy
I believe that's all people wanted to argue. Thanks for agreeing. I doubt anyone has a conspiracy theory.
10-18-2009, 03:33 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
I am sorry, but I think that the Panasonic+ lens is way smaller than the K-7. You are formulating the question backwards. Why should he take the K-7+limiteds when he can take the Leica/Panasonic/Olympus with lenses in a smaller package?
Because the Pentax has a larger sensor and hence better images than some of those brands. And it has excellent prime lenses, on par with Leica. And it is an SLR not a rangefinder, with all the inherent advantages.

It should be obvious you are comparing apples with platypus.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
Weathersealing is oversold with Pentax. Olympus E-3, Nikon D300 and Canon 7D also have it in one way or another and it is enough for most of the real-life conditions.
Pentax oversells nothing. In fact, one complaint that can consistently be leveled against them is their inability to properly sell any of their advantages. You are using hyperbole where it is least applicable.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
The only way Pentax excels is when you associate several characteristics
That's right. Pentax has targeted a sweet spot where several beneficial characteristics come together in synergy. I have no idea what your problem is with that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
My point is that people on this forum is very anal with their equipment
Any other gross generalisations you'd like to share?

QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
To summarize my POV: yes, I think that the hands on report of LL is sloppy (as it is with most of the equipment reviews).
So after all of this you actually agree? I think there are other battles more worth fighting.
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